Magic and science nodes, how will they be related?

I may have missed Steven talking about scientific nodes but at a certain point I guessed that they will be a thing.
Yet I am quite stubborn at wanting to be a mage/caster character and, while science may fit more with an engineer kind of class (like those from Warhammer), mages are the knowledge seekers of the bunch and should be likely to pursue scientific advancement, alongside itheir quest for knowledge.

It feels a little bit contradictory because magic and science are somewhat opposite, yet, for as much as I know, neither I can find a better scientist than a mage, strictly class-speaking, neither I can, yet, distinguish magic and science as things, being magic, to me, just unknown science.
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Comments

  • Are you saying that I wont be able to mine and blacksmith with a mage and that it has to do magic or science? Weight of the materials are all that should stop me doing that.
  • I know in one of the Q&As they did, they mentioned how advancing your scientific nodes would allow fast-travel/teleportation at max level. So maybe they can involve a mix of the two?
  • Science doesn't oppose magic, science studies how things affect the world.

    If magic is one such thing, then it can be scienced. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Relwoh said:
    Are you saying that I wont be able to mine and blacksmith with a mage and that it has to do magic or science? Weight of the materials are all that should stop me doing that.
    By no means. I am not asking what will you do with you mage but what a mage is supposed to do, coherently with the lore.

    Is magic magical? Is it scientific? Both? Therefore should scientific nodes, in theory, attract mages? If no why? If yes, how much? To the poin that the majority of said scientific nodes' populations will be composed by mages?
  • Depends on the citizens of the specific node.

    In general, a Scientific node should attract all types of characters.
    One major factor will probably be the augments and perks a Scientific node offers that a Mage would find advantageous.

    How might those augments and perks impact race and sub-class?
    Religion may also play a factor. How does the patron god of the node -if there is one- feel about arcane magic?

    We don't have enough details to have much of a clue.

  • There is an Sci-Fi+Fantasy anime called, The Irregular at Magic High School.

    In the anime, magic is seemed as a part of science and technology, they channel the existing energy with technological devices, There are scientist working how to encode and decode magic and integrate it with technology.
    A scene from the anime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58vF-D-H0V8&t=11m05s

    In real life, we also do not know how space-time interacts with mass like in gravity, but can only  theorize it. Scientist usually explore the effects rather than how it actually works, like our scientist do not also possess a definite answer to all known and uknown. Because nailing a function around the world is really difficult and theorizing always falls under philosophy.

    So much like gravity, we will not know how it works but we know how to utilize it. And like in the aneim, it'll be a source to develop humankind. It's gonna be used like electricity.


  • Magic and science are not the same but magic can be used in science and science can be applied to magic... now where are those crumpets
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Difference between mundane physics, arcane magic and divine magic.
    Keep in mind that the world we're leaving when we first travel through the Divine Gateways had no magic.
  • Upgrade time 


  • It's a long story, but I'll give you the short short version of how they are related.  Science is the third cousin to magic on it's great great grand-earths side.

    But seriously, I believe they are one in the same.  What people mistake for magic is actually just awesome science at work.  But in a fantasy game setting, I do like that they are completely separate things and in a way give the mundane a way to throw a little magic.
  • Again... the world that we're coming from had no magic, but did have science.
    So, we know that magic is significantly different than science.
  • If we start studying magic and understand it's source and how it works and we're able to replicate it consistently... Doesn't that make it science? 

    Heh. 
  • the study of magic is a science *mind blown*
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    If we start studying magic and understand it's source and how it works and we're able to replicate it consistently... Doesn't that make it science? 

    Heh. 
    physics v arcane v divine.
    So, not really, but...
    That's really going to be about semantics and the connotations of science.
  • Dygz said:
    If we start studying magic and understand it's source and how it works and we're able to replicate it consistently... Doesn't that make it science? 

    Heh. 
    physics v arcane v divine.
    So, not really, but...
    That's really going to be about semantics and the connotations of science.
    I still say my pope hat will win wars over the vile scientists 
  • We will make it so!
  • I'm personally thinking that since divine and arcane sources (assuming arcane and divine sources are consider different ala Dnd)  of power occur in the world. They aren't necessarily considered supernatural any more. They're all just natural parts of the world of Ashes. 

    So they could be different fields of science. Arcane physics (how does levitation overcome gravity etc), divinity and healing in medical science etc... If they are going to be "natural occurances" and the study of the subjects and the effects on the world will be systematic and organized (a mage's college, herbal lore etc)

    I would personally find it odd if a scientist wouldn't want to study those effects and learn more about them. 
  • This is actually the TL;DR ... :astonished:
    • From a game systems point of view, nodes seem to be intertwined. Each node type is needed in various locations for unique buffs/functions they provide. Too many or few of a node type, or unevenly clustered node types will weaken the ZOI as a whole.

