[Proposal] Scaled Individual Loot System

ArchivedUser

@lexmax This proposal may work as long as there's no BOP in place, right?

Some database developer will have a lot of fun with that, too ^^

Beyond that, I like that idea

ArchivedUser

@lexmax what did you have in mind with an artisan class modifier? Not sure how I would like always having a higher chance to get mats over gear just because I have an artisan profession (though I do prefer mats over gear for drops I still want the same chance at getting thing as anyone else)

Also not sure "m6 recommend class" one will really work that well with gear being more class arbitrary

I prefer system to be as unbiased as possible, and no BoP or BoE myself mostly because it Allows for people trading what they don't want for what they do want

ArchivedUser

Waysm said:

Anyway, your system is good and I don't see that many abuses with it unless some poeple create 70 accounts and have time to play them all = bots.

That's a lot in sub fees for some lousy drops xD

ArchivedUser

Herdo said:

@lexmax This proposal may work as long as there's no BOP in place, right?

Some database developer will have a lot of fun with that, too ^^

Beyond that, I like that idea

This system will work with or without BOP. The system can also allow trading of BOP items within a limited timeframe from the encounter, similar to how WoW does it

ArchivedUser

Would be great if @GMSteven ,if he has a minute, could let us know if this is an idea that would even be considered or are they set on the blogged loot rules. 

ArchivedUser

Ninja Shadow said:

@lexmax what did you have in mind with an artisan class modifier? Not sure how I would like always having a higher chance to get mats over gear just because I have an artisan profession (though I do prefer mats over gear for drops I still want the same chance at getting thing as anyone else)

Also not sure "m6 recommend class" one will really work that well with gear being more class arbitrary

I prefer system to be as unbiased as possible, and no BoP or BoE myself mostly because it Allows for people trading what they don't want for what they do want

I hear what you are saying about being as bias free as possible, but I can see specific situations where bias might be useful, such as favoring plate items for Tank archetypes, or cooking mats for Cook artisans. Nothing worse than the tank receiving a cloth item while the mage receives the best legendary tanking shield. The mage could trade with the tank but may want extortionate amounts of gold (which I see happening frequently with the bidding system, particularly when a guild represents the majority of the people in a group).

Ideally the M6 and M7 modifiers would be weighted by skill progression on player's respective skill trees (master cooks will gain access to better mats than novice cooks), but I'm trying to keep this relatively simple to convey the basic idea.

IS will need to tune these tables based on gameplay, so I'm trying to provide a flexible toolkit so they can handle a wide range of possibilities

ArchivedUser

Could the scaling metric perhaps have an additional modifier based on time spent/duration and group death counter, with a diminishing returns on repeated content.

Something like this would facilitate the long term viability of group specific content, due to the motivational factor based on better cooperative play, skill and awareness.
 While putting the brakes on farm status.

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Herdo said:

@lexmax This proposal may work as long as there's no BOP in place, right?

Some database developer will have a lot of fun with that, too ^^

Beyond that, I like that idea

This system will work with or without BOP. The system can also allow trading of BOP items within a limited timeframe from the encounter, similar to how WoW does it

From how I understand it works exactly like the wow system. It uses modifiers too, class, spec, etc and probably some hidden ones we don't know about. It also doesn't change the drop chance (it apparently initially nerfed it but has been fixed). It's a great system and I really hope they listen to your proposal, great work!!!

Also trading shouldn't be a problem since they've said they won't use a soulbound system in Ashes. Gear should be tradeable freely.

Edit Update: Went back and checked about the drop chance and updated my comment with more accurate info.

ArchivedUser

Herdo said:

Some database developer will have a lot of fun with that, too ^^

I know it's denormalized... because secretly I hate DBA's  hehah

ArchivedUser

Whocando said:

Could the scaling metric perhaps have an additional modifier based on time spent/duration and group death counter, with a diminishing returns on repeated content.

Something like this would facilitate the long term viability of group specific content, due to the motivational factor based on better cooperative play, skill and awareness.
 While putting the brakes on farm status.

Thanks. I'll add your suggestion to the not on participation metrics

ArchivedUser

@GMSteven please take a look at this, would be awesome to have this as an option besides the traditional loot systems.

ArchivedUser

Still hoping for a look by @GMSteven !  

ArchivedUser

I think this is a really good idea, but I would recommend a couple of minor alterations.

First, I think that if a player is passed over for a drop because another player received a one per kill item, not only should that player get a new roll, they should have the denied roll saved for the next battle with the same enemy and receive the proper loot at that time.

Second, because of the nature of this games equipment mechanics, as well as the guild/metropolis mechanics, if there is a system in place to grant preferential loot to players, players should have a game mechanic to choose if they want to exploit that mechanic.

For example, with the artisan proposal for mat drops, a character should be able to enable or disable this feature.

