I agree with Steven: Daily quests / log in rewards often become chores

ArchivedUser

I'm glad that Steven is currently against adding a daily, weekly, and monthly quest system to the game. I hope that he doesn't change his mind.

I'll admit daily quests etc. are a good way of getting players to log in but they also work against a game for players who like to put games aside for a while and then come back later. If you fall too far behind, you just don't feel like coming back.

For instance, I want to pick up GW2 again but I feel incredibly unmotivated when I think about the fact that I've missed years of daily, weekly, and monthly rewards (not just the general ones but also guild weeklies, pvp rewards, etc.).  

Especially in the case of Ashes, there'll be enough to do with the living world node system and epic quests that we won't need calendar quests (which tend to get grindy in most MMOs anyway).

Anyway, please share what you think if you feel one way or the other about the topic.

ArchivedUser

@Solarion , More or less, yeah >.<

ArchivedUser

Agree in that it becomes a chore and not fun.

ArchivedUser

Yeah, I'm against anything that turns into a chore and that feels mandatory. 

 I usually try to make posts that facilitate discussions through questions etc. but this was one of those topics that was just "huff-puff get it off my chest"  

If Ashes ends up with a truly living world, I think time spent away from the game will be punishment enough and time spent in the game will be enticing enough to keep players logging in (as opposed to dragging them in with log in rewards and dailies).

Example: While you were away from the game for a couple of weeks, a dragon swooped in after the node went from a village to a town. You'd be sad that you missed out but you can hear about the event from your friends and they'd feel awesome for having been there during the battle.

ArchivedUser

I'm hoping that Ashes is fun enough and the community experience is so exciting that I want to log on every day for years. I want to have that feeling again of being excited to get home to log on, see my guild and community and have fun exploring ^^ I hate grinding and I hate dailies. I always have and always will. I'm glad everything in Ashes will be meaningful so even if I can't spare much time I know I'm contributing to the greater community

ArchivedUser

Having some small login incentive is always a nice, insidious way of getting players into the habit of daily logins. Even if it's for a quick 10 minute session. 

ArchivedUser

Daily style chores... I mean quests are usually the start of me becoming disinterested in playing a game anymore when it gets to a point where I feel like I need to go and help a city worth of peasants do the stuff they can't be bothered doing for a quest capped currency every time I login rather than catching up with guildies and seeing where my time is best spent furthering the guild (and subsequently myself).
I'm not against "go and kill 10 x to retrieve 5 y" but would rather do it because of a game function such as gathering for crafting, reagents, xp, general currency etc. and done because it is what you decide to go and do, not because you would feel penalised for not doing it.

ArchivedUser

Solarion said:

I'm glad that Steven is currently against adding a daily, weekly, and monthly quest system to the game. I hope that he doesn't change his mind.

I'll admit daily quests etc. are a good way of getting players to log in but they also work against a game for players who like to put games aside for a while and then come back later. If you fall too far behind, you just don't feel like coming back.

For instance, I want to pick up GW2 again but I feel incredibly unmotivated when I think about the fact that I've missed years of daily, weekly, and monthly rewards (not just the general ones but also guild weeklies, pvp rewards, etc.).  

Especially in the case of Ashes, there'll be enough to do with the living world node system and epic quests that we won't need calendar quests (which tend to get grindy in most MMOs anyway).

Anyway, please share what you think if you feel one way or the other about the topic.

This is pretty much why I am on extended hiatus from ESO. I only had so much time during the week to do things and by the time I had sorted through my e-mails, done my resource gathering, my crafting writs, run my daily quests and posted ****** for sale at my 5 guilds, I was out of time.

ArchivedUser

Agreed diong the same daily quest every day for years is stupid content.

ArchivedUser

Valkeries said:

Agreed diong the same daily quest every day for years is stupid content.

The sad thing is many of us did just that. 

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

Valkeries said:

Agreed diong the same daily quest every day for years is stupid content.

The sad thing is many of us did just that. 

Yup sadly because it was needed to get items and gear

ArchivedUser

PlagueMonk said:

This is pretty much why I am on extended hiatus from ESO. I only had so much time during the week to do things and by the time I had sorted through my e-mails, done my resource gathering, my crafting writs, run my daily quests and posted ****** for sale at my 5 guilds, I was out of time.

Preach to the choir!

We have real life if we want to burn out - we don't need a MMO to do that for us. I mean people who want to #nolife it in a MMO are fair game and can do whatever they want but a MMO shouldn't be designed for burnout and tedium.

Now, I haven't played ESO, so I can't fairly criticize it but what I say applies to MMO design in general.

ArchivedUser

I understand daily quests as being irreconcilable with the philosophy behind AoC. They are repetitive, while Ashes should give players the feeling of a dynamic and always changing world.

All quests should be unique and affect the world in a way or the other.

ArchivedUser

Yep hate them, but I would like something like "Daily/Weekly/Monthly Goals" so as a combat class they could be, defeat XYZ monsters/Players, protect caravan etc.  For people more in to "life skills" it could be supply XYZ leather goods to the market, mine 2 tonnes of ore, etc.

