PAX "Tutorial" Combat Opinion

ArchivedUser

Hey, guys/gals!

 Before I start this off I acknowledge that the game is still in its "prehistoric stages" as Proxy says (lol), but regardless here is my opinion.

The combat system right now, I believe, needs an immediate overhaul. Dump the idea of a mini-game inside of the combat system that acts as a reward system to players. It's distracting, it's slow, and well for all you MMORPG vets, we look at our damn skill bar enough when we track skill CDs (unless you use an add-on, namely in WoW). This game aims to be revolutionary, and all of us who backed this game support that idea, but this combat system is likely to kill that seed before it even blooms. 

I honestly do not know how to make a revolutionary combat system because I'm not a creative person, but I will say (personally) that the GCD system has something I've always been a fan of.  Additionally, a seamless input system where keystrokes are interwoven with each other in a succeeding fashion is also very nice, namely BDO.  I think that for both PvP and PvE the system will be clumsy for reasons that Proxy nailed in his video and the main reason is that focusing on a bar for skill timing vs the position of our environment and player (opponents) is a major distraction. All charged/timed cast abilities can be done with visual cues. Regardless, from all the classes I saw in the video I think that the utilization of keystrokes being made seamless to chain off each other is ideal for this game, or at least serve as a template for combat design philosophy should an overhaul occur.  This will allow us to focus on our position to make calculated decisions that protect us from disadvantageous positioning all while simultaneously giving us the opportunity to continuously keep a target sighted nearly 100% of the time. 

Please discuss your opinions here with me! As always keep it civil

 

ArchivedUser

At this point it's hard to say that you could make a revolutionary combat system. I think of mmo combat development a lot and it feels like to me that we have all bases covered for things that make good mmo combat. For that reason and for the reason that no one else seems to be making something outside the box that resembles good combat I think it's up to intrepid to just steal all the good parts of other games combat with at the very most a few specific original ideas within the combat.  Some of those originalities will only come with time. They may not even be there at launch.

I think the most any person who is passionate about mmo combat really asks for is fun and engaging combat (see BDO, GW2, WoW) that is kept well balanced with nothing un-fun being oppressive to the balance of the game in pvp. There is always the strongest specs and the weaker specs. That part is fine. The problem is when the strong stuff is not fun and it's being oppressive to what is possible for other classes to bring because they are being oppressed by the stronger builds.

I've seen this happen in WoW a lot but I'll use GW2 as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with. In GW2 people tend to despise conditions but when it comes from a slow lumbering class like necro you can at least just run away from it and recover and re-enter the fight. However a thief who can put 7+ conditions that are deadly on you instantly from half way across the map, you have something else entirely. If they miss that condition burst it's entirely their fault cause it's all instant cast and even unblockable. So imagine all the squishy builds in the game that have to deal with something teleporting on them from half way across the map and then just dieing. The un-fun build is being extremely oppressive towards a bunch of other really fun builds and that is horrible. Then it's just not fun all the way around.

Also just to address a point in your post OP; I'm personally not a fan of GCD. It's there for combat pacing purposes and plenty of modern mmos have figured out combat pacing without GCDs that just feel more natural and fun. GCDs aren't bad there is just better ways in my opinion.

ArchivedUser

Honestly, I think that the system as it is now could be completely fine so long as they change the visual cue from the bar to the character animations and  audio, so you feel more engaged with the world rather than with the UI.
(and maybe make the combat just faster overall but I'd need to actually play it myself to know if I'd want it)

ArchivedUser

Do like a timing system. As long as its fast, fluid and the timing (while different per skills) should NEVER EVER EVER differ per cast of the same skill. Aka.. you can learn the timing.

edit: add EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER to the second sentence.
And perhaps add an "you will get bankrupt if you try random timings"

ArchivedUser

The feedback from PAX has been pretty positive it seems, but I'm sure the combat will continue to evolve over the next year or so based on the alphas and betas. I'll probably have a stronger opinion once I've got my hands on the game.

ArchivedUser

I hear you all. Good points. Infinitoaster, the integration of that bar into visual cues is a much better alternative. I just hope it gets sped up a little bit more and basic attacks are added . I'm proud of Intrepid's work, and I'm sure the combat will be refined over the months and years to be stellar. 

ArchivedUser

My opinion of how the game felt to me (Yes, I was at Pax).

