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Ashes Combat- First Look and Attack Chains
ArchivedUser
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So, with the most recent Twitch stream, Intrepid Studios gave us a tidbit on the combat that may have caught some of us off guard- there will be attack chains reliant upon keystroke timing in the game (he started talking about them at about the 26:45 mark on stream). We'd long heard that the game was going to be a mixture of tab-targeting and action. Now we have a good idea of how much so. For the abilities, they seem to function (in my mind) similarly to GW2. For example, there are targeted abilities, then there are ground or directional based abilities. However, the real kicker is the chain-based weapon attacks that we just heard about, which are likely to lend the combat a much more action based feeling than otherwise. So this post is going to focus on those attack chains.
Do I Like Them?
In a word, yes. However, I only like them if done correctly. First, they said that autoattacks will be a good source of our primary damage, supplemented by our abilities. This is a good thing, to me, because it means that chaining these abilities is significant enough to want to do them on their own, not just to fill the space between cooldowns. However, if this goes too far, where focusing on the chain begins to crowd out focusing on other aspects such as encounter mechanics, then it may turn bad. Anyways, that was just a general example.
Generating Ultimate
I'm going to say that I wouldn't like it if chaining these attacks properly were our only way of generating ultimate. Rather, I'd prefer if they enhanced our ultimate gain, say 1.5-2x the amount we'd normally gain or something. Of course, this is partially dependent on how they balance all skills (are cooldowns shorter or longer? Do you generate ultimate with anything other than autos? If skills have longer CDs, for example, then it frees up more time and attention for the chains to generate more ultimate, and vice versa). The main reason for this is that it would keep the skill ceiling, but also raise the skill floor for players who haven't the reflexes or foresight to constantly keep up with their keystrokes. At least until you program your muscle memory.
Pacing
Now, this is more dependent to how the game plays overall, but I really hope that these autos are measured affairs, and not 'swing your sword every .5 seconds, keystroke right at the end for moar deeps/effects,' and I also really don't want them to be very reaction based. This is a bit of personal preference, but I'd prefer if your auto would take something like 1 second (maybe more or less depending on the weapon. Daggers, for instance, would make sense for quicker attack, while a greatsword might take longer), and depending on the stage of the chain and the weapon, the keystroke could be input in, say, the starting, middle, or ending third of that particular attack, or something similar. This would give each weapon it's own unique pacing, add some skill curve to learning a particular weapon, and also change up the timing itself so that it goes longer without getting stale or becoming muscle memory within half an hour.
Chaining
Now, as for the chains themselves, here's how they'll probably work. You activate your weapon ability, and then you either just use that initial ability, or if you time the keystroke correctly you trigger the next ability in the chain. This is what I got the feel of how it was going to happen when Steven stated that 'you don't have to participate in the chain- you can just use the ability and swing your sword' or something similar. I'm fine with this, as long as correctly executing your chain isn't a massive improvement over the base attack, so much so that you'd feel pressured to focus more on finishing your chain properly than most other mechanics (repeat from earlier- I know).
The End
Anyways, I feel like those are my preliminary thoughts on the matter. For a TL;DR- I want using the chain to only enhance what your normal attacks and abilities could do, and I want them to be somewhat paced and measured instead of spam or reaction based.
Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Did I miss something that you'd want to see out of these chains? Feel free to say so!
Do I Like Them?
In a word, yes. However, I only like them if done correctly. First, they said that autoattacks will be a good source of our primary damage, supplemented by our abilities. This is a good thing, to me, because it means that chaining these abilities is significant enough to want to do them on their own, not just to fill the space between cooldowns. However, if this goes too far, where focusing on the chain begins to crowd out focusing on other aspects such as encounter mechanics, then it may turn bad. Anyways, that was just a general example.
Generating Ultimate
I'm going to say that I wouldn't like it if chaining these attacks properly were our only way of generating ultimate. Rather, I'd prefer if they enhanced our ultimate gain, say 1.5-2x the amount we'd normally gain or something. Of course, this is partially dependent on how they balance all skills (are cooldowns shorter or longer? Do you generate ultimate with anything other than autos? If skills have longer CDs, for example, then it frees up more time and attention for the chains to generate more ultimate, and vice versa). The main reason for this is that it would keep the skill ceiling, but also raise the skill floor for players who haven't the reflexes or foresight to constantly keep up with their keystrokes. At least until you program your muscle memory.
