Concerning Ashes marketshare
Firstly, I want to thank everyone for making this community so awesome by supporting this game to the extent that you all have. I couldn’t be happier about the things Intrepid has in the works for this game and its shaping up to be the most exciting release of my lifetime.
I’m going to apologize about this being a long post, but I feel it’s important to give all the details to help understand my point of view.
I’m a 27 year old man who was blessed/cursed enough to start WoW on release and play it consistently for 6-7 years at what I would consider a “hardcore” level (IE minimum of 4-5 hours per day). Being part of that enormous community, in one of the most ambitious and successful MMORPGs ever created has left me dreaming of finding a similiar experience since I bowed out some time ago. I am VERY hopeful (as I’m sure all the other backers are) that Ashes will take its place as the most enjoyable gaming experience of my life.
While WoW was ambitious, well thought out, and challenging, those were not the main qualities that held my interest. Mostly, it was the wonderment and lack of understanding of what was to come. Experiencing the server getting it’s first level 60 characters and seeing those people get their first rare items from BRD. Idolizing the handful of the first people rich enough to afford their epic white raptors while I was still level 40 struggling to afford my riding training. Then later, the constant changes of strategy and specialization as people began to learn their classes, try new builds, and break the meta. The eventual spawn of arena and giving the community a numerical representation of PvP skill level.
All of that was huge for me, playing my first MMO, and I think Ashes offers all of those things in such abundance. No other projected MMO has ever come close. With the constantly changing world, we’ll be finding new things to discover about the game even years down the road as new nodes, events, quests, and world events continue to shape the world. It will be a long time before Ashes will get to the “min/max” obsessed play style that WoW is now so famous for, and that’s ****ing awesome. However, the shaping of the world will require a solid player base.
My concern for the game spawns from the things I loved about World of Warcraft. I believe WoW was as fun as it was because of its huge dominance over the entire gaming market. Something that I feel Ashes, undoubtedly, has the ability to do itself. Sadly, Ashes is being released 17 years later, and the market is in a much different state.
For the last 3-4 years with the growing popularity of Twitch, streamers, and Esports, I have been finding myself watching gaming almost as much as (and in some cases, more) than I have been actually playing the games. I look at games like League of Legends, who has dominated the market for a long time now, and look at its simplicity next to a game like Ashes. The competitive nature of it, FPS, and the new genre of battleground games are dominating the gaming market. I look at those games and ask myself “Where does Ashes fit into this?”
So my question is this. What is Intrepid’s market strategy for Ashes? From my point of view as someone who plays games, but doesn’t market nor design them, I see a few different avenues of approach.
1- Does Intrepid attempt to completely break the meta by simply creating a game so enjoyable to play that it’s lack of competitive tuning has no impact on professional streamers desire to play it? Thus, allowing it to reach high levels of popularity through what has become the norm (aka streamable games).
2- Does Intrepid plan to make the arena/PvP systems so competitive/in depth that people will flock to the streaming community to see how the “best players” min/max and strategize? Possibly even PvP tournaments down the road? Thus, achieving the same end as scenario 1.
3- Does Intrepid just say to hell with popularity? With the current interest of the community at this point (AKA more pre-alpha interest than I have ever seen), do we feel the game will function well enough at the mid-low popularity levels that you see most other MMOs on the market currently inhabiting?
4- Could RP be Ashes foot hold into the world of Twitch/Streaming? While I have seen it peak it’s head on Twitch lately in things like GTARP, it’s an avenue I’m not familiar with, but aware people enjoy. This could fall a little into the first scenario, as well. If Intrepid puts out an amazing game, there will be amazing role players that will flock to it and the streaming success of this game will fall on their shoulders.
I’m not sure if anyone else has been tossing this around, but I wanted to get my ideas out there for us to discuss. Feel free to enlighten me if you have some knowledge that I lack, or an idea for Ashes market approach that I’m too dim to realize.
Comments
Honestly fairly tough for any of us regular humans to speak on this stuff for Intrepid Studios. The impression that I have gotten, I could say:
They seem to be going for a kind of Theme/Box or Sand/Park and get some crossover of those that like freedom and PVP in sandboxes and those that like great PVE.
They usually answer your type of questions with: "We'll get this core game going and then if there is enough demand and support we will look at just about anything the community wants."
But I think you miss the point of why this game is so attractive to many of us. I can only truly speak for myself, but I've been around this community and talked to a bunch of people who all agree: Ashes is a game that is appealing to people who are fed up with what the market is like today and want to see a game reignites the genre.
