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Weapon Skill System- Discussion and Paths Forward
There have been many posts about the current combat system, especially the weapon skills and their randomized action timings. I won't be trying to rehash those posts (in fact, they've actually talked a lot about it on their Pax Panel on the look of the combo system and such)- rather, I'm going to try to outline different possibilities that could be created within the current system! This is important, because they've said that they'd like to keep the current system, if possible. Prepare for a wall of text, as this is gonna be a long one.
(Note 1- Now, this is all based on the demo. Since it's a demo, we may just not have enough information on the topic itself from Intrepid to actually grasp how it works. For all I know, they could already have some of the possible ideas I will outline already in motion. We don't know how close this specific part is to final AoC, and Steven's said that this demo is only what, 20% of what he thinks the combat should be? That being said, the worst kind of discussion is having no discussion, so I'd rather generate ideas and feedback for them now rather than later, when it's further along than 20%. They've also talked on this topic specifically during day 2 of Pax, and you can find it on their Twitch channel- it's the hour and 25 minute panel video, the question is answered a little after the hour mark)
First, let's take a look at the system itself. (Note 2- If you want to skip straight to action bar discussion, head down to 'The Good Thing').
That being said, does the idea of having more interaction being a good thing, and the current system mix well?
The 'Good Thing'-
Now, time to look at the weapon skills themselves. You can move while casting them, they have a combo system to build focus, and the combo system is mostly random. I elaborate on this on item 4, but there are already differences in the combo system between the classes shown in the demo. I believe the first point is necessary, the second point is a design choice that won't be changed, but I believe the third part can be edited, and changed, both for better or for worse (depending on your preferences).Now, they've already stated that the action bar, in it's current state, will be updated/upgraded so look much better than it does now, and I won't go into having an action bar versus some animations, as there are plenty of people who've done that already. Rather, I'm going to look into the system itself to see what can be changed, and how.
Now that this is all out of the way, it's time for talk on what we'd like most to see. Personally, I'd like option 2 the most. It adds a mastery curve for each weapon, but still requires that at least some attention is paid to achieve the combo system. While I think that the stat system would be one of the coolest things in any MMO, especially for crafters, it would also be the hardest and most time-consuming to implement, and for all I know it may not even be that rewarding to play with, so while it's a (distant) possibility, I don't think it'll happen. Now, what I'd like to see most in conjunction with option 2 is that it becomes based on certain tiers of weapons. For example, daggers have an over-arching theme of attacking within the first 2/3s, but maybe mithril daggers always go first half then first third, and steel daggers always go second third then second third, or something like that. And then maybe special named weapons would break the archetype, like a set of daggers that drop from a dragon always go first third then last third. This could all be pointless conjecture, but I can dream right? Right?!
How about everyone else? What're your thoughts? Have any of my 'possible' systems touched on what you'd like to see most? Have I missed the mark completely and you'd like to see something different, a fifth system? Are you reading this because you're interested but have faith in Intrepid and want to see what they come up and experience it yourself before passing judgement? Which of these would be game-breaking or game-saving for you should they keep the bar? Discussion time!
(Note 1- Now, this is all based on the demo. Since it's a demo, we may just not have enough information on the topic itself from Intrepid to actually grasp how it works. For all I know, they could already have some of the possible ideas I will outline already in motion. We don't know how close this specific part is to final AoC, and Steven's said that this demo is only what, 20% of what he thinks the combat should be? That being said, the worst kind of discussion is having no discussion, so I'd rather generate ideas and feedback for them now rather than later, when it's further along than 20%. They've also talked on this topic specifically during day 2 of Pax, and you can find it on their Twitch channel- it's the hour and 25 minute panel video, the question is answered a little after the hour mark)
First, let's take a look at the system itself. (Note 2- If you want to skip straight to action bar discussion, head down to 'The Good Thing').
The Basics-
Combat in Ashes of Creation appears to be a mixture of fast paced and slower paced elements. The fast paced element comes mostly from the weapon skills. You can move while casting these (as well as at least some of your other abilities), and there's the much discussed action bar that requires you to stay on your toes. The slow part comes from the abilities themselves- they have (relatively) long cooldowns, meaning that for your high-impact abilities you're going to have to think about when you use them.
