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Newly discovered variety in tanking and healing...?
ArchivedUser
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I'm kinda just thinking out loud here, so don't mind me if it seems that I ramble a bit... I did at least save the more heavily theorycraft-centric stuff in that forum section though. 
So (based on the last question of today's stream) it seems there will be far more tanking and healing options, outside of the Tank/X or Cleric/X setup, if I correctly interpreted what they said on stream today. Prior to today, I was assuming 8 varieties of each. Tank or Cleric primary, and whatever secondary. I assumed this because they would have the base skills designed for that role specifically. Secondary roles are supposedly only there to augment the primary skills, right? Or did I miss something where it was stated that some primary abilities would actually be changed to completely different functions and/or new ones would be added?
Either way, Steven and Jeff stated that any primary could be viable as anything, depending on what they choose for a secondary.
That means 15 different varieties of Tank and 15 Healers!
(Tank primary x 8 secondary choices) + (7 other primaries with tank secondary) = 15 choices to tank.
With this information being made known, how much more important do you think it is to have the ability to switch between multiple secondary specs available per character?
You're no longer just dialing in on your single primary role when you pick a primary class, but rather also being allowed to spec into a viable tank AND/OR healer as well. So many more options than I originally thought possible...
So (based on the last question of today's stream) it seems there will be far more tanking and healing options, outside of the Tank/X or Cleric/X setup, if I correctly interpreted what they said on stream today. Prior to today, I was assuming 8 varieties of each. Tank or Cleric primary, and whatever secondary. I assumed this because they would have the base skills designed for that role specifically. Secondary roles are supposedly only there to augment the primary skills, right? Or did I miss something where it was stated that some primary abilities would actually be changed to completely different functions and/or new ones would be added?
Either way, Steven and Jeff stated that any primary could be viable as anything, depending on what they choose for a secondary.
That means 15 different varieties of Tank and 15 Healers!
(Tank primary x 8 secondary choices) + (7 other primaries with tank secondary) = 15 choices to tank.
With this information being made known, how much more important do you think it is to have the ability to switch between multiple secondary specs available per character?
You're no longer just dialing in on your single primary role when you pick a primary class, but rather also being allowed to spec into a viable tank AND/OR healer as well. So many more options than I originally thought possible...
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As long as I'm hearing their statement correctly, you should be able to be a viable healer.
"There are different types of Tanks: There are Tanks who are really good against magic or good against physical damage. There are Tanks who are evasion Tanks. There are tanks who are straight damage mitigation Tanks. There are reflect damage Tanks. There are aggro-oriented PvE Tanks. There's a lot of different types of a class."
The devs said they would be adding utility skills. Which should mean there additional non-combat roles for a Tank.
Wall and Lasso sound like fun abilities. I would especially like to see Elves using those abilities instead of Shield Bash.
What I understood Steven and Jeffrey to say is that all 64 subclass combos would be viable.
Keep in mind that the heal augments from Cleric secondary archetype are self-only rather than group - so, it's not quite the same thing as them being viable as designated Healer for a group.
And, we won't really have load-outs for swapping secondary load-outs - we probably will be able to swap...but, they're thinking about that requiring a quest. And probably means we still will have progression to acquire the augments, rather than all the augments becoming instantly available.
But, again, good question to ask the devs.
What I understood is that Tank/Tank, Cleric/Cleric are the archetypical "roles". But each of the 7 hybrid roles from choosing one of the other seven classes as your secondary will also be viable.
If my understanding is correct, then there will only be 8 viable tank builds, 8 viable cleric builds etc. Nothing in the conversation hinted to me that you will be able to viably tank with a Mage/Tank hybrid etc.
Like the info that Tank/Cleric would be self-heals only. But what if that mechanic was simply one they were keying in on because of that specific class combination, and the rest were a bit more open?
The reason I'm keying in on that was the question at the 55:55 mark on today's stream:
Q -
SconeOfDoom: "Will every class be viable in every role, or will they have one role they excel at?"
A -
Jeff: "They will...it depends on your spec. Right? Like...It ultimately always comes down to that. We've got the archetypes. Those archetypes, if you double down on them, they're going to be...that's their role, right? If you wanna hybrid out, um, you can hybrid out, and you will be viable. As long as your build supports that and your gear supports that."
Steven: "The...I think the primary tenet to talk about is (momentarily distracted by Jeff creature) the ultimate point there is whether or not classes are gonna be viable with different builds outside of what normally would be attributed with a role for certain classes, and the answer is: Yes, you will be viable, absolutely. Depending on whatever customization you're gonna go down that route, you will have a place that is important in any class/party composition."
Jeff: "And again, you're gonna have to build toward that, it will take effort. But it is something that we...is really important to us."
That question and answer seems to indicate that any primary class can guide their character to fill any role, if they use the correct secondary class, proper gear, and proper skill choice. That's where I'm getting the idea that it is gonna be more flexible, @ChibiBree, @lexmax and @Dygz .
I'm definitely on board with that wall skill they were talking about! Being able to drop a physical wall in place is a very interesting mechanic!
Yeah, that's exactly how I was thinking things were going to work, based on previous information. Seemed pretty straight forward.
But...they said you can be viable in a different role, if your gear matches that role.
If you're just changing what your ability augments are, why would the mention of changing all your gear have been such an important and doubly stressed note? I'm still leaning towards the idea that they truly mean any primary class can be any role, if they gear and spec properly.
Their answer to that question didn't outright say "Well, you have to be a tank in order to tank." Or "Yes, there are tanking classes and there are healing classes, and there are support classes, and there are dps classes."
Which is how we all thought it to be before.
The answer was, basically: "They will all be viable in any role, with the right effort."
I mean...I can see them backpedaling a bit and saying it didn't come out quite right, but I'm so hoping for my conclusion to be correct.