First off my overall experience with AoC and the Developers was fantastic. For these demo's being made only some months ago just for us to try at Pax West was pretty solid (a couple bugs I experienced, but oh well).

Now what did I think of the combat? Well, I like the precision bar and I don't like it. What I mean be that is it was fun to get the bonus on the attacks, but I was watching that constantly instead of following the enemy who was running away or using their attacks that I needed to dodge.
My other complaint to the combat was how the system worked. It was a mix of Tab Targeting and directional AoE's. So it felt like they didn't have a solid base of which way the combat would be going (which is fine, this is why testing must be done).

I did ask Steven personally what his plan is with the precision bar, and what he told me was pretty sweet. What he's planning on doing is have multiple different precision bars like a circular one, or a circle that fills up, or different lighting (I believe) effects around the character, or different bars  to choose from, etc. He also stated that the UI can be changed (sounded like a lot), like being able to switch between the other precision bars/circles they'll have and moving em. Finally he said if the player base doesn't like all that they try, then we may scrap it (They are listening!)

Overall, they want our feedback! What I recommend is being constructive with your feedback, don't just say, "I don't like it, change it." That gets nothing changed.

Anyways, hope this helps!

ArchivedUser

Jeffrey basically said the same thing during the 5 minutes before he and Bacon started streaming on Day one. He was answering questions off of Twitch. He said the bar was there just as a place holder for PAX, and while the mechanic would not change, how it is displayed on the UI would.

ArchivedUser

So just a couple of thoughts on the combo slider:

I do lean towards having it gone & the combo opportunity represented by a visual cue instead. It's important as player that you can keep your eyes on the combat to react to things.

But I also get why having a slider makes sense as well - it's a completely different "skill test" and could work better for people with latency issues (as they can atleast predict when they should hit the key to land it in the "combo area").

So where the slider tests your precision at landing the keystroke, a visual cue would be more of a reaction speed test (since you can't really tell beforehand when combo moment will happen).


Some thought definitely needs to go into the combo system to get it right.

ArchivedUser

Stormilator said:

My opinion of how the game felt to me (Yes, I was at Pax).

Thanks for sharing. Probably would be good if you could start a topic of your AoC experience at PAX. Maybe other stuff, not just about the combat bar.

ArchivedUser

Hmm, if they said the mechanic won't be removed then I'm very interested in future modifications. I'm pretty confident the visual cue thing is already in the works. 

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

Jeffrey basically said the same thing during the 5 minutes before he and Bacon started streaming on Day one. He was answering questions off of Twitch. He said the bar was there just as a place holder for PAX, and while the mechanic would not change, how it is displayed on the UI would.

Not even worried about the system, as long as its a combination of action-targetting with faster timings on the timing bar than it has now and a set timing for each move.
That would just be godlike.
An example these devs could learn from is Absolver for example. While i get that its a totally different genre, it fits/has what they are trying to achieve which is a timing system thats usable even in stress situations while maintaining fast gameplay.

ArchivedUser

I for one actually like the idea of the new combat system.  Its something new to the genre.  The way i understand it working is that you gain combo points and focus when using the second part of the skill which allows you to use your other abilities more often, like a reward to good players who use the system the way it was designed.

They do need to improve the UI though so that we are not staring at a cast bar the whole fight.

That being said i haven't played it and i can't really form a real opinion on it until i have played it.

ArchivedUser

Stormilator said:

Finally he said if the player base doesn't like all that they try, then we may scrap it (They are listening!)

This is the only bit of hope I've seen.  Please let this be true.

ArchivedUser

I only played a Ranger at PAX...
Took some getting used to, but it was pretty fun.

I think their is potential with the combat system, but it needs a lot of fine-tuning.

I would like some other methods for accruing focus besides just combos from the weapon key. And I kinda wish the focus indicator matched the ultimate cool down.
It seems like once I gain focus, I should be able to immediately use my ultimate. Currently, as a Ranger, I can max my focus fairly quickly, but then I still have to wait 50 more seconds to do anything with it - if I've already used my ultimate.

Movement controls were clunky to me...but plenty of time to tweak.

ArchivedUser

I don't think the little combo thing needs to be scrapped. It could potentially make things interesting depending on what they all do with it. However, what should be changed is how it is displayed. Staring at a little bar is no fun. This could be fixed by a change in the UI (which we know it will in time) or via some sort of other visual cue.

Remember, this is not for every skill. The only time you will be using this little combo system is for your main weapon skill.