The result of this mix means that there's going to be a decent amount of time just spent using your basic weapon skill, which means that it's a good thing that it's more engaging than an actual 'auto attack.' This is my opinion, but if you're going to have a lot of downtime between ability usages, then I'd rather have my go-to attack be more interactive than not. Now, it should be said that there will definitely be more skills to pull from than 8 in the actual game- this could severely reduce the downtime between skill uses depending on the situation. But unless you're always mashing your cooldowns, chances are you'll be using this attack quite often, plus it's the only way to generate focus for your ultimate, so they need to nail it.
Combat in Ashes of Creation appears to be a mixture of fast paced and slower paced elements. The fast paced element comes mostly from the weapon skills. You can move while casting these (as well as at least some of your other abilities), and there's the much discussed action bar that requires you to stay on your toes. The slow part comes from the abilities themselves- they have (relatively) long cooldowns, meaning that for your high-impact abilities you're going to have to think about when you use them.
The result of this mix means that there's going to be a decent amount of time just spent using your basic weapon skill, which means that it's a good thing that it's more engaging than an actual 'auto attack.' This is my opinion, but if you're going to have a lot of downtime between ability usages, then I'd rather have my go-to attack be more interactive than not. Now, it should be said that there will definitely be more skills to pull from than 8 in the actual game- this could severely reduce the downtime between skill uses depending on the situation. But unless you're always mashing your cooldowns, chances are you'll be using this attack quite often, plus it's the only way to generate focus for your ultimate, so they need to nail it.
That being said, does the idea of having more interaction being a good thing, and the current system mix well?
The 'Good Thing'-
Now, time to look at the weapon skills themselves. You can move while casting them, they have a combo system to build focus, and the combo system is mostly random. I elaborate on this on item 4, but there are already differences in the combo system between the classes shown in the demo. I believe the first point is necessary, the second point is a design choice that won't be changed, but I believe the third part can be edited, and changed, both for better or for worse (depending on your preferences).
- Patterned- This one is the most simple, other than completely randomized. Basically, there would be a set of patterns that could be created for each class/weapon archetype/specific weapon. This would allow for complete 'mastery' over a weapon if you're able to memorize the combo timings, but by the same token it would reduce much of the 'active' part of the system since once you learned it, you can afford to pay it much less attention. (Now, slightly off topic, but how cool would it be if patterns were based on the individual weapon?! Given weapon degradation and such, maybe it would help to get rid of the staleness since you'd have to relearn a pattern every time you picked up a new weapon, even of the same type? Or maybe you'd work extra hard to keep that weapon that you have not just because of the stats, but because you're used to it, much like how actual warriors would have their own preferred sword, etc, where you and only you have full mastery over it?)
- Randomized Within A Pattern- This is best illustrated by an example. Say that you're playing your ranger with a bow. Bows are more powerful the further you draw them. Therefore, the combo action will always take place in the final third of the bar, but be random within that third. Or take sword/shield- maybe the first attack is always in the middle, but then the second attack is towards the start. These patterns don't necessarily 'have to make sense' from a lore/realism perspective, and they can be based on class, weapon archetype, or anything really. Basically, it would lessen the amount of 'combo possibilities' and an argument could be made that it increases mastery, since as you get used to the pattern, you should be able to hit the still random timings more consistently. Since it also keeps part of the randomness, you may never achieve 'full mastery' or will be able to just 'not pay attention' to the combo. (Now, I said it didn't have to be based on anything, but it'd be really cool if they were tied to weapon mechanics/lore. Same thing with my bow example. Maybe daggers always hit near the start since they're made to have quick follow up attacks? Maybe if it's based on class mages always cast near the end because they have to recite their incantations first before comboing into the second incantation!)
