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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Ashes - A Sandbox or a Themepark?
ArchivedUser
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It appears that there will be elements of both Sandbox and Themepark in this game.
Simplistically, sandbox being the player generated outcomes and responsive environment and Themepark with suggestions of quests and various scripted activities.
So which way would you like the pendulum of design to swinging more towards; Sandbox or Themepark?
Simplistically, sandbox being the player generated outcomes and responsive environment and Themepark with suggestions of quests and various scripted activities.
So which way would you like the pendulum of design to swinging more towards; Sandbox or Themepark?
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Ashes rebels against that kind of rigidity, in their game. There will be quest lines, dungeons, and raids. But, you can tackle them in any order you choose, so long as you accept the inherent risks. Or, you don't have to tackle them at all. If you don't care about the lore, or quests, you can engage in the PvP elements of the game, node building, or devoting oneself, full time, to building an economic empire (gathering, processing, crafting, buying, selling).
What's makes Ashes a 100% sandbox game, is that the choice to do whatever you want, is yours. No "rails".
Interesting - because Steven refers to Ashes as a themebox.
In WoW, I leveled without killing stuff - didn't feel like I was on rails.
Hi Steven, thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I’d like to run through a few basic MMO systems questions for people who may not yet be familiar with Ashes of Creation, jumping to more specific questions based on what we know about Ashes later on.
The main promise of Ashes is a dynamic world that changes in reaction to player activity within the game world, with cities that rise and fall, quests that appear, disappear, and move about, all based on what the players are doing. It’s tempting to characterize Ashes as a sandbox based on that level of player agency alone, but I’m curious – what type of MMO do you consider Ashes of Creation to be?
Honestly, I am hesitant to call Ashes a Sandbox. Not because of what Sandbox is supposed to mean, but rather because of how studios have developed “Sandboxes” over the past decade. You see, many developers have used the sandbox concept as an excuse to cut a lot of curated content, in exchange for gimmicky mechanics that allow for player-generated content. In Ashes, we have the opposite approach in development. In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take. I like to compare our design philosophy, to that of a “Choose your own adventure” book. Our story is Epic, and you have the ability to be an integral part of that story. Dictating the outcome, in a meaningful way.
Fair enough. "Themebox" it is. I'm cool with it.
As far as you leveling in WoW, jst by killing mobs, that's cool, too. Though, "just killing mobs" wouldn't progress you in any significant way, except leveling. The items that dropped from regular mobs would not raise your item level, in order to enter the relevant dungeons. And, the dungeons were where the story, set up for players, progressed...outside of quest chains. Hence, "rails".
Granted, you could buy appropriate gear off the Auction House, or have it gifted from friends, but that wasn't how the devs of WoW intended the game to be set up. They set up a linear path, and expected players to, more or less, follow the "script". Hopping from one dungeon, to the next, etc etc. Hence, "themepark".
Though, with the little I know of you @Dygz, from reading your posts, I know how much to love to be the one to "swim upstream" so to speak. All good, though.
There were no dungeons I was interested in that required an item level.
Story comes simply from adventuring - like successfully escaping mob attacks without killing the mobs. And sneaking past hostile guards in order to reach a harvesting node.
Perhaps you mean that dungeons were where the lore was?
The first thing I typically did in WoW was run from the Forsaken starting area over to the Tauren starting area...I constantly felt like I was off the rails.
My main character in EQ2 leveled only wearing starting rags - armor was increased via jewelry and weapons.
So, where you're saying, "if you don't care about the lore, or quests, you can engage in the PvP elements of the game, node building, or devoting oneself, full time, to building an economic empire (gathering, processing, crafting, buying, selling)."
That has been true for me in EQ2 and WoW. That's nothing new with Ashes.
What's new with Ashes is we contribute to world change with everything we do.
Harvesting or participating in Religion or government all helps progress the nearby nodes. Same with exploration.
Typically, I focus on exploring as much of the world as possible as quickly as I can.
Each time I level, I gain as much xp as I can merely from exploration.
In Ashes, in addition to just sneaking through dungeons for mere exploration, I'll probably also be able to disarm as many traps as possible and/or unlock as many doors as possible.
We can gain xp just from defending our homes from Spider Demon attacks.
Or we can help build as many cities as possible.
All kinds of stuff to do that aren't tied to levels (I can do all of the above at any character level) ... in addition to questing.
However, I think I understand well and good the failures of other MMO's from Word of Mouth in having too much freedom versus too much direction. Ashes aims to fix it and I back them and jump on the bandwagon because the concept of having both is needed in the genre. A game that has everything for everyone, the PvE'rs, PvP'rs, Crafters, Explorers, RP'ers (Last for best :P), and those who just want to mix it up! Hopefully a game where people can 'Stay in their lane' without feeling lonely for it, hence the need for almost everyone to work together (Sorry Rp'ers... We know we have our own play to follow).
Yeah, my bad. Missed the "not" part, about killing mobs.
The gist of my post, however, still stands. Themepark games, like WoW or EQ, were set up for players to, primarily, experience the game, by going from designated quest, to designated quest. That's why they had all those huge yellow (!) all over the place. So players could easily identify the sign posts, leading them through the "themepark".
Could you go against this? Yes. But, there is no question that it would be much harder for a person to progress going outside the rails, in a game built with rails. Unless you do specific quests, or have specific items, you were locked out of certain content. Take WoW's Scholomance, for example. It was locked, unless you completed a quest chain, to get a key. I would classify that as an example of "railed" content.
I agree that stories can come from adventures. They can also come purely from the players own mind, absent of any game exploration. I've RP'ed plenty of times, with friends, making up stories about what our characters were doing in the world, with no correlating event from the game. Just pure imagination.
I also agree that one of the ways Ashes is different than WoW, or EQ, is that the actions players take, effect the world in many differing, and tangible, ways. Also, instead of punishing players for going outside "intended content", players have free agency to do as they please. No restrictions. Though, that doesn't necessarily mean "easy", or consequence free".
Quests are the rails. Yes. Otherwise it's all grind.
EQNext and Ashes game design provides both quests and narratives and PvP conflict to create a novel blend of themepark and sandbox which should greatly reduce grind.
I think where our respective perspectives diverge, is what we define as "rails" in a game. If I'm hearing you correctly, you see quests, themselves, as rails. I see the linear fashion in which the quests have to be completed, in order to progress, as the rails.
Either, or, I think it's safe to say that our hopes are that Ashes avoids the themepark, end game grind, that most current MMO's have fallen into.
[24:20] Is the game going to be leveling through quest or grind?
No grind. Grind sucks. We hate the grind.
Need to disassociate the word “grind” with “time”
There’s a lot of things that involve time that can progress your character
Repetition won’t be a part of that progression
We want enough stuff to do in the game where you “can’t do them all”
Want people to see the fruits of their effort while they are doing things.
We want it to be fun, we don’t want it to be work