After rereading I think I agree with your interpretation. Being viable doesn't necessarily mean viable tank or healer, but useful in some way to the group.
Edit: hmm I see their earlier comment about the paladin. It's hard to see how that comment is consistent with third viability discussion.
But Steven's answer seemed pretty definite:
I'm not a huge fan of this due to it then being confusing especially in the context of "Cleric/Tanks vs Tank/Clerics". I'm aware of the paladins being self healers etc, but with the new information Steven has given in today's Live stream, it would seem that it might be possible for a tank/cleric to gear up and perform the role of a healer in the party and be "Viable" as a healer?
Customization and having flavor, is that be that every class has the ability to heal myself (Tank primary , Cleric secondary)?
See...that's the info I've been going on for a while now, but the process of game development means change throughout the process. That's why my brain picked up on it as a possibility. Also, as you said, viable is a wide term. it could simply mean that they could pick up the duties in a pinch. Maybe as an off tank or off healer is what I was thinking.
Maybe you have it right tho. Maybe they do literally mean outside of major content with a small group and free range adventuring.
Example (using made up information, non factual, based on a whim):
1. you have to be level 40 to gain a quest to obtain a secondary class.
2. you are level 45 before you complete the quest (some distractions while working on it, not to mention it was hard and took you multiple attempts to complete).
3. now at level 49 you decide you picked the wrong secondary class and want to change it, you decide to complete the quest to get the secondary class you already chose removed.
4. you are now level 51 when you get the item to perform the secondary class removal, you have completed 6 levels while using this secondary class.
5. you activate the item.
6. you are now single classed and level 48.
7. you are now eligible to complete ANY secondary class quest to gain a new secondary class, knowing you will probably gain another level or 2 before completing that, and will most likely end up as a level 50 character that just obtained their secondary class.
Viable does not mean that a Py'rai Rogue/Tank is going to be viable as the primary Tank for a group.
An Empyrean Tank/Cleric will be a viable Tank, but will not be viable as the primary Healer for a group.
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That Py'Rai Tank is going to want to focus more on Dexterity and Intelligence to be an evasion Tank rather than trying to focus on Strength and Stamina to maximize Shield Bash and soaking damage.
Taunt and Wall and Lasso will probably be better for a Py'Rai Tank.
Shield Bash and Shield Cover will be better for the Ren'Kai Tank.
Neither of them will be viable as the party Healer. But, they will probably be able to use the utilities of whichever archetype they choose as their secondary.
This is my understanding too if we're talking about viability in the general context and of course, based on our previous understand of what has been shared through live streams etc.
However... The context in which Steven and Jeffery were using viability was "viability of a primary class to take on the role of another primary class".
Which seems to now imply that "An Empyrean Tank/Cleric will be able to customize him/herself into a viable (but not necessarily optimal of course perhaps) healer for the group" as opposed to the previous understanding that a "tank/cleric is still a tank but has some self heals".
That would be like a rogue/rogue trying to evasion tank. They could probably evade long enough to stay alive and maybe keep threat long enough to keep a small group alive for a good bit as well. Definitely not a viable tanking option though.
To me, a viable tank means that they can successfully tank for a group, with enough effort put in. Among the best? Not necessarily. Viable just has to be good enough for it to be a valid choice, and not bad enough to be on the edge of failing with one or two mistakes.
Alas...we won't truly know until it can be clarified. I have no horse in the race, per se, I'm just excited about the possibility of even more diversity in choices. What boils down to 1 class in 8 that can tank, and another 1 in 8 that can heal, seems somewhat bland. There are 6 dps classes, with soooo much variety between them. I feel this would further limit the small number of people interested in volunteering for healing/tanking, as compared to the already small numbers in other MMOs.
Time will tell, eh?
My personal preference leans towards less flexibility in swapping class roles thus forcing player dependencies, but having flexibility in your primary class role isn't without its good points either.
Each class has multiple roles. There are many types of Tanks.
And really pertains to the quote I posted earlier:
"There are different types of Tanks: There are Tanks who are really good against magic or good against physical damage. There are Tanks who are evasion Tanks. There are tanks who are straight damage mitigation Tanks. There are reflect damage Tanks. There are aggro-oriented PvE Tanks. There's a lot of different types of a class."
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QUESTION: Will every class be viable in multiple roles or will each class have one role they excel at.
JEFFREY: It depends on your spec. Ultimately it comes down to that. We got the archetypes. If you double down on them, that's their role, right? If you want to hybrid out, you can hybrid out and you will be viable. As long as your build supports that and as long as your gear supports that.
STEVEN: The ultimate point is whether or not classes are going to be viable with different builds outside of what would normally be attributed with a role for certain classes. And the answer to that is yes. You will be viable. Absolutely. Depending on whatever customization, you're going to go down that route. You will have a place that is important in any class party composition.
JEFFREY: And, again, you're going to have to build towards that. It's going to take effort. But, it is something that is really important to us.
The dev statements above do not mean that a Tank/Cleric can fill the role of a party Cleric or that the Tank/Rogue can fill the roll of a party Rogue. Rather it means that a combo that is not Tank/Tank will still be a viable Tank - Tanks have multiple roles.
You will not break your character by choosing something other than a Ren'Kai Tank/Tank.
A Py'Rai Tank/Rogue can be a great party Tank, but will have to build towards that with gear and wise use of racial stat progression, augments and primary ability focus.
I could be wrong, of course.
We will see.
And there has been more clarification/quotes that leans towards the "tanks not being able to fufill the healing role of a cleric" theory Vs. this one slightly ambiguous statement.
Ultimately we'll just find out when they decide to tell us more. Of if one of the royalty backers choose to ask it during their Q&A session and whisper the answer to us. *Wink wink*