    • Adjacent nodes will automatically lock out neighboring nodes through normal advancement. This will lead to natural instabilities in the node system, resulting in internal conflict.

      - To delevel nodes that are too abundant 
      - To unlock content behind adjacent lower level nodes
      - To protect trading routes and improve regional or local economies
      - To improve transportation, military effectiveness and border protection
      - For political reasons or guild power plays

    • Node buffs will play a part in the game, but there's so little information I can't even wildly speculate at the moment. *lowers tinfoil hat and backs away*
  • I think they should be separate. I like to see magic and science being two different aspects of the game. They are both quests of knowledge, but maybe the different nodes have a different idea of which path will lead to the betterment of all the sentient races. It does not necessary mean that they are at odds, but it certainly does not help build better relationships.

    "Mages are the scientists of the game, scientific nodes are full of magical advancements" will be something like the world of Eberron from Dungeons and Dragons, where magic works in a very industrial kind of way. Using elementals to power transportation, or compartalizing magic into forms where mundane people can actually use it.

    "Mages are in fact the opposite of science, something that all other professions developed in order to oppose magic" sounds very much like the game Arcanum, where a character's magic and technological affinity are opposing forces, and a player with strong magic tends to cause the failure of machinery and a player that has a strong technological (steampunk) affinity tends to cause magic to fizzle. 


     
  • Science is magic until its secrets are discovered.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    On the world we're coming from, science is not magic because magic doesn't exist there.
    In the real world, the arcane doesn't exist. We just have physics. 
    On the world of Ashes, the arcane and divine exist and they are not the same as physics.
  • Oh for sure, Divine and Arcane won't be the same as Physics, just like how Biology and Physics aren't the necessarily same (though there can be some overlap in bio-mechanics). 

    What I meant is, from the perspective of the player in the world of Ashes, those 2 spheres, Divine and Arcane, will probably have definite, consistent, effects on the world that can be observed and experimented on. I'm speculating there'll also be limits to what magic can do in the world also, leading to new scientific "laws", "theories" and "principals" of magic, which people will study, explore and eventually make a science out of.

    science
    ˈsʌɪəns/
    noun
    • the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.



  • science
    ˈsʌɪəns/
    noun
    • the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
    Key word there is physical world. Magic is generally associated with the metaphysical world.
  • lexmax said:
    science
    ˈsʌɪəns/
    noun
    • the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
    Key word there is physical world. Magic is generally associated with the metaphysical world.

    Perhaps you mean supernatural? 

    Magic and divine would have definite physical effects on the world hence that portion can definitely be tested and studied. 

    The nature of the world of ashes has magic and divinity. Since it's part of that "natural" world, I'm not sure if I (as a character in the world of Ashes) would consider it super natural because death by magic missile will be as real/normal to me as death by broad-head arrow. 


  • Perhaps you mean supernatural? 

    Yes, I'd say supernatural is pretty synonymous with metaphysics
    Metaphysics (Oxford definition)
    Abstract theory with no basis in reality.
  • lexmax said:
    Perhaps you mean supernatural? 

    Yes, I'd say supernatural is pretty synonymous with metaphysics
    Metaphysics (Oxford definition)
    - Abstract theory with no basis in reality.

    Yeah, but magic is part of the in-game reality. So it no longer becomes abstract nor is it metaphysical because it is, essentially, real. 

    Btw, not all metaphysical discussions are about the supernatural. It could also be about conscious/subconscious though (but this is just me rambling off point, ignore this point.)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Small personal point of view: magic has always been unexplained science to me as how science is magic explained.

  • Perhaps you mean supernatural? 

    Magic and divine would have definite physical effects on the world hence that portion can definitely be tested and studied. 



    Oh FFS, it is not like you are going to call in a bunch of scientist for help if you have a problem with ghos..... Wait. 
  • Yeah, but magic is part of the in-game reality. So it no longer becomes abstract nor is it metaphysical because it is, essentially, real. 
    Then why have Scientific and Divine as two different node types if science could describe both physical and metaphysical elements?
  • lexmax said:
    Yeah, but magic is part of the in-game reality. So it no longer becomes abstract nor is it metaphysical because it is, essentially, real. 
    Then why have Scientific and Divine as two different node types if science could describe both physical and metaphysical elements?
    Yeah! Might as well throw military in there, since there is a science to war and fighting as well. Making money is a science as well, just sayin'. 

    Hmm, I inadvertently stumbled to a certain logic. The node types exist because there are people who believe that a certain subset of knowledge is enough to tackle the problems of the world. 

    The Economic believes that money can solve everything.
    The Military believes that might can solve everything. 
    And so on (I'm feeling really lazy today).

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