Is player driven narrative enough?

ArchivedUser

Storytelling is an important aspect of gameplay for me, along side combat mechanics.  Exploring a new world and understanding how an artifact came to rest here, or who was responsible for these ancient ruins can be really engaging.  A lack of NPC factions will result in a lore vacuum where we can only infer what as happened based on the physical evidence that is left, leaving the world feeling kind of empty.  With IS emphasis on player driven narrative will that be enough to keep you engaged in the story?

ArchivedUser

Sidiston said:

 A lack of NPC factions will result in a lore vacuum where we can only infer what as happened based on the physical evidence that is left, leaving the world feeling kind of empty. 

Why would lore depend on NPC's being in factions? Could you elaborate?

ArchivedUser

"Factions" is a term I'm projecting from other games; it doesn't matter to me if the npcs have formed a commune. What I mean is if all the npcs came with us through the portals they won't know any more than we do. 

ArchivedUser

Well they said heroes and villains will be different depending on nodes so there will be NPC driven narrative, it just would tie into the player's actions and that of their node.

Hopefully Intrepid will take this a little further and perhaps make NPC factions (small scale mind you almost guildlike themselves) and they will be attracted to certain cities so you may find NPC "guilds" scattered around cities with quests themselves (think mage's or fighter's guild from Oblivion while adding others like merchants guilds)

I think it'd be pretty cool if they implemented this while still retaining the primarily player driven narrative, while still having a NPC in game narrative (and I thought I remember hearing them talking about having narrative from npcs and this could be a cool way to give NPCs a little more)

ArchivedUser

We know there are npc "guilds" we can join like the thieves guild and scholars academy. I imagine there will be more in the world as well. Probably one for each religion.

ArchivedUser

Perhaps also, races came through the portals years ago... I'm not sure that we'll (Player Characters) would be considered the firsts. Their might not be cities but definitely hubs and such with NPCs. And if you read between the lines of some of the Live Q&As they have hinted at an overarching story that will probably help the player characters get situated. 

ArchivedUser

There does need to be a bit of NPCs to make up for the empty feelings that will occur quite abit.

ArchivedUser

I think this is where they get the "themebox" from. Games either put you on a linear progression of story, trying to balance pace to keep it matched to zone level and how quickly you level, so you end up at the "endgame" zones at current max level. Or they go sandbox, which is basically developer speak for, "we couldn't be fucked to develop a storyline and balance it to content, here is what we came up with for tools, now you go make it interesting." I think for Ashes they are going to have an overarching main storyline that you will be able to unlock over the course of different level nodes, along with side storyline related to our stretch goal content like religion, bounty hunting, and so on. Will everyone get to race to the end of content in two weeks and crowing on the internet "What a shit game, I beat it in two weeks, off to next!!"? Probably not. This also fits in with how I imagine updates will go. "All level 3 scientific nodes now have a chance of unlocking  the Archie the Elder npc questline, follow Archie as he tells you where to go to unlock the secrets of yet another Cave of Mystery!!"

ArchivedUser

That is not true. You don't need npcs to tell you the lore. Good example is darksouls. Just because we don't have a tour guide telling us what happened at those ruins doesn't mean there isn't a story to learn about. They can easily leave books, inscriptions, and other similar items to reveal the story of the world. To me, this makes the world feel more rich. Allowing the players to think about, piece together, and discover the lore gets me more interested in the story then if it was just thrown at me as I follow a npc through the world.

ArchivedUser

Sidiston said:

Storytelling is an important aspect of gameplay for me, along side combat mechanics.  Exploring a new world and understanding how an artifact came to rest here, or who was responsible for these ancient ruins can be really engaging.  A lack of NPC factions will result in a lore vacuum where we can only infer what as happened based on the physical evidence that is left, leaving the world feeling kind of empty.  With IS emphasis on player driven narrative will that be enough to keep you engaged in the story?

Also fostering an organic & healthy roleplaying community might help!

ArchivedUser

McStackerson said:

That is not true. You don't need npcs to tell you the lore. Good example is darksouls. Just because we don't have a tour guide telling us what happened at those ruins doesn't mean there isn't a story to learn about. They can easily leave books, inscriptions, and other similar items to reveal the story of the world. To me, this makes the world feel more rich. Allowing the players to think about, piece together, and discover the lore gets me more interested in the story then if it was just thrown at me as I follow a npc through the world.

This just isn't the case.  It's true that you only gain snippets of the lore at a time that have to be pieced together but npcs provide valuable background information in that game. Without them there would be no definitive story only what you could piece together from the scenery. 

