Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
[Suggestion] Vertical Progression Milestones
ArchivedUser
Guest
This suggestion is a compilation of the thoughts that came to my mind during the discussion in this topic:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/34273/slow-progression-please/
Suggestion
In regards of the time required to complete the leveling process, different opinions exist. Some people prefer reaching the maximum level quiet quickly, to compete in "end-game" PvP combat and "end-game" PvE raids etc (yeah, I said the bad word, twice 
); other people prefer to play their character to their fullest, taking their time to progress, explore the game during leveling and reach the maximum level when they feel like it.
To create a good experience that will satisfy both groups, I've been racking my brain last night and came up with a quiet decent solution (IMHO):
The way of leveling shouldn't be handled as in other MMORPGs (leveling straight to the maximum level without any hindrance, if you want to), because Ashes of Creation offers so much more for every player! The leveling should be thwarted at certain points, allowing and/or forcing players to do more than just leveling and/or grinding to the maximum level. Players should play the game the way they want to, how they feel it's right for them, how they love to play it. But by the immense amount of content the game offers, some people might loose the overview - these players might miss out a lot of content, because they might focus their game experience to the things they like and love. This is not something that is purely bad (they decided to take this route after all), but from the point of view of a developer, this is sad, because the content you created for all the players might be "skipped".
To achieve a better experience for all players, the progression would be slowed down by milestones, locking further progression at certain points. These milestones would prevent the vertical progression (increasing the level of your advanturer class) until the completion of certain conditions.
A milestone is represented by a special quest. Every milestone quest will automatically pop up for the player once they completed the last milestone (except the first milestone quest, this will pop up immediately after entering the game). After fulfilling the quest conditions, the quest completes and the player is promoted to the next level, offering him the next milestone quest.
Not completing the milestone quest prevents the player from leveling any further. XP earned while being in front of a milestone (XP maxed out, milestone is missing for promotion) will lapse.
Besides the promotion, the milestone quests grant no additional rewards.
The way these milestones complete (description below) is my own suggestion and completely up for discussion!
The conditions of major milestones focus on the horizontal progression. This includes the progress of an artisan class, the progress in organisations, PvP ranking and a lot more.
Competing in the horizontal progression (whichever the player may choose (might be one or multiple progressions)) will fulfill the condition of the milestone.
The higher the player's level is, the more challenging the milestones become.
On the one hand, major milestones are static for all players - they all require the same amount of effort to complete. On the other hand, to give the players an option, the milestones can be completed in several ways. Multiple conditions exist for every milestone, so a player can fulfill the quest by completing one condition, or a combination of multiple conditions (e.g. complete the PvP condition by 100%; complete the artisan condition by 30% and the organisation condition by 70%). Overall, 100% of any condition combination must be met.
Major milestones must be completed once per account. Once completed, and another character is created, the major milestones are ignored. Leveling beyond the major milestones can happen freely.
The conditions of minor milestones focus on the social interaction and node progression. This includes completing quests for a node, as well as completing party and guild actions. Competing in node quests, taking part in party and guild quests will fulfill the cindition of the milestone.
Once more, the higher the player's level is, the more challenging the milestones become.
Unlike major milestones, minor milestones are static for all players.
Minor milestones must be completed once per character.
Depending on the players focus during playing, milestones might be instantly completed once the quest is received.
Example 1:
Example 2:
Example 3:
A: Most competitive players who aim to reach the maximum level quickly are organized in guilds. If you're part of such a guild, you shouldn't have probelms to complete any of the milestones. If you are not part of such a guild but still want to reach the maximum level quickly, get creative!
Q: I have to complete the minor milestones with every character? But I want to multibox, have 5 or more characters at level 50!
A: Yes. In Ashes of Creation your choices should come along with a consequence. Once you decide to play a certain type, should you really switch between your five characters all the time? You may be able to play all 5 classes, but will you play them in a good way? If you really feel the way to have more than one character at level 50, you have to struggle your way up to that level. If you're just trying out a new archetype, you might not level it any higher than level 20 anyway.
Q: I join the game late (I want a second character to be level 50), but there are already five level 5 nodes on my server. How am I supposed to complete the 9th milestone?
A: This milestone should encourage PvP actions/city sieges. Therefore, this milestone is static for each and every player and character. In the beginning, it will be "easy" to complete this milestone quest, as there are no level 5 nodes. So once there are five level 5 nodes, new players as well as existing players have an even higher interest in doing sieges against a level 5 node.