ArchivedUser

I think that dynamic quests can be made to "feel" unique, by combining a set of plot elements based on the player's choices and RNG.

I'm not sure how Intrepid are doing this exactly, but for example, say you pick up a quest from your local marketplace that offers a reward for investigating a late shipment of goods that the NPC was expecting to be delivered. 

You accept the quest then go looking for the delivery wagon. Here is where the questline starts to branch:

1. It's a long trek, and you have to be mindful of cutthroats and the like on the way (PC and NPC), but you find the wagon and it's perfectly fine. It's just late. You go back and report and you're done. Quite boring, but okay maybe this option will be more weighted toward lower level players.
   
   
2. You find the wagon and it's destroyed. Goods scattered everywhere. You can pick what's left and keep them, or you could dutifully return them to the quest giver and claim your reward (and also your positive karma, if Intrepid heeds our prayers and implements a PvE karma system!).
   
   
3. The wagon NPCs are under attack by other NPCs, who you can either join or help defend against, kind of like mock caravan training. Other players may be there too, fighting on either side of this battle, who might've been told by their quest givers that the wagon was stolen and they have to rescue the stolen goods. 
   
   
4. There is no trace of the wagon on the road, but if you are observant enough you'll have noticed signs of a scuffle and wagon wheels leading into the forest. Again you have a choice to hunt down the wagon, encounter whatever or whoever has taken it; or just run back to town and say it's lost.
   
   
5. Etc...

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

I think that dynamic quests can be made to "feel" unique, by combining a set of plot elements based on the player's choices and RNG.

I'm not sure how Intrepid are doing this exactly, but for example, say you pick up a quest from your local marketplace that offers a reward for investigating a late shipment of goods that the NPC was expecting to be delivered. 

You accept the quest then go looking for the delivery wagon. Here is where the questline starts to branch:

1. It's a long trek, and you have to be mindful of cutthroats and the like on the way (PC and NPC), but you find the wagon and it's perfectly fine. It's just late. You go back and report and you're done. Quite boring, but okay maybe this option will be more weighted toward lower level players.
   
   
2. You find the wagon and it's destroyed. Goods scattered everywhere. You can pick what's left and keep them, or you could dutifully return them to the quest giver and claim your reward (and also your positive karma, if Intrepid heeds our prayers and implements a PvE karma system!).
   
   
3. The wagon NPCs are under attack by other NPCs, who you can either join or help defend against, kind of like mock caravan training. Other players may be there too, fighting on either side of this battle, who might've been told by their quest givers that the wagon was stolen and they have to rescue the stolen goods. 
   
   
4. There is no trace of the wagon on the road, but if you are observant enough you'll have noticed signs of a scuffle and wagon wheels leading into the forest. Again you have a choice to hunt down the wagon, encounter whatever or whoever has taken it; or just run back to town and say it's lost.
   
   
5. Etc...

Archangelus said:

I understand daily quests as being irreconcilable with the philosophy behind AoC. They are repetitive, while Ashes should give players the feeling of a dynamic and always changing world.

All quests should be unique and affect the world in a way or the other.

@Archangelus @lexmax
This is how Ashes is going to work really. People need to remember that Ashes is all about choices and change that impacts the greater community.
There are three types of questing (one of my guides I still need to write up -will do this week xD)

1. Tasks
2. Narrative 
3. Events
 

Tasks are node based things that are lower narrative that will help you in your day to day sessions.

Narrative quests are the bigger complex storylines that relate to the main story and are interesting to play.
Events are quests triggered by an action in the community that has now altered the world or caused a change.

There will also be some social quests (likely social organisation based quests) that will allow you to unlock certain achievements such as wearing particular equipment.

I have an information thread coming soon so keep eyes peeled ^^

ArchivedUser

Solarion said:

For instance, I want to pick up GW2 again but I feel incredibly unmotivated when I think about the fact that I've missed years of daily, weekly, and monthly rewards (not just the general ones but also guild weeklies, pvp rewards, etc.).  

Games with Dailies are usually content staved. I played it too from beta but as Solarion said you get to be incredibly unmotivated thats why I left it as well.

ArchivedUser

NightshadeRaven said:

Games with Dailies are usually content staved. I played it too from beta but as Solarion said you get to be incredibly unmotivated thats why I left it as well.

This is what I was getting at with my example. With dynamic events, quests or tasks, weekly/daily activities will feel unique each time because the elements will branch in different ways, randomly and/or based on player choices. This will keep them fresh even when no new content is being released.

ArchivedUser

I love this concept. I enjoy games but I hate feeling tied to them and then I end up resenting them if I feel I must be there every single day.

ArchivedUser

@Diura;
I skimmed through the wiki just now. You have a good grasp of the information out there on Ashes's questing system. Nice break down   I'll have a look around to see if any threads exist on the the quest system, as that'd be a nice topic to discuss in depth.

@lexmax;
I also think karma would be cool even though Steven is leaning away from it. It'd be a shame to only have corruption in PVP and no karma system for PVE choices.

