Stealth and the likes...

ArchivedUser

This is most likely a personal gripe and worry, but I'm wondering how stealth is going to be handled in this game.

Traditionally in most MMO and games in general, someone hits their hide/stealth button and is completely invisible. On an immersion level, this itself tends to break it for the most part. Even in a high fantasy world, I'm a great believer in that magic should still be constrained by rules in some way and shape rather than just shrugging and going "a wizard did it."

What I would like to see, that is present in some other games and media, would be something more akin to an active camouflage where movement will disturb the environment/rain makes it less viable sort of deal. 

OR

Potentially just have it so people have to actually sneak around and use cover. Probably would only work if the entire game is in first person... but oh well. 

ArchivedUser

or maybe do something along the lines of assassin's creed black flag. Have areas where you can hide and be undetectable, that way everyone knows what to look out for, but still, advantages are given to those who take them

ArchivedUser

From what Ive heard it will be like the video, you go transparent which makes it harder for enemies to see you. They also talked about mages having detect lights which reveal hidden rogues for example.

ArchivedUser

So far from what we've seen it's going to look something like this.

ArchivedUser

I am fine with the the vanishing rogue. They have little defense in most games so taking away one of the advantages of being a rogue is not fair. There should be some detection but let the rogues vanish. I plan on being a mage so I know rogues tend to hunt that class. Which is fine to me. I burn from distance the rogue burns up close. The cat and mouse game gets my blood pumping. 

ArchivedUser

KingOelc said:

I am fine with the the vanishing rogue. They have little defense in most games so taking away one of the advantages of being a rogue is not fair. There should be some detection but let the rogues vanish. I plan on being a mage so I know rogues tend to hunt that class. Which is fine to me. I burn from distance the rogue burns up close. The cat and mouse game gets my blood pumping. 

I agree.  But those sneaky little pests do have their ways! I used to hang with a small group of rogues on occasion back in DAOC.  They taught me plenty.  I learned well how to be a stealthy healer without their abilities.  There's truly more to stealth then invisibility.   But don't weaken them. 

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

"...those sneaky little pests..."

I'm looking forward to being one of those in Ashes. 

ArchivedUser

I personally like the way stealth works for rogues in WoW, Wildstar, and Rift. This is the one mechanic that makes the class unique. Stealth, as it is implemented in GW2, is completely useless and open only to exploitation.

ArchivedUser

KingOelc said:

I am fine with the the vanishing rogue. They have little defense in most games so taking away one of the advantages of being a rogue is not fair. There should be some detection but let the rogues vanish. I plan on being a mage so I know rogues tend to hunt that class. Which is fine to me. I burn from distance the rogue burns up close. The cat and mouse game gets my blood pumping. 

I see you know the relationship between our types very well

ArchivedUser

I'd like two types of stealth,  the one they showed and also one where you can just hide in a tree or something, where no one can spot you,at least not easily. Also, don't show other players on mini maps. it'll throw the whole concept out of the window.

ArchivedUser

Stealth always seems to be one of THE most hotly debated topics in upcoming MMOs and with good reason; It can completely unbalance things.

Take the early days of DAoC as an example......The Midgard Shadowblade had an ability that, if you managed to kill the target from stealth in one shot, you REMAINED stealthed. I had a friend who could take out a group of unsuspecting players and they never got to see who killed them. Needless to say that "ability" was quickly removed from the game.

While I'm not suggesting AoC will have anything like this, it's things like this which cause people to cry for nerfs because the opponents never had a fair chance to fight back. This inevitably leads to stealth ending up relatively gimpy due to excessive nerfing.

ArchivedUser

I think they should allow full stealth if you are rogue/rogue. It would make sense for it to become stronger at that point. Now, if it needs balancing after that than so be it but there hasn't been an issue in previous games for me. I prefer it to be a toggle that drains mana while in use and defense goes down. I definitely do not think you should be able to attack while stealth. That's not fair. Archers should be the ones able to detect a rogue in stealth.

I'm always rogue but I know not to be bias and how to view things fairly.

At least it's not early lineage 2 where daggers could 1 hit a tank due to ignore pdef

We rogues are squishy... vanishing is the rogues way of survival

ArchivedUser

I'm sure this has already been covered but stealth in Ashes will be only for rouges primary archetypes and will not be a flavour adopted on rouge secondary archetypes. This means rouge/any archetype will have stealth but any archetype/rouge will not be able to stealth.
Far to early to go into details of length of stealth etc but the stealth will be more like "predator" stealth in the films when you can still see them if you are observant xD
We know aswell that some utility spells will let us climb etc so stealthing in trees or barrels what not would make a cool addition xD
I agree that you should not be able to attack whilst stealthed - it should be used for making tactical advantages whether it's exploring ahead or in castle sieges or to help you out in a sticky situation.
All the alpha and beta tests will help us find the right balance ^^

ArchivedUser

The biggest question for me is... Will we pull aggro while in stealth?