- With Tuning- Now, this one's a bit special, and as such would require the most work. The idea here is that the player would have some control over the timings of the combo action because it would be influenced/based on item/player stats!! Think about it- they've stated a bajillion times how in-depth they want their crafting system to be- why not add another layer? It could be given a label like 'weight' (higher weight = slower attacks = combo at end of bar since slower attacks have more time to be interrupted), or be based on attack speed, or be based on armor weight, or something of the sort. The idea here is that it would either decrease the range of possible timings (like make it always happen in the first half if you stat high enough), or maybe increase the likelihood of the combo happening in certain sections (although I like that second idea much less, because it leaves the random element and infuses another random element to make it 'more predictable'). While this would be the hardest to accomplish, it would possibly be the most satisfying system of all from a unique-ness perspective, as crafters can manipulate this, items that drop can have different stats causing differentiation between them, or characters can build for it. That being said, it still retains the greatest part of randomization compared to the other two unless you stat for it somehow.
- Keep Randomization- The last option would be to leave it as is, with minimal changes. Based on what I've seen of gameplay, while the pink bar's position in the combo bar is random, the size of the pink bar and the speed at which the combo bar travels (I think) is not. What I mean by this is that the mage's first pink bar is always smaller than the second bar, whereas both of the ranger's pink bars are the same size. This indicates that while the position is random, not all factors are. Maybe we just don't have enough information, or maybe because it's preeeeeeeee-alpha they haven't had time to implement a lot of tuning with it, and the fact that it's mostly random is just placeholder. Or maybe they'll keep it as is and just tune it slightly based on player feedback. Regardless, this is a viable, if not probable, option because it's what we already see.
Now that this is all out of the way, it's time for talk on what we'd like most to see. Personally, I'd like option 2 the most. It adds a mastery curve for each weapon, but still requires that at least some attention is paid to achieve the combo system. While I think that the stat system would be one of the coolest things in any MMO, especially for crafters, it would also be the hardest and most time-consuming to implement, and for all I know it may not even be that rewarding to play with, so while it's a (distant) possibility, I don't think it'll happen. Now, what I'd like to see most in conjunction with option 2 is that it becomes based on certain tiers of weapons. For example, daggers have an over-arching theme of attacking within the first 2/3s, but maybe mithril daggers always go first half then first third, and steel daggers always go second third then second third, or something like that. And then maybe special named weapons would break the archetype, like a set of daggers that drop from a dragon always go first third then last third. This could all be pointless conjecture, but I can dream right? Right?!
How about everyone else? What're your thoughts? Have any of my 'possible' systems touched on what you'd like to see most? Have I missed the mark completely and you'd like to see something different, a fifth system? Are you reading this because you're interested but have faith in Intrepid and want to see what they come up and experience it yourself before passing judgement? Which of these would be game-breaking or game-saving for you should they keep the bar? Discussion time!
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Comments
butTM....(grimaces) I think the idea of the randomised hit window is to prevent bots, scripts, macros.
Shifting the window of opportunity around makes it impossible to predict.
This makes such ideas as tuned patterns problematic if not impossible.
If there was a way to have tuned signature weapons that have to be mastered on an individual basis, although others could use them to a lesser degree (in a pinch) and it didnt break the anti-botting system (if thats the intent) then I wouldnt object to something along those lines myself.
To add to your thoughts rather than start a new thread...I will add my own considerably larger wall of text in a moment BECAUSE BIGGER IS BETTER GOD DAMN IT!
I guess you can never have too many options to choose from
The Balanced class vs PvP TTK dilemna.
Balanced Multistage Powershots.
It has been commented that the PvP balance at the moment is everyone is unkillable.
Which in essence is the way it should be, if builds are played to their full potential and neither player makes a mistake.
The result of balanced classes is that they will stalemate when going toe to toe, without putting the opponent off balance.
Although killing the opponent is not necessarily the objective, just something we have been indoctrinated into doing.
The trick then, is to force your opponent into a mistake to gain the potential to kill an opponent, but what is a mistake ?
The game is based around using the right skill, in the right place, at the right time.
So making a mistake is being voluntarily or compelled into using the wrong skill, at the wrong time or in the wrong place.
This means you need to penalise out of sequence, mistimed attacks, attacks from bad locations or bad attack responses.
Or more correctly, make players who do so more vulnerable or at a disadvantage.