My other thoughts on the matter have been somewhat touched upon already, but I think are worth explicit discussion,

Specifically, with no BoP/BoE, item inflation is strictly controlled by durability. Additionally, there is a stated goal to have crafted gear be competitive with looted gear. Because of these two factors, the gear economy will necessarily look very different from other MMOs, and a need/greed system is probably out of the question.

Presently we do not know how IS intends to keep crafting relevant, but it is almost certainly the case that crafting would need to be tied to the dungeon loot mechanics. The problem is that if craftable gear is in anyway inferior to looted gear, no one will use it, and if looted gear is in anyway inferior to crafted gear, people will only use it in the short term, and will not repeat those runs.

The most obvious solution for this would be to have monsters drop needed materials for crafting, but this doesn't address the issue of item balance. The second obvious solution would be that crafters could craft items that were found in the dungeon.

This is rather important to consider because depending on item balance, we may find ourselves doing dungeon runs just for materials, or to breakdown loot or something similar. In any of these cases preexisting loot systems from other MMOs probably would not work.

TLDR: System proposed is good, recommended minor tweaks, suggested that need/greed can not work with stated development goals.

ArchivedUser

Johndoe said:

I think this is a really good idea, but I would recommend a couple of minor alterations.

First, I think that if a player is passed over for a drop because another player received a one per kill item, not only should that player get a new roll, they should have the denied roll saved for the next battle with the same enemy and receive the proper loot at that time.

Second, because of the nature of this games equipment mechanics, as well as the guild/metropolis mechanics, if there is a system in place to grant preferential loot to players, players should have a game mechanic to choose if they want to exploit that mechanic.

For example, with the artisan proposal for mat drops, a character should be able to enable or disable this feature.

My other thoughts on the matter have been somewhat touched upon already, but I think are worth explicit discussion,

Specifically, with no BoP/BoE, item inflation is strictly controlled by durability. Additionally, there is a stated goal to have crafted gear be competitive with looted gear. Because of these two factors, the gear economy will necessarily look very different from other MMOs, and a need/greed system is probably out of the question.

Presently we do not know how IS intends to keep crafting relevant, but it is almost certainly the case that crafting would need to be tied to the dungeon loot mechanics. The problem is that if craftable gear is in anyway inferior to looted gear, no one will use it, and if looted gear is in anyway inferior to crafted gear, people will only use it in the short term, and will not repeat those runs.

The most obvious solution for this would be to have monsters drop needed materials for crafting, but this doesn't address the issue of item balance. The second obvious solution would be that crafters could craft items that were found in the dungeon.

This is rather important to consider because depending on item balance, we may find ourselves doing dungeon runs just for materials, or to breakdown loot or something similar. In any of these cases preexisting loot systems from other MMOs probably would not work.

TLDR: System proposed is good, recommended minor tweaks, suggested that need/greed can not work with stated development goals.

They said during one of the kickstarter livestreams, that you will be able to break down items you find, and learn how to make them. The difference between looted gear and crafted gear, is that with crafted you'll be able to customise the stats more, pick what you want. They will also have item decay, so there will always be a need for new crafted gear.

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

Still hoping for a look by @GMSteven !  

You are SUCH a blatant name dropper!!! Hoping @GMSteven will read the thread even though I'm sure @GMSteven is much to busy to be doing such things.

It would be awesome however if @GMSteven or another IS dev DID but lets not get carried away

ArchivedUser

PlagueMonk said:

Sintu said:

Still hoping for a look by @GMSteven !  

You are SUCH a blatant name dropper!!! Hoping @GMSteven will read the thread even though I'm sure @GMSteven is much to busy to be doing such things.

It would be awesome however if @GMSteven or another IS dev DID but lets not get carried away

Not sure what I was thinking bumping up this post for @GMSteven !

ArchivedUser

You're all way too hopeful that @GMSteven actually visits the forum, from what I understand @GMSteven and IS tend to only use Discord to communicate.

ArchivedUser

Not always true. I made a critical post about an unclear decision about a month ago and he responded in under 2 minutes. So they do watch and things that need clarification are forwarded by the moderators for them to look at. But yes, it is much more of a sure thing to post on Discord.

ArchivedUser

I'm sure they only comment on things they are sure about. The loot system may still be eligible to be changed and maybe that is why they aren't commenting.

ArchivedUser

Which is why I am glad it's mostly people whom are kind, and share similar ideas that will get into the early alphas. Most people here are quite well spoken too. Which gives me hope. Hope that once they get in, they get in to test the systems, see how they work, and more importantly provide feedback for things that don't work well. Or can be improved, and how they can be improved. I have faith in you all ^^ Would've joined you, but the very early alpha stages are a bit much.

ArchivedUser

Loyheta said:

I'm sure they only comment on things they are sure about. The loot system may still be eligible to be changed and maybe that is why they aren't commenting.

Agreed. I don't expect any official comment from Intrepid. They are far too busy preparing for PAX on top everything else

ArchivedUser

Maybe nothing official but going to keep bringing it back up top.