Range Class frustrations

ArchivedUser

This is an issue that bother me on every mmorpg. Character/Classes that are supposed to be ranged, don't have actual range.

On almost all, if not all mmorpg's, a ranger, be it a mage or a hunter is easily aproached by a melee fighter with some skill.

Ranger are supposed to fight from far away, not from the same distance as melee fighters.

So this is an issue that I ask you about, hope to get an answer from development...

Much Love to you all.

ArchivedUser

@Jowtrumundo
 its been discussed before, but i definitely see you point. The only hallmark is the Action-Combat ability shown in PAX Pre-Alpha Tutorial Video where it shows the Ranger jump-rolling back then releasing a ... " feint-shot ".

Because of this is PAX Pre-Alpha, more abilities could definitely be added that better conveys the Ranger  . But everything we've seen on the PAX Pre-Alpha is not permanently staying. 

Why not mention some ideas you have ? I hear that Devs do read the Forums 

ArchivedUser

Jowtrumundo said:

This is an issue that bother me on every mmorpg. Character/Classes that are supposed to be ranged, don't have actual range.

On almost all, if not all mmorpg's, a ranger, be it a mage or a hunter is easily aproached by a melee fighter with some skill.

Ranger are supposed to fight from far away, not from the same distance as melee fighters.

So this is an issue that I ask you about, hope to get an answer from development...

Much Love to you all.

How do you keep this balanced for melee fighters though?

ArchivedUser

@tugowar
Ironic that you asked that - i mentioned something similar to it in my 4th post in this Thread

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/35797/classes-balacing-64-classes-and-classes-preview#latest

Honestly though, I'm not sure. I guess we'll have to see Intrepid Initial Idea of the Close-Range Class ( Fighter-Archetype )

ArchivedUser

Ranged should not mean invincible to melee fighters.
But that is why you have anchor, pull, push, gapmaker, gapcloser, root and speed counterplay mechanisms.
Roll, Block, Absorb, Deflect, Reflect skills are also useful.

Or do you really expect to kill all short range players without them having the ability to respond in any way ?

ArchivedUser

tugowar said:

Jowtrumundo said:

This is an issue that bother me on every mmorpg. Character/Classes that are supposed to be ranged, don't have actual range.

On almost all, if not all mmorpg's, a ranger, be it a mage or a hunter is easily aproached by a melee fighter with some skill.

Ranger are supposed to fight from far away, not from the same distance as melee fighters.

So this is an issue that I ask you about, hope to get an answer from development...

Much Love to you all.

How do you keep this balanced for melee fighters though?

This is the first question that comes to mind, if mages and hunter have a greater range than melee skills, how will Melee Players defeat ranger opponents?

There are many ways, besides the basic ability we see in all mmo, which is a dash or a pull, there could be many other skills such as defensive and stealth.

Anyways, giving more range to mages and hunters, is something that needs balance, so melee don't be at a disadvantage.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

Ranged should not mean invincible to melee fighters.
But that is why you have anchor, pull, push, gapmaker, gapcloser, root and speed counterplay mechanisms.
Roll, Block, Absorb, Deflect, Reflect skills are also useful.

Or do you really expect to kill all short range players without them having the ability to respond in any way ?

Not invincible, all i am saying is that they should have an actual range, from all the mmorpg's i have played, i can't remember none with a realistic range.

This is why i am bringing this up.

ArchivedUser

It seems this is just a statement focused on pvp?! In pve there is a huge difference between being ranged or melee mostly the stuff you have to dodge and target switching. In pvp you just can't balance it. if your weapon had a huge range, that would actually mean that your character should loose the second you are in close combat. And i guarantee you people will whine because a rogue sneaks up and you auto loose. 

Regarding "realistic" range i would like to know how far a fireball goes in the real world. Also i doubt you can accurately hit a human moving unpredictably with bow and arrow reliably. Basically i'm saying there is not really a point to argue with realism in video games.

If you want a class that has really long range but is balanced by auto loosing in melee combat, more power to you. I personally would not enjoy such a class a all.