All of which should be hardware agnostic as much as possible.
Its the becoming vulnerable aspect that has to be the core focus of amplified damage.
This vulnerability should only arise out of bad player choices.
But there should be no reward without risk either, according to the game philosophy.
And here in lies the solution to the increased damage dilemma, that doesn't result in a vertical progression arms race.
You should be able to inflict massive damage on your opponent for making mistakes...but not without massive risk to yourself.
Increasing your momentary focus on all out damage should completely remove your momentary focus on defence.
That means making bad choices will rapidly get you killed, rather than give someone godmode according to time played or cash invested.
If you are defending and enable your abilities to be impaired or disabled, you will probably die.
How quickly depends on how impaired you are and for how long.
If you are an attacker and try to kill someone quick through overwhelming force, you will probably die through total vulnerability, unless your opponent is first disabled or considerably impaired.
With all this in mind I propose an enhanced powershot system.
This is indicative to give an example and convey an idea rather than sacrosanct numbers.
This uses a 5 stage accumulating binary chop method for amplitude and frequency.
This is an attempt to increase the skill impact and difficulty, without being excessively cumbersome and time consuming.
Releasing the skill button resets the powershot and may or may not produce an amplified powershot.
It all depends on if the button release took place within 1 of the following 5 windows of opportunity.
Stage 1. The button is held for up to 1.024 second with a 256ms window of opportunity with a random offset and within a 1.024s time span.
This gives 6% power bonus if the 1st window of opportunity is hit....but also a 6% reduction in the attackers own armour rating for the following 1s with a 1s powershot cooldown
While holding the button all other active/passive skills are disabled or reset.
The player must remain stationary with a properly anchored stance to perform a powershot.
If you're multitasking your not focusing 100% on the task at hand.
Stage 2. The button remains held for up to 1.536 second with a second pass 128ms window of opportunity with a random offset within an additional 0.512s time span, making 1.536s of elapsed time.
This gives 12% power bonus if the 2nd window of opportunity is hit....but also a 12% reduction in the attackers own armour rating for the following 2s with a 2s powershot cooldown
While holding the button all other active/passive skills are disabled or reset.
The player must remain stationary with a properly anchored stance to perform a powershot.
If you're multitasking your not focusing 100% on the task at hand.
Stage 3. The button remains held for up to 1.792 second with a third pass 64ms window of opportunity with a random offset within an additional 0.256s time span, making 1.792s of elapsed time.
This gives 25% power bonus if the 3rd window of opportunity is hit....but also a 25% reduction in the attackers own armour rating for the following 4s with a 4s powershot cooldown
While holding the button all other active/passive skills are disabled or reset.
The player must remain stationary with a properly anchored stance to perform a powershot.
If you're multitasking your not focusing 100% on the task at hand.
Stage 4. The button remains held for up to 1.920 second with a fourth pass 32ms window of opportunity with a random offset within an additional 0.128s time span, making 1.920s of elapsed time.
This gives 50% power bonus if the 4th window of opportunity is hit....but also a 50% reduction in the attackers own armour rating for the following 8s with a 8s powershot cooldown
While holding the button all other active/passive skills are disabled or reset.
The player must remain stationary with a properly anchored stance to perform a powershot.
If you're multitasking your not focusing 100% on the task at hand.
Stage 5. The button remains held for up to 1.984 second with a fifth pass 16ms window of opportunity with a random offset within an additional 0.064s time span, making 1.984s of elapsed time.
This gives 100% power bonus if the 5th window of opportunity is hit....but also a 100% reduction in the attackers own armour rating for the following 16s with a 16s powershot cooldown
While holding the button all other active/passive skills are disabled or reset.
The player must remain stationary with a properly anchored stance to perform a powershot.
If you're multitasking your not focusing 100% on the task at hand.
{16.66'ms is the equivalent of 1 frame on a 60hz screen.}
/home/leaving?target=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFlicker_fusion_threshold" class="Popup
Conclusion.
Using powershots will put you at a massive defensive disadvantage on the battelfield.
If you are safe for the following time window then that risk will be worth it.