ArchivedUser

@WinterAssassin Rogues might be squishy but stealth is mitigating 100% of the dmg because you dont get hit. If you can do this repeatedly you basically have superior dmg and mitigation, which often makes imbalanced.

ArchivedUser

Neviathan said:

@WinterAssassin Rogues might be squishy but stealth is mitigating 100% of the dmg because you dont get hit. If you can do this repeatedly you basically have superior dmg and mitigation, which often makes imbalanced.

AOE should still hit, certain classes should have a skill to cancel a rogues stealth. This worked great in lineage 2 with no traces of being seen but mana wore out fast. It was a toggle. I think it should be the same except if a rogue is in combat stance than it can't be used to just escape a fight. If you hit or get hit you should have to wait a period of time before being able to enter stealth

ArchivedUser

WinterAssassin said:

Neviathan said:

@WinterAssassin Rogues might be squishy but stealth is mitigating 100% of the dmg because you dont get hit. If you can do this repeatedly you basically have superior dmg and mitigation, which often makes imbalanced.

AOE should still hit, certain classes should have a skill to cancel a rogues stealth. This worked great in lineage 2 with no traces of being seen but mana wore out fast. It was a toggle. I think it should be the same except if a rogue is in combat stance than it can't be used to just escape a fight. If you hit or get hit you should have to wait a period of time before being able to enter stealth

ESO also had this but its a very poor way to reveal invisible players unless the AOE has a huge radius. Especially if the Rogue knows how to play and uses objects to block the spells AOE. 

I would rather see Rogues be able to actively dodge attacks instead of having an instant stealth button which makes it easy for them get away after a failed attack.

ArchivedUser

I feel the rogue should be able to open an attack from stealth.  This is not unreasonable, as it's quite feasible to attack someone from the shadows without them being aware of your presence.  However, any attack should immediately take the rogue out of stealth, as they have revealed their presence at that point.

I think AoE damage should also take a rogue out of stealth.

ArchivedUser

Possum said:

I feel the rogue should be able to open an attack from stealth.  This is not unreasonable, as it's quite feasible to attack someone from the shadows without them being aware of your presence.  However, any attack should immediately take the rogue out of stealth, as they have revealed their presence at that point.

I think AoE damage should also take a rogue out of stealth.

I agree, its mainly the getting away in stealth that I'm bothered about. You often see Rogues opening from stealth and when the target is too tanky to kill they'll just flee from combat. The more tanky builds should get benefit out of the fact that they can outlast bursty opponents. Opening from stealth often has huge advantage so it should also have some disadvantage to make the whole stealth-mechanic more balanced.

ArchivedUser

I believe they've confirmed that there'll be different types of stealth, one being the "camouflage" type stealth.

As someone who primarily plays stealth classes in MMOs, I like the idea of having some kind of clues as to where the stealth player is moving (just don't make them too obvious).

Maybe something like faint footprints where the stealther is moving could be doable? This could make it possible to confuse opponents by standing still while stealthed instead, or backtracking your footsteps etc.

I also think that having some kind of short term true invisibility on a long'ish cooldown to supplement other types of stealth wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps only for rogue/rogue though?

ArchivedUser

Decimus said:

As someone who primarily plays stealth classes in MMOs, I like the idea of having some kind of clues as to where the stealth player is moving (just don't make them too obvious).

In WoW, I always became more alert when I heard the stealth sound near me.  I may not have been able to see the person, but it made me aware that they were near and put me on my guard.  Some sort of audio cue would be welcome, to me anyway.

ArchivedUser

I think WoW had the best Stealth Mechanics hands down - 
- 60 degree cone infront of the characters line of sight and at 5 yards distance will Auto see stealthed rogues
- Sound will pop up when Stealthed rogue passes by in 10 yards
- Lose track of stealthed targets in 2 seconds after they go out of the 60 degree cone
- Stealth Modifiers exist still in the game to improve stealth but not abuse the LoS cone.
- Standing still improves Stealth

 I wish there were more environmental play with stealth mechanics though, like shadows or dark areas hiding people well, while heavy lighted areas -showing- the stealth player for a brief amount of time. 

