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Combat PAX West pre alpha
Hi Intrepid,
I know there probably already is a post like this, but this post is merely to voice my own and my guilds opinion as an entirety and as backers. This post is regarding the combat system that was showed off in the PAX West pre Alpha tutorial specifically, seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMlOqAj9kXE
I know this is all subject to change and therefor I would like to give my feedback on the matter while there is time.
The combat combo mechanic appears to be something that I wont find enjoyable because it is taking my focus away from your game and visuals. It looks like my eyes are gonna be peeled down on a combo meter.
When a combo fails it makes the combat slow, the animations are taking too much time and the time before I am able to pursue my attacks is also too slow, this makes it feel like I am playing a game like runecraft. The combat is for me one of the main things that I will be doing and that is why it is important that I will find it interesting both visually and interactively.
I am a fan of you wanting to implement a combo system, but I think the execution right now needs to be changed.
My suggestions are as following:
Keep the combo system as it is, but instead of breaking the combo entirely when you miss the click, then make it instead a glancing hit which would deal less damage than a succesful click, and still keep the pace of the combat interesting.
Alternatively, you could use visual queues. The button you use for attacking needs to be used again as soon as your attack connects to the enemy and continuing the combo this way. This would lead players to focus on what is happening on the screen with their character and learn to time their attacks without looking down in the bottom of the screen.
Still with any of these things implemented, the combat still needs to look more interesting and it needs to have a faster pace.
Which leads to the next point. The abilities appear to be very generic, not so impactful and rather boring. A combat system like Black Desert Online is fast, fun, combo related and it have impact in its abilities. It is the first game where I have actually enjoyed grinding due to the combat being fun. That said, I would not like this game to be Black Desert. I just want the combat mechanics to be more interesting.
Thanks for reading
I know there probably already is a post like this, but this post is merely to voice my own and my guilds opinion as an entirety and as backers. This post is regarding the combat system that was showed off in the PAX West pre Alpha tutorial specifically, seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMlOqAj9kXE
I know this is all subject to change and therefor I would like to give my feedback on the matter while there is time.
The combat combo mechanic appears to be something that I wont find enjoyable because it is taking my focus away from your game and visuals. It looks like my eyes are gonna be peeled down on a combo meter.
When a combo fails it makes the combat slow, the animations are taking too much time and the time before I am able to pursue my attacks is also too slow, this makes it feel like I am playing a game like runecraft. The combat is for me one of the main things that I will be doing and that is why it is important that I will find it interesting both visually and interactively.
I am a fan of you wanting to implement a combo system, but I think the execution right now needs to be changed.
My suggestions are as following:
Keep the combo system as it is, but instead of breaking the combo entirely when you miss the click, then make it instead a glancing hit which would deal less damage than a succesful click, and still keep the pace of the combat interesting.
Alternatively, you could use visual queues. The button you use for attacking needs to be used again as soon as your attack connects to the enemy and continuing the combo this way. This would lead players to focus on what is happening on the screen with their character and learn to time their attacks without looking down in the bottom of the screen.
Still with any of these things implemented, the combat still needs to look more interesting and it needs to have a faster pace.
Which leads to the next point. The abilities appear to be very generic, not so impactful and rather boring. A combat system like Black Desert Online is fast, fun, combo related and it have impact in its abilities. It is the first game where I have actually enjoyed grinding due to the combat being fun. That said, I would not like this game to be Black Desert. I just want the combat mechanics to be more interesting.
Thanks for reading
0
Comments
I posted a link down below to an axe tutorial in dauntless about the visual ques I was talking about and think it should be looked into as a potential change in ashes of creation.
PS: not my video
https://youtu.be/xdW9dTiv4lM?t=3m57s
I rather have it slow and methodical where the right ability at the righ time is what matters.
Strategic team oriented combat trumps fast paced spectacle combat!
All those things are fine on a single player game or small multiplayer like tekken. For an MMO aimed at 1000s of players using a wide array of hardware, a wide range of network capability and a massive age range.....its a fail.
Enter strategic gameplay. Using the right skill, in the right place, at the right time and basing your game on reactive playback to ingame identifiers and situational/environmental/positional awareness.
I also don't see why strategic and fast paced combat are two mutually exclusive things. It would just require more player skill.
What would be cool if classes that relied more on speed like rogues or archers were more twich based and things like mages and defensive warriors more slow and strategic.
Either you need to rely on twitch reflexes and quick, action-oriented ability uses that takes the players attention or you slow things down and give people the time to communicate so they can elaborate on how to react to a threat as a group.
Look at it from the perspective that the skill needed to succeed is not (only) the individual players effectiveness but the organisation and communication of your party!
Therefore all classes need to be designed with this goal in mind.
I think to furthest they can go is to implement active blocking / riposte and dodging mechanics.
I noticed few things that I hope will be changed or tuned.
My first class will be a Ranger, I've always loved such class.
My main "concern" about this class is the "ultimate/ AOE skill"... the skill seems too long to use... the animation takes several second and the AOE seems a bit too small.
I think that by the time you press the skill key and the time the AOE is effective, if the tank move or anything, your skill can not be as effective as you thought it would be when you decided to use it.
That being said, it's just a pre-pre alpha version.. so many tings will change until the closed beta.. and even more from closed beta to the final version.
I'm sure they heard plenty of comment suggestion at the PAX (or read in forums).