Q: I'm 100% not into PvP - why should I compete in PvP to fulfill a certain milestone, why complete the PvE condition?
A: Once playing the game, encountering PvP is guaranteed. If you didn't do any PvP earlier with your character, a milestone quest might encourage you to do PvP. This is for you to become better at PvP. Instead of avoiding it, you will get the minimum skillset to fight back.
After all, it's your choice which condition you fulfill.
Q: But when I compet in PvP late, wouldn't I fight against totally overpowered players, or plain noobs? How should that help me getting better in PvP?
A: When fighting in arenas, the game is probably going to choose enemies for you with the same skillset, slightly above, slightly below. There's always a way to improve, even if none of you have mastered your classes in PvP.
Q: I'm 100% not into PvE - why should compete in PvE (node quests) to fulfill a certain milestone?
A: Nodes are a central component of Ashes of Creation. A lot of effort is required to level a node. Due splitting this effort amongst all players, every single player has to a smaller amount of work to complete. Further more, becoming a citizen of a city you didn't help to grow might be refered to as leeching. After all, it's your choice which condition you fulfill.
Q: But leveling a node to level 5 is totally ridiculous. This will take months!
A: You don't need to level a node to a certain level. You just need to take part in the leveling progress (e.g. complete X quests for the node), not wait for the node to actually level up.
Q: But leveling a node is a pure PvE action - I want PvP!
A: Who said that node quests are limited to PvE actions?
Q: Taking part in the leveling of a node? What if there's no node available close to me?
A: Primarily you're leveling alongside a node anyways. So, normally, you would be close to a node of your level. In the case that there's no node on your level close to you, you'll either have to grind your ass off to reach the next level, because the mobs near that node relate to the node level, or travel to a node that fits your level better. It's your choice staying close to a low level node that may not progress any further, or go for a higher leveld node that is further away.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/34273/slow-progression-please/
tl;dr:
Play Ashes of Creation the way you want, but progress in an enjoyable and remarkable way.Suggestion
In regards of the time required to complete the leveling process, different opinions exist. Some people prefer reaching the maximum level quiet quickly, to compete in "end-game" PvP combat and "end-game" PvE raids etc (yeah, I said the bad word, twice ); other people prefer to play their character to their fullest, taking their time to progress, explore the game during leveling and reach the maximum level when they feel like it.To create a good experience that will satisfy both groups, I've been racking my brain last night and came up with a quiet decent solution (IMHO):
The way of leveling shouldn't be handled as in other MMORPGs (leveling straight to the maximum level without any hindrance, if you want to), because Ashes of Creation offers so much more for every player! The leveling should be thwarted at certain points, allowing and/or forcing players to do more than just leveling and/or grinding to the maximum level. Players should play the game the way they want to, how they feel it's right for them, how they love to play it. But by the immense amount of content the game offers, some people might loose the overview - these players might miss out a lot of content, because they might focus their game experience to the things they like and love. This is not something that is purely bad (they decided to take this route after all), but from the point of view of a developer, this is sad, because the content you created for all the players might be "skipped".
To achieve a better experience for all players, the progression would be slowed down by milestones, locking further progression at certain points. These milestones would prevent the vertical progression (increasing the level of your advanturer class) until the completion of certain conditions.
Before the "progress players" start complaining 'but I want to reach the max level quickly', please keep reading!
The milestones are divided into major and minor milestones. Completing each milestone allows you to progress to the next level, which is locked behind it. Major and minor milestones lock the progression behind a certain condition, alternating in their sequence, every ten levels (see examples for details).A milestone is represented by a special quest. Every milestone quest will automatically pop up for the player once they completed the last milestone (except the first milestone quest, this will pop up immediately after entering the game). After fulfilling the quest conditions, the quest completes and the player is promoted to the next level, offering him the next milestone quest.
Not completing the milestone quest prevents the player from leveling any further. XP earned while being in front of a milestone (XP maxed out, milestone is missing for promotion) will lapse.
Besides the promotion, the milestone quests grant no additional rewards.
The way these milestones complete (description below) is my own suggestion and completely up for discussion!
Major Milestones
Major milestones allow the player to reach every "10th" (decet) level (10, 20, 30, 40, 50). Therefore, the milestone quests for major milestones start at these levels: 6, 16, 26, 36, 46.The conditions of major milestones focus on the horizontal progression. This includes the progress of an artisan class, the progress in organisations, PvP ranking and a lot more.