But you will only be safe if your opponent(s) is/are disabled or impaired.
The 100% armour reduction for 16s is aimed at those snipers that would remain out of range, expecting risk free one shot kills, without response.
Powering up in itself, makes you a temporary sitting duck, with no guarantee you can pull off the powershot and make that sacrifice worthwhile.
Button mashing is reduced, minimising the instruction load on the servers.
Strategy Intelligence Skill Caution is Rewarded.
Impatience Greed Stupidity Carelessness is Punished.
TTK can be both quick and slow, depending on the competence of the adversary's and their choices rather than machine or dev choices.
Large unskilled numbers can be overcome by small skilled numbers.
Using line of sight for cover and maybe even solid ground for anchoring or high ground for advantage, can all come into play and effect the skill shot.
Problems.
Without the ever more difficult window of opportunity, ranged attacks would far exceed the damage capability of melee players, given their damage free safety period at range.
Yes tanks can chain pull, but ranger and mage for example, have escape ability to counter that.
It would however be far less problematic if all builds had ranged ability...rather than keep the concept of pure melee classes.
This would be inline with the cleric using their staff for melee combat (just because its a range weapon doesn't mean you cant hit people with it).
In that token, perhaps swords, axes and maces should be thrown weapons too....although the range/speed should probably be limited by weight.
Alternatively, you could decrease the scale of the powershot damage by range or even combine the various suggestions.
ie. Big weapons can be thrown a short distance but have the chance to inflict massive powershot damage.
That would also require giving mage and ranger melee ability by either touch damage or perhaps using arrows for stabbing as an example.
Why? Well, balancing for an NPC is easy. You know exactly how long a STUN should last, and making sure that you put all your bonuses and augments towards that creature being STUNNED longer is crucial for follow up attacks. Now, for a PC, STUN or any character altering effects cannot at any time last the same amount of time as NCPs, the reason being that the HP of an NPC differs greatly than PCs. I can take down a player in less than 5 seconds if done correctly. If the stun is for 3 seconds, that means that for over 60% of the PCs HP I am able to have my way. An NPC on the other hand, has enough HP to last my onslaught, and even get a few more attacks in. Even if not, there is not another "Player" behind the character that will be frustrated that they were STUNNED for half the fight.
We will have ranged attacks, sneak attacks, ranged spells, and all these mechanics that may work flawlessly for NPCs, but unless they are specifically balanced for PvP, they will cause headaches. No matter what type or style of combat system we end up with.
Very astute point.
Which is why you cant just have stun off stun on (especially with no recourse to remove that stun at any cost).
CC off and CC on.
Root off and Root on.
Pull Range full distance. Push range full distance.
You need to put counterplay on exactly the same level of importance as direct combat. Forcing your opponent to be where he doesnt want to be, crippling abilities he/she depends on, putting them at a disadvantage they dont want.
But in response, the opponent has to be able to not only see those forms of attack but be able to block them, negate them, reduce them and reverse them. Maybe even reflect them.
All of these makes me believe the only real way to make this work is to have stages of stun, stages of root, stages of CC.....and your opponent can naturally ngeate them just as easily as you apply them.
BUT...the opponent gets a choice if doing so is prudent at this very moment in this place and how much energy they want to expend or even if they can live with some types of inability as doing something else is more advantageous.
Eg standard movement speed = 50%
Speed buff = +10% movement speed
Root debuff = -10% movement speed.
They root....you speed. You speed...they root. You wnat to root someone to the spot you have to stack 5 roots at 5x cost and 5x time elapsed.
The above scenario would be a far greater problem for a ranged damage dealer than a tank.
EDIT: you can make this class specific too if you want. Giving everyone 10% speed and 10% root. But you give tank 15-20% root. You give rogue 15-20% speed. This makes them classes better but it is does not make all other classes useless/handicapped/exploitable.
The best UI is UI you barely notice, or don't even notice (almost forget it exists) while playing, and get immersed in environment instead.
This is why I prefer this bar to be removed completely and this mechanic be tied to character animations, or glows of some kind on color of circle around character feet, or any other character effect.