Pacing
Now, this is more dependent to how the game plays overall, but I really hope that these autos are measured affairs, and not 'swing your sword every .5 seconds, keystroke right at the end for moar deeps/effects,' and I also really don't want them to be very reaction based. This is a bit of personal preference, but I'd prefer if your auto would take something like 1 second (maybe more or less depending on the weapon. Daggers, for instance, would make sense for quicker attack, while a greatsword might take longer), and depending on the stage of the chain and the weapon, the keystroke could be input in, say, the starting, middle, or ending third of that particular attack, or something similar. This would give each weapon it's own unique pacing, add some skill curve to learning a particular weapon, and also change up the timing itself so that it goes longer without getting stale or becoming muscle memory within half an hour.
Chaining
Now, as for the chains themselves, here's how they'll probably work. You activate your weapon ability, and then you either just use that initial ability, or if you time the keystroke correctly you trigger the next ability in the chain. This is what I got the feel of how it was going to happen when Steven stated that 'you don't have to participate in the chain- you can just use the ability and swing your sword' or something similar. I'm fine with this, as long as correctly executing your chain isn't a massive improvement over the base attack, so much so that you'd feel pressured to focus more on finishing your chain properly than most other mechanics (repeat from earlier- I know).
The End
Anyways, I feel like those are my preliminary thoughts on the matter. For a TL;DR- I want using the chain to only enhance what your normal attacks and abilities could do, and I want them to be somewhat paced and measured instead of spam or reaction based.
Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Did I miss something that you'd want to see out of these chains? Feel free to say so!
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Comments
It's almost like the little bit of information given today has actually lead to less certainty in how I think the system will work.
It does have elements of skill chaining, which Steven referred to as "keystrokes". I like this very much in principle, but the implementation details will make a lot of difference.
Things I am unsure of:
- Are these proc (probabilistic) or resource (eg: mana) based combos, or will pressing A A C B always generate your ultimate, for example?
- Are the chains locked in some form of sequence that will end if you choose another ability? For example will a tank using a short term defensive cooldown in the midst of casting the ultimate combo break the ultimate.
- Are combos always a mix of targeting systems? For example, the shield "wall" appears to be ground targeted, but the lasso ability seems to be action targeted and the shield bash would be AoE targeted.
- Can combos be interrupted by other player's abilities? Could simple interrupts be a real curse to tanks or casters trying to engage their ultimates or large combos in the heat of battle.
Mind still reeling. May need a nap2. To me, it sounds like if you miss your keystroke, the chain will end. Since they said the keystroke will occur during the animation, I would say that if you choose to use another ability that's not instant cast (meaning you can cast it immediately and without putting you into an animation) then it would lock you out of the next chain, since after the animation stops, you'd proceed to use that other ability.
They also said that this system is supposed to replace your boring auto attack, and in most games (other than those like FF14), your autoattacks are interrupted by ability usage. Now, these abilities could occur simultaneously to your other abilities, if these are just autoattack based, but I would greatly prefer if they were not, as I believe that reduces the risk-reward aspect and also adds unnecessary spamming.
3. I don't think the combos will be a mix of targeting systems. They stated explicitly that this will apply to every weapon ability in the game, but they stated only weapon abilities, and we don't know how many abilities weapons will have. For example, you might only have the 'basic' attack ability, or you might have a couple different abilities, all with their own combos. The other combos they were referring to such as putting a wall down and then pulling an enemy smack into a wall seem like they are distinct abilities used together to create a combo rather than a combo in and of itself.
4. Considering that you have to keystroke during a certain point in the animation, I would say that yes, they will be interruptable. If the enemy prevents you from finishing animation 1, you probably won't be able to proc combo animation 2 since you never finished animation 1. But these abilities themselves aren't ultimate abilities, just a means by which you attack and also generate ultimate.
I think that covers it all