I'm just surprised that so many people post bad comment while we are certainly 2 years away from the release. It's not like mmo's are a new gender. everybody knows how long it takes to develop such games. So be patient and wait at least for the Beta before making any statement.
Just my 2 cents from Europe.
But I can't stand the combat, so I don't do it. It's too fast and twitchy, more reminiscent of Street Fighter than tactical team combat (and that's where it really falls down).
I'd prefer to see combat slowed down. Something measured, something tactical. Think Dark Souls, or even something like the Arkham series.
Now, I'm not suggesting AoC depart that from from it's design, but neither should it be faster, less tactical and spammier like BDO.
You already know what to do and you're waiting for the game to catch up so the challange is gone.
I don't think it's accurate to say that fast gameplay requires only reflexes, while it's true it doesn't rely on careful planning it does require fast thinking and snap decisions.
You're right that if for example the mobs die instantly by say, something like headshots that are purely based on the players hand-eye coordination it's reflex and twitch based. But if the mobs last longer and have abileties that you need to overcome as a group while still requiring players do dodge, think about their combat and more snappy, resonsive abileties. You can still have something fast pased on the individual players side while still requiring tactical team work.
I just haven't seen any MMO combat worthy of the term tactical. But when i think tactical i think turn based games where you really need to consider what your opponent will do.
But maybe we think of diffirent things when we hear tactical and fast pased combat.
Since I doubt they would revamp everything... the least that can be done to resolve this is have a defensive animation rather than the same old "I got hit and should be dead from that hit but im not" animation... then when your HP runs out that animation is removed and replaced with a death animation
I'm trying to find a game that doesnt generate a punching bag feeling to it's combat.
I thought BDO's combos and fast combat would be fun, but no. Shooting gallery of boredom, no risk.
Need a game with built in blocking/defensive moves controlled by your settings (not the player), pre-select stances or whatever the heck you wanna call it, prioritize what you want your character to do and have superseding controls to overrule the priorities when you want. You could have amazing battle animations of attack and defense between characters... with a system that deteriorates your ability to continue in the fight the longer you perform attacks and defensive moves. You would still be performing all attacks, which is no different than what we have now, just with the added bonus of the defensive animations.
Basically your toon would block everything they could until they're too tired or run out of whatever resources they use runs out. Armor Pen, Attack speed, Strength, weapon selection, armor selection.... everything would have an actual purpose.
#MAKE-RPG-STATS-GREAT-AGAIN
Combat needs to be faster...
I don't think it could be fun to constantly look at that little bar at the bottom of the screen. You would just lose track of what is happening around you...
When you get hit in these games, your HP bar is reduced, even if you have full stamina (because you didnt press a button to block)... most of the time, these hits, should they be set in reality, would outright kill the person. I am merely suggesting that there be a system in place that auto-defends along with an animation to demonstrate this, which depletes a stamina bar rather than HP, and once the stamina bar is gone, your HP drops at that time and damage is sustained proportional to the type of attack... an example being in Skyrim... arrows to the head, visibly stuck, and they're alive. I'm just sayin all games do this. You could have amazing displays of combat, if only your toon would graphically defend against incoming attacks. That's the least that can be done.
I'd make it way more complicated, and that's when you scale character capabilities. Most of this is done via RNG... it's just associated with a graphic.....which makes combat feel more realistic than just being a punching bag and watching your Bars go down as the only indicator that something happened. Someone will make it happen, one day!
- Like DarkFall Combat
Then I think it'll be easier to understand.In tab-targetting, you don't have to " think/ plan " - its just a matter of Spacing.
In action-combat, its " iffy " but i would suggest a fair amount of Complications, ( like Kiting + Attacking )
What you described is something that i can relate in a " Tab-Targetting Scenario " .
( DarkFall MMOFPS Style issues is the constant Jumping ( think Original Halo Online ) & the " Aimbots ". But the Aimbots can be purged with Programs preventing that )
The MMO that comes relatively-close to that is SWTOR.
Despite what EA has done to it ...
- Animations are Crisp af - probably Best Melee-Defensive Combat out of any MMO
- However, no Stamina Bar - the " Defenses " are RNG ... but its based on Character Sheet & your Equipment
- You don't have " Full-Control " of Blocking, but the Chances increase depending on your Equipment
- Obtaining those Equipment is a matter of Crafting and/or Global Trade Market
- ( yeah Global Trade markets suck >x< )
Did i mention EA ? Yeah ... they fudged it upPretty sure jumping goes unpunished in most tab target games so i don't know why you think spam jumping is an issue..
My point is comparing Combat-Styles for Long-Range - deciding which would be the most ideal in conveying the Long-Range Classes
- Tab-Targetting, Action-Combat & MMOFPS
Not sure what you're insinuating, but i was referencing to have different styles to better-express the long-range class ... ( i.e. stating & comparing the " Pros " & "Cons")FFXIV, which has slower combat, is very cooperative focused, and because of that I can play it daily for 2 or 3 hours when I'm on an FFXIV kick. A bit faster than FFXIV and quite a bit slower than BDO would be the sweet spot for me and would fit this game well as it's harkening back to older social gaming designs and presenting new ideas. Combat gameplay ranging from TERA to WoW would be the ideal window. (AoC has never claimed to be action based.)
I do agree, combat needs to improve and I am glad you are openly providing feedback, but I don't think speed is the answer.
Sorry, i might have jumped to a conclusion based off the first sentence i quoted. Thought you were trying to say that there is more spam jumping in MMOFPS style games which i disagreed with as the genre naturally punishes it.