ArchivedUser

To reiterate my stance on this topic:

I'm adamantly against daily tasks as set by the game. E.g. You log into the game on June 19, 2020. The game tells you slay 25 boars and collect 50 iron bits if you want the reward for June 19. Ugghhh. Tedium. Thankfully, Ashes is heading in a different direction from these kind of MMOs.

With a dynamic quest system (node tasks, world events, and personal narratives) and the living world that results from that system, our daily experience of logging into the game will vary and that will be incentive enough to log in and participate in whatever is going on. There should be no predetermined "daily" of anything by the game's system. We should be determining what constitutes our daily activities when we log into the game.

ArchivedUser

Edit: I made a separate thread on the general discussions section for IRL seasonal events.

ArchivedUser

I similarly feel special events can be a nice distraction, just don't give me some unique event "coin" where I end up earning 2 short of getting what I want and then get stuck with them in my inventory for an eternity in the hopes one day they might be useable again (although they never are).

ArchivedUser

@RhinoFireweaver
Yeah, I know that feeling all too well lol. No tokens and no mandatory sense of participation, otherwise that'd be just as bad as having daily tasks and log in rewards.

Edit: I made a separate thread on the general discussions section for IRL seasonal events.

ArchivedUser

@Solarion aw Thankyou very much all information I use I take from the streams x if you have any useful information do pm me x much appreciated xD

ArchivedUser

Yeah, Daily quests is why I quit Perfect World.. Get too far behind in a PvP game that requires the dailies, and everyone just destroys you. With no hope of you getting back on equal footing. 

ArchivedUser

I understand why you don't like dailies but I don't see them as any different than any other content provided they aren't required to do. Dailies should be something to do as opposed to mandatory.

When I'm away from a game, whether it's a day, week or month(s) away,  I'm missing everything that's going on anyway. I'm missing guild events, I'm missing raids, I'm missing groups, I'm 'falling behind' in levels, I'm missing dailies.

I think, for me, it was a change in mindset toward dailies. Using ESO (which I play for something to do, it's not particularly great), the crafting writs. There's no real requirement there for me to actually do them. I get benefit, sure. It helps keep me current skill wise (gives me a good exp boost towards the skill). But in the end if I don't do them? I remain where I was. If I don't group (pretty much the norm in ESO), I remain where I am.

Again, I think the issue (for me) with dailies is when it's required content, not optional. ALL content should be optional depending on what you want to accomplish. Some people do not want to raid (or don't have the time), fine. Allow them to progress at a slower rate or in a different way but progress none the less.

That being said, it popped in to my head that with Ashes of Creation (I can't use AoC, that's Age of Conan in my head) having seasons I look forward to daily quest of snow shoveling, leaf raking, and mowing the lawn..  

ArchivedUser

Hunh. If I stop logging in for a couple weeks, I'm just done playing - typically because my characters are no longer progressing through new content.

I'm not interested in re-reading the last chapter over and over anbd over again while I wait for a sequel. When a sequel does come out, I will probably read it. Doesn't matter if I've missed a sequel or two...I can always catch up.

But, I don't play MMORPGs because I want a bunch of rewards... especially not the rewards that dailies offer.

ArchivedUser

Canno said:

I understand why you don't like dailies but I don't see them as any different than any other content provided they aren't required to do. Dailies should be something to do as opposed to mandatory.

As you say, it does come down to whether or not the content is required or optional. When dailies were first implemented to GW2, they were basically the best way to get top tier gear. It was incredibly punishing if you didn't log in and do your dailies. 

When I'm away from a game, whether it's a day, week or month(s) away,  I'm missing everything that's going on anyway. I'm missing guild events, I'm missing raids, I'm missing groups, I'm 'falling behind' in levels, I'm missing dailies.

I get that you're saying falling behind is falling behind (a spade is a spade dealy) but I would argue that missing dailies can exacerbate everything else you're already missing at an exponential rate. Missing raids and guild events etc. is certainly punishing but if raids are anything like traditional MMOs, you wouldn't have been guaranteed any items anyway. You'd need to get lucky with drops and rolls. Under such a traditional system, missing 1 month isn't bad. However, if missing 1 month means you're down 30 in-game daily tokens that are used to buy top end gear and awesome vanity items, I'd say you probably would never catch up to your friends and guildies once you fall behind. 

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a counter-argument, as I believe we're already on the same page with regards to dailies not being mandatory. I just wanted to post a follow-up

ArchivedUser

They definitely aren't a mandatory thing, but it many games it's a good form of income, or it has even been used to increase the level of certain zones or parts of a game by completing them. I find them a grind and I believe they should negate the amount of dailies to as little as possible. 

While I think the aspect of eliminating dailies is a great idea. I think it would be tough to do in all cases; especially in a game (such as this) that will have the level up system for the nodes. So rather than have a "daily" quest, it could be some form of bi-weekly quests, or per day season quests. Offering a different different daily quests on each day of that season. Which I believe would be weekly assuming seasons stay as a weekly event.