Should Intrepid change who they are and what they are about at this point?
They shouldn't. They should make the best game they can, based on the ideals they have been guided by already. I would say they are aiming for a modified #1 on your list. That is to make a good game, that's popular, well received not just by shareholders but by players and to be first and foremost fun.
However,
Build/theory craft is part of why I enjoy MMOs. But it's up to the game design to prevent a single non counter over powered exploitation at the expense of viable diversity.
'Best at' rather than just best.
Esports and MMOs don't mix GW2 attempt case in point. It's financially nonviable distraction from core game values, balance and development.
Streaming is only as good as the personality behind the game.
Ashes is attempting to reinvigorate the MMO genre that was disenfranchised before your 17years* sample period. It has already got a playerbase that has been promised the ideal*MMO over decades but have had those promises fail time and time again mainly due to greed and the regurgitated same content with a different label.
It is principally an MMO designed by MMO players and industry veterans who appear to be making the game they want to play and not the game that will make them quick money.
And by doing so If Ashes delivers will find its core audience who respect such values.
Perhaps not just prevent but exploitation but also to react to such things and counter them in a timely manner.
I too consider myself quite a theory crafter. But my drive to theory craft isn't so much to find the best builds to rule them all but to optimize my personal builds to what I consider peak performance.
Min-max obsession is a personal opinion I believe. Those players appear in any form of RPG. So I think right from the get go, the players who're interested in such will definitely start providing content on that topic regardless of whether the game caters for it or not.
@Blanxx
The 4 options you gave are a little extreme in their views. (either all in on fun casual balance or all in on balanced competitive pvp). It sounds like a cop out, but Ashes will most likely fall somewhere in between.
I'm sure a stream will get a lot of views if it's going to show the first destruction of an enemy metropolis. Aside from that, I'm not sure if there is a need for professional competitiveness for a game to be popular on stream.
The value for streamers is in the uniqueness of each server. The nodes locations and types will vary from server to server so the unlocked content will never be the same.
Yeah, I share your opinion on this @neviathan, If the game is fun, people will stream, people will play.
To anyone who read what i just wrote. you are an amazing person for taking time to read what i had to say. Here is a heart for your troubles
Intrepid Studios isn't trying to be an old school mmo, it's taking qualities of what old school mmos used to be and applying to the game development. They talk about massive multi player as being a genre and it is. They thought about the players and what it is like to be a player and incorporated those ideas into a philosophy when designing their game. (The four pillars) Every development decision made is looped back to the four pillars and if it doesn't support a pillar it will not be included in further development.
Intrepid Studios are not giving us a world and a story to explore but are MAKING a world that responds to activities that players do - constantly changing the story and allowing us to create the world we want it to be.
pvp/pve/RP all in one? Yes it works and it's the way it should be - the characters are us and we will want to achieve things and well if we want to achieve then we need to be up for meaningful actions across all player style experiences. That is the risk reward behaviour that Intrepid talk about. It's a human thrill to be involved in a risk/reward scenario.
What kind of players will it attract? Well imo people that want to experience a world that is reactive to you and wants a risk/reward experience that is meaningful.
If you want to rp sure you can! But in risk reward situations you may need to pve/pvp to achieve what you want - or you won't get
want to only pvp - sure you can! But in a risk reward situation you may need to pve/rp to achieve what you want - or you won't get
want to only pve? - sure you can! But in a risk reward situation you may need to pvp/rp to get what you want - or you won't
Dont like it- this is sadly not the game for you
I can assure you though dipping your toe in all of the risk/reward scenarios will create a strong sense of community and passion for your world that will give you the old school mmo feeling you desire.
I hope people will be able to see that Intrepid Studios are not doing something old - but something new - with the community at the heart of their interests. It will be difficult to get people's head around the concepts - but once it clicks - they'll see that Ashes of Creation could be their next home
I think it's a bit unreasonable to say things like "I just want to RP in Ashes without the risk of being ganked." If that's the dynamic you want, then there are plenty of other MMOs that offer this right now. Most of us are here because Ashes promises to avoid the stale and repetitive content and the cash grabbyness of other MMOS.
Re-reading it, I do sound kinda harsh, but from your post I got the impression you were hoping Ashes would conform to fit current trends, which is something I really hope they don't do!
If this was not your intent then I misunderstood, and carry on!