Also -Yus- to them making different types of stealth, as Camo' is different and should be useful in the light and dark, but harder to move like what hunters use to have for a short amount of time.

ArchivedUser

I personally think Rogue Stealth should be a slight shimmer which may reveal you if you are close enough. If they get the drop on you from stealth i think they should not be able to restealth for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds they can fade away and run if they want.

   The role of Rogues in Most games is to Burst down the enemy as quickly as possible with the eye on Killing them before all your cooldowns are blown. If you blow all your cooldowns you restealth and run until your cooldowns are up again. You as a rogue should never stand toe to toe with an enemy. That is the role rogues in MMOs should have.

Other classes should have ways to counter rogues as well. Be it AoE or Mage light or Caltrops and such to counter rogue stealth. If you catch a rogue and he doesnt kill you he is pretty squishy so you take him out.

ArchivedUser

Neviathan said:

WinterAssassin said:

Neviathan said:

@WinterAssassin Rogues might be squishy but stealth is mitigating 100% of the dmg because you dont get hit. If you can do this repeatedly you basically have superior dmg and mitigation, which often makes imbalanced.

AOE should still hit, certain classes should have a skill to cancel a rogues stealth. This worked great in lineage 2 with no traces of being seen but mana wore out fast. It was a toggle. I think it should be the same except if a rogue is in combat stance than it can't be used to just escape a fight. If you hit or get hit you should have to wait a period of time before being able to enter stealth

ESO also had this but its a very poor way to reveal invisible players unless the AOE has a huge radius. Especially if the Rogue knows how to play and uses objects to block the spells AOE. 

I would rather see Rogues be able to actively dodge attacks instead of having an instant stealth button which makes it easy for them get away after a failed attack.

If you read you will see why a rogue wasn't able to just "hit and hide". The guard/fighting stance was held after combat for a decent amount of time

ArchivedUser

@Archangelus
Thanks so much for reminding me of the Rogues in rift. Some of the most fun PvP in an MMO I've ever had. 

ArchivedUser

Diura said:

" I'm sure this has already been covered but stealth in Ashes will be only for rouges primary archetypes and will not be a flavour adopted on rouge secondary archetypes. This means rouge/any archetype will have stealth but any archetype/rouge will not be able to stealth. "

I'd hope to be use Abilities from all Class-Type regardless of what Race I choose
 ( but to an Extent ).
Thats what I'd thought when I'd heard " Augments " . yes, I do remember what was said. But Here's how I see it ...

This MMO will be be set in a World where Magic thrives & plays an active role in this World. As such, it would be ideal for a Beginner in this Magical World to have the chance to learn some Basic-Spells* from SpellBooks. 

In short, I'd hoped that each class will have the Utmost Basic of Abilities:
 such as a basic Healing Spell, Basic Water Spell, Basic Wind Spell, Basic Earth Spell, Etc ... . And then Being able to Branch from that if the Player Chooses it

 It'll be reminiscent of Other Class-Types - but will not " Outshine " others Classes/Races Combinations because " that " will be based on what your Character will be & based on the Class-Role too. 

i.e. The Freedom of Choice / " Jacks-of-all-Trades " the option of making your character however you want it to be. If not, then ... I'd hope for them to consider it

@Diura said:

Far to early to go into details of length of stealth etc but the stealth will be more like "predator" stealth in the films when you can still see them if you are observant xD

I'd Hope that Cat-&-Mouse feature would be utilized to the Fullest. I'm still hoping for the Environment to play a role in that - as I've mentioned in some other Posts.

All-in-All, have an opened mind about it ^~^. 

ArchivedUser

Decimus said:

" I believe they've confirmed that there'll be different types of stealth, one being the "camouflage" type stealth ...  "

I hope so too : 3

ArchivedUser

@Uranu5 said:

" ... I wish there were more environmental play with stealth mechanics though, like shadows or dark areas hiding people well, while heavy lighted areas -showing- the stealth player for a brief amount of time. 

Also -Yus- to them making different types of stealth, as Camo' is different and should be useful in the light and dark, but harder to move like what hunters use to have for a short amount of time. "

  There was a Discussion about someone want some abilities to have Environmental effects. this could assist in that. 

( think it was " Dry Firing " ? )

But i always thought that the  " Queue-Noises " would be caused by Leaves. Or another " dead-giveaway " would be a Gust of Wind or Water revealing where the Stealthed-Player is at.

( If you seen an Old Movie called, " Hollow-Man " ... this'll be better to explain Xp ... )

**YouTube has some Movie Clips for those who haven't seen it / don't remember it**