Competing in the horizontal progression (whichever the player may choose (might be one or multiple progressions)) will fulfill the condition of the milestone.
The higher the player's level is, the more challenging the milestones become.
On the one hand, major milestones are static for all players - they all require the same amount of effort to complete. On the other hand, to give the players an option, the milestones can be completed in several ways. Multiple conditions exist for every milestone, so a player can fulfill the quest by completing one condition, or a combination of multiple conditions (e.g. complete the PvP condition by 100%; complete the artisan condition by 30% and the organisation condition by 70%). Overall, 100% of any condition combination must be met.
Major milestones must be completed once per account. Once completed, and another character is created, the major milestones are ignored. Leveling beyond the major milestones can happen freely.
Minor Milestones
Minor milestones allow the player to reach every "5th" (quintet) level (5, 15, 25, 35, 45). Therefore, the milestone quests for minor milestones start at these level: 1, 11, 21, 31, 41.The conditions of minor milestones focus on the social interaction and node progression. This includes completing quests for a node, as well as completing party and guild actions. Competing in node quests, taking part in party and guild quests will fulfill the cindition of the milestone.
Once more, the higher the player's level is, the more challenging the milestones become.
Unlike major milestones, minor milestones are static for all players.
Minor milestones must be completed once per character.
Examples
If you take a look at the examples below, you will realize that reaching the maximum level of 50 will most likely take at least a few weeks up to several months (due to milestone number 9, which is static throughout the examples).Depending on the players focus during playing, milestones might be instantly completed once the quest is received.
Example 1:
Example 2:
Example 3:
QnA
Q: I still want to speed level, these 'milestones' will hinder me in doing so!A: Most competitive players who aim to reach the maximum level quickly are organized in guilds. If you're part of such a guild, you shouldn't have probelms to complete any of the milestones. If you are not part of such a guild but still want to reach the maximum level quickly, get creative!
Q: I have to complete the minor milestones with every character? But I want to multibox, have 5 or more characters at level 50!
A: Yes. In Ashes of Creation your choices should come along with a consequence. Once you decide to play a certain type, should you really switch between your five characters all the time? You may be able to play all 5 classes, but will you play them in a good way? If you really feel the way to have more than one character at level 50, you have to struggle your way up to that level. If you're just trying out a new archetype, you might not level it any higher than level 20 anyway.
Q: I join the game late (I want a second character to be level 50), but there are already five level 5 nodes on my server. How am I supposed to complete the 9th milestone?
A: This milestone should encourage PvP actions/city sieges. Therefore, this milestone is static for each and every player and character. In the beginning, it will be "easy" to complete this milestone quest, as there are no level 5 nodes. So once there are five level 5 nodes, new players as well as existing players have an even higher interest in doing sieges against a level 5 node.
Q: I'm 100% not into PvP - why should I compete in PvP to fulfill a certain milestone, why complete the PvE condition?
A: Once playing the game, encountering PvP is guaranteed. If you didn't do any PvP earlier with your character, a milestone quest might encourage you to do PvP. This is for you to become better at PvP. Instead of avoiding it, you will get the minimum skillset to fight back.
After all, it's your choice which condition you fulfill.
Q: But when I compet in PvP late, wouldn't I fight against totally overpowered players, or plain noobs? How should that help me getting better in PvP?
A: When fighting in arenas, the game is probably going to choose enemies for you with the same skillset, slightly above, slightly below. There's always a way to improve, even if none of you have mastered your classes in PvP.
Q: I'm 100% not into PvE - why should compete in PvE (node quests) to fulfill a certain milestone?
A: Nodes are a central component of Ashes of Creation. A lot of effort is required to level a node. Due splitting this effort amongst all players, every single player has to a smaller amount of work to complete. Further more, becoming a citizen of a city you didn't help to grow might be refered to as leeching. After all, it's your choice which condition you fulfill.
Q: But leveling a node to level 5 is totally ridiculous. This will take months!
A: You don't need to level a node to a certain level. You just need to take part in the leveling progress (e.g. complete X quests for the node), not wait for the node to actually level up.
Q: But leveling a node is a pure PvE action - I want PvP!
A: Who said that node quests are limited to PvE actions?
Q: Taking part in the leveling of a node? What if there's no node available close to me?
A: Primarily you're leveling alongside a node anyways. So, normally, you would be close to a node of your level. In the case that there's no node on your level close to you, you'll either have to grind your ass off to reach the next level, because the mobs near that node relate to the node level, or travel to a node that fits your level better. It's your choice staying close to a low level node that may not progress any further, or go for a higher leveld node that is further away.