The games you gave as examples, League of Legends, FPS games, new genre of battleground games, are all entirely PvP based games geared to esports and competition. MMORPGs that are about story and world building are not really suited for that. So, to answer your question, Ashes of Creation probably doesn't really fit in with these. And that's OK. Ashes should be what it is and not try to mold itself to fit into this.
The success of Ashes of Creation will depend almost entirely on the players enjoying the game, not on its Twitch audience.
I think Ashes has already gained market share.
Ashes was started by a small, independent group of like-minded gamers. Their like-minded ideas, attracted like-minded consumers. I do not want them to plan on becoming the dominate marketshare game.
I would be perfectly fine if it stayed small, capitalizing enough of the market to be financially content.
When games get too big, they have to satisfy too many different personalities and lifestyles. Right now, Ashes is in a good place with the like-minded gamers that they've attracted.
I get the feeling from @Intrepid that they're among those artists, and I applaud them for that.
Now, do I hope they make enough money to remain financially viable as they support this game through many years? Yup. Do I believe this means it must be the same as every other game out there? Not on your life. As was stated above, this has been a historical KS, and there's a reason for that. There're a lot of us out here who've been waiting (im)patiently for this game.
And yes, I hope they maintain that
1. Most every one of us has been starving for a good game. One that we can sink our teeth in.
2. Steve and Intrepid drew us here with their dreams and plans of developing Ashes of Creations. It was those ideas that we all were drawn to.
So in the greater scheme of things, If Intrepid sticks with their plans and ideas and doesn't listen to every cry baby out in the gaming world and try to satisfy everyone they will have a game that goes far.
I still stand by my statement that Industry forced Esports is detrimental to core MMO values and separates community ideals that break the population. I am able to see that making an MMO a "hyper competitive game" is not genre appropriate, and is detrimental by way of isolation and siphoning funds to a individual offset. it is a futile pursuit that has been documented by attempts in other MMOs trying to tap into a market it shouldn't.
If the the community wants to take a competitive element of the game and grow it themselves then that is great.
But falling into line with flavour of the month competitive/streamed games is just mocking the MMO.
Ashes is not breaking boundaries, it is merely fixing a broken genre.
Probably it hearkens back to old battlegrounds. Once upon a time, one could hybridize. So you'd go into BGs with your hybridized build, and that rogue who thought he could kick your arse suddenly found out he couldn't ... then went crying.
Next thing you know, Class X has been restructured so that it's easier for said rogue to kill Class X. But wait, there's more! Not only has that restructuring affected PvP, but it's also impacted (sometimes severely) PvE!
But who cares about carebears anyway, right? But then, when Class X is nerfed, and rogues temporarily rule the BGs, Class X says "Hey, man, you nerfed me! Rogues are OP now!"
And on and on and on and on .... you get the idea, right?
With a system as diverse as Ashes seems to be leading toward, it's eminently possible that there will be some who can kill rogues with no problem, and some who can't. Some mages will be OP while some will be ... lacking. Some Tanks will be completely badazz while some simply won't. How would one truly balance something that can be so highly modified? And how can that balance be done in such a way that it doesn't impact PvE, with constant nerfs which affect people who don't, regularly, PvP?
Just trying to understand this a bit more, and perhaps clean the evil taste that balance currently leaves in my mouth.
Just wanted to point out that registered users might not be a terribly good way to track popularity since accounts are free.
The highest funded Kickstarter mmo title has quite a good amount of fuel for hype building though. It'll make most mmo players at least consider the game when it releases in my opinion.
Back to the op, I've always found mmos unsuitable for esports since player skill is usually not the only factor for PvP. Items, levels, boosts/potions. The playing ground isn't fair since time and commitment must be put in to ensure your build is top notch and not just your hand eye coordination. But this doesn't mean it'll never happen, perhaps one day an esports mmo (guild wars was close) will come by and show us how it's done.
In the end, opinons are opinions. While there might be some similarities in why we are here in Ashes, the definition of what makes the game successful will be wide and contentious. It's great to share opinions and respect one another as long as we all remember that Intrepid will make their decisions based on what they think is best for the vision of the game, not because they want to make us happy (though in my case, it's current they same thing atm).
I wish all contentious discussions in other forums could be done in the manner this community is doing now. It brings me joy and confidence in the community.
Okay... I've digressed a little. First post of the day, haven't had my coffee. Carry on discussing!
Yeah but there are a lot of players who will play the game but don't believe in kickstarter as well.
Based on the large and terribly scientific sample size of about the 20 or so of my gaming friends.
Hahaha. So they're all estimations. But yes. Linked accounts will be more accurate than just registered users in my opinion.