It doesn't have to be blatant narration but without some context - books, or npcs, or other - we're left to our own devices where several plausible explanations might be possible and a deeper, richer story could exist. 

ArchivedUser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G97xdpy6Am4

ArchivedUser

Sidiston said:

This just isn't the case.  It's true that you only gain snippets of the lore at a time that have to be pieced together but npcs provide valuable background information in that game. Without them there would be no definitive story only what you could piece together from the scenery. 

It doesn't have to be blatant narration but without some context - books, or npcs, or other - we're left to our own devices where several plausible explanations might be possible and a deeper, richer story could exist. 

Technically, in the context of the story, it is still coming from a npc even if it's written in a book or on a wall. It may not be your preferred way of consuming a narrative but there is nothing you can put in a npc dialog box that couldn't fit in a book or similar object. Anything a npc would say they could have written in a book or on a wall. 

In AOC, all current knowledge of the world would come from texts. Besides maybe the gods, no npcs would have experience with had happened to the world and any knowledge they tell you would have probably come from something they read. Why not cut out the middle man and have the players discover what the previous civilizations had left behind.

ArchivedUser

I think it would be cool if there were groups of people who did not go through the gateways, hidden in underground cities and forest villages, just waiting for the players to stumble upon them. Maybe the gateways went inactive before they could leave so they were forced to adapt and now their descendants can relay lore of this world to our characters.

ArchivedUser

On  of the things I love about the elder scrolls is that there is actually no concrete lore. There is only racial memory and corrupted whispers on what may or may not have happened. Some may be true. Some may be here-say. Only those who were at that place, at that time actually know the truth. And their honesty should not be taken for granted.

This is in fact reality. The only things we know are the now. The further backward/forward in history or future you go....the more inaccurate and vague the facts become. History becomes myth and lie. Future plans becomes just hopes and dreams.

ArchivedUser

Watching the PvE gameplay from Pax yesterday I think we will clean up the environment of deadly gases and toxic water while we play thus making the land habitable to uh.. ourselves. When we defeat a boss maybe there will be a story thing pop up like, "And once Bob the Monster had been destroyed the 1000 year old honeycombs could once again be harvested, providing a food source for the people." I think the lore will be revealed that way.

I also think the Tulnar will have the most info since they never left.  If there are Tulnar NPCs ask them and they'll say, "It is rumored that long ago there was a magic spring to the East and if a unicorn drank of it's waters it would drop it's horn and grow a new one." Stuff like that. 

ArchivedUser

Rule #1: the tulnar lie.

ArchivedUser

Stories are the glue that binds us to each other. It is because of stories that we are able to live forever or die being forgotten. I am a strong believer that player driven narrative will be enough for some but may not be for others, this is largely due to the limitations of someones imagination. 

An avid role player could take the game histories and create endless narrative, as a casual player would only see what is given to them and become bored if that pre-determined story were to suddenly end.

I personally am already overflowing with player driven narratives, from the work I'm doing with my channel and to add the official lore on top of that is like being a kid in a candy store. I can't get enough. 

ArchivedUser

Sidiston said:

A lack of NPC factions will result in a lore vacuum where we can only infer what as happened based on the physical evidence that is left, leaving the world feeling kind of empty. 

I don't expect that to be the case at all. Quests, for example, are often the way a game's lore is unveiled... and quests aren't dependent on NPC factions at all.

ArchivedUser

The lore will be sparse at first but that will change as the players develop the world. I prefer the idea of the players discovering the lore rather than the NPCs knowing everything and just handing it to us right from the start.

ArchivedUser

We should be able to learn lore from NPC races, like the Sladeborn...possibly even from sentient mobs, like dragons.
Most importantly, gods exist and will be interacting with us, so they can reveal their truths whenever they deem fit... or send us on quests to uncover lore.

We don't lose lore without factions. Much of the lore we get from NPCs in Ashes will be current/recent lore.
Ancient lore will likely a bit less common than in other MMORPGs, but still attainable through regular adventuring.

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Sidiston said:

 A lack of NPC factions will result in a lore vacuum where we can only infer what as happened based on the physical evidence that is left, leaving the world feeling kind of empty. 

Why would lore depend on NPC's being in factions? Could you elaborate?

Always on point xD

ArchivedUser

yes. yes it is

ArchivedUser

From what I heard it well be player driven narrative for a good portion of the lore but they also said that slowly over time they planned on releasing more and more information on the lore, they said it was fairly elaborate so I think there will be plenty of lore between player driven narrative and the over all world story

ArchivedUser

I guess lore pieces and clues will be found throughout the world.

Lore doesn't need to be told vocally in stories, it can also be found written in tablets in mysterious ruins and by investigation and exploration.