0
Comments
Make an arena with mediocre AI opponents to pvp.
Show them what goes into the process of crafting an item start to finish and what advantages you get for being that person that crafts.
Give them a taste of a "tutorial high end dungeon" where you are a bit of a side figure while npcs do the main work accompanied with an epic story or something. There you can even lead it into showing them how the node system will enrich those stories, expand them etc.
I see the good intention, but the execution misses it's target by a lot in my opinion.
Giving people a minimum amount of tools to be able to pvp by throwing them into 25 matches with other people that don't pvp? How does that help and teach them anything? Give two babies a spoon and expect them to figure out how to eat a soup by themselves, is what comes to mind.
The other side would be throwing them into people that live for pvp and getting slaughtered? How is that anything else but frustrating?
Having to actively seek out a node of a certain tier is also flawed to it's core. Why do I have to travel across the world to that specific node to level it up? It's even on the countryside that is influenced by an opposing guild.... You can't expect a node to be always available, this turns everything into more a hazel than it needs to be. People will be required to look at even more than they already have to.
Sure you could alter the requirements, but I don't think this will ever be more than an additional burden instead of an enriching process.
@Grisu I made some edits for you as well
I don't understand your first sentence. This system is rewarding actions.
If not - from your point of view - where is the difference between "actions" and "numbers"?
Play Ashes of Creation the way you want, but progress in an enjoyable and remarkable way.
And you start by telling people they have to do this and that to walk on the road. No it is not rewarding because leveling is by now a necessity. It's not a reward to level up, it should be, don't get me wrong, but by now people just know it differently and you further antagonise leveling by telling people you have to do specific tasks you might never do again and even start to have a grudge against.
Ashes might make leveling more fun and engaging, but they didn't change the concept of it. It is still just the road you have to walk one way or another.
Rewarding would be "hey you did the pvp AI beginner part, have some base equipment/ skill modifier/ a title / access to harder AI to train against, to get you started for real pvp". Gaining access to the level is not a reward, because it is just the way you are intentionally blocking to slow down progress. I think this is how a good portion of people will see it and detest it.
So yes, this is action and not numbers, but it is not rewarding.
In your schematic, what I would say is every few levels, let's take 5 for your example, you get an emergency quest out of a pool of (random number)200 quests. (Depending on the world state, what is available and so on). If you do this quest before you hit the next level you get a quest related boost, an exp dump feast, whatever fits.
Those quest could say "take part in 25 arena matches".
"Walk into the next zone and go treasure hunting"
"This zone is terrorized by a mutant bear (a boss intended for 5 people) find people and go slay it"
"People have spotted rare plants in a neighboring region, try and get your hands on it"
This, in my opinion, encourages you to try stuff out you might otherwise wouldn't at this time and point and if you are uncomfortable to do it now, you might still try it out later. Maybe that bear is gone, maybe those plants are dried out, but there will always be something else to explore that the game already hinted at.
I thought about adding some "reward" to my initial post, but I rather focused on the "slow pace" that this system would create. While writing that, I thought additional rewards might a little bit to much.
Your alternative sounds good, too
To your first part:
Changing the concept if leveling would mean changing the concept of the RPG in the MMORPG that is established by now. I dare to say that no developer (nor publisher) would think about changing that fundamental concept, as it could cause a big buisiness risk. I know, you're right - it should be more rewarding and different from what it is right now, but honestly, I don't see that anywhere in the near future in any game
This topic's suggestion is to make the leveling process slower (by the milestones), not making the leveling process more rewarding. I think that's in a different book
That being said, I am going to try everything Ashes has to offer, but having player levels gated until you complete certain tasks or participate in specific parts of the game, and you only get credit after you reach a certain level threshold, is too restrictive.
As if your character magically is unable to learn anything and progress as a character overall because he has to do node quests now, or gather flowers for him to starting up his brain again. Because that's what "a level" is, the accumulated experience of the actions your character took.
Due "away with leveling" by making people wonder "wow I actually level up while doing all this awesome stuff". Make the road fun and it doesn't matter how long it is to get to the very very best and grandest stuff effectively eliminating leveling even tho it is still there as a reminder, "you are not strong enough for this".
At least I believe that.
With that I think i expressed my opinion enough and wish you good luck with this discussion. Imo it's the wrong approach
Sorry @Herdo