ArchivedUser

Lower range isn't a problem in MMOs that give ranged classes a lots of movement / CC skills so that even with lower range they are able (using players skill) able to stay away from melee classes that try to use their player skills to approach ranged classes, and then it becomes battle of players (their skills) rather then battle of classes.

I'm hoping Ashes will add much more skills to classes than what is seen at PAX and then things would be OK.

If ranged classes would remain only with 1 movement skill (with CD) then this would indeed be a big problem for them.

ArchivedUser

As a bow hunter ( not in game i pref melee) 30 maybe 40 yards with a modern compound bow. This again depends on what your hunting, I'm talking about having enough force to kill a deer not an armored soldier. Lets also remember i have modern alloy for shafts and tips. Inline sights and a counter balance. Also i cant use wooden arrows because it destroys them on release.

Now re-curves are good about 20 to maybe 30 yards. Again we are talking modern materials and arrows.

Historically the English longbow could go 200 yards but it was also 6.5 feet in length ( strung) so i hope your not a dwarf ranger trying to use that. or anyone trying to carry it in a dungeon, Forrest or well anywhere but a city.

But if your short the cross bow is an option since your arms are not long enough to even pull that 6.5 foot monster back ?

Most games show a re-curve bow so yea i think 30 to 40 is a little far for what they are supposed to be able to accomplish 20 yards probably be more realistic against a plate or mail wearer maybe 40 yards against a cloth / leather wearer ?

ArchivedUser

Range vrs Melee always made me laugh in MMO's

I completely understand why melee needs to be balanced against range in a "Game"

But there is a reason armies carry guns with knives only for back up.

Yes I play range because I want them dead "BEFORE" they reach me. I don't want to fight fair, I want to live.

ArchivedUser

IMO rangers, mages etc are not supposed to 1v1 people unless they are some kind of sniper. I think they should be used in parties, where they deal a lot of dmg from a distance.

Some CC skills are of course necessary for running/ keeping a distance, but shouldn't be there so you can 1v1 a melee fighter.

ArchivedUser

get good in kiting and u dont have trouble as range dd in most games.

ArchivedUser

Well if we talk about realism then ranged should definitely run faster then someone in heavy armor.

And since we will not have that, then the game will be most fun if classes are balanced, and 1 vs 1 fights depends on player skill, and not on what class you play.

Having class A auto win class B (in 1 vs 1), B auto win C, and C auto win A is just so dumb game play that I would never touch Ashes with a 10 foot pole if it will be like that.

ArchivedUser

it is impossible to Balance 1v1, there will always be one class stronger then the other in certain matchups.

ArchivedUser

Roxx said:

it is impossible to Balance 1v1, there will always be one class stronger then the other in certain matchups.

It is impossible to balance 100% perfectly, and no one is asking for that.

It is very possible, however, to balance 95% super close.

ArchivedUser

It's when some classes are purely designed to counter others it gets boring.

ArchivedUser

I'm also hoping that they make some range abilities that fly farther then we normally see. With the hybrid tabtarget/action combat system, they could allow range abilities to be skilled up to require aim but gain longer range. Similar to how the shield bash goes from a single target ability to a cone ability. i'm hoping that we will be able to see players arching arrows and spells at each other from across the battlefield. 

ArchivedUser

Well Steven already stated that they are not balancing for 1v1 but for groups instead 

ArchivedUser

From what we have seen from the samples of Ranger abilities - I get the impression its all about "keeping a distance" from your target. However I must emphasize that the Ranger we have seen so far is a BOW wielding Ranger.

http://aocwiki.net/Ranger (sample of skills from PAX and Alpha 0 shared on the latest stream).

I'm curious to see how various weapon types will influence ranged classes, particularly Ranger - because I can not imagine it without a bow.

In addition Ashes of Creation is about offering players a variety of options when it comes to customizing their character. From augmentation, to skill trees, to weapon choice etc so I imagine we will see very varied types of Rangers (close and long range). In saying that the ones that are close range I imagine will be purposefully built that way because its the preference of the player. Its not a forced choice (that goes for all other classes!). 

Pretty excited to see what the players can do!

ArchivedUser

I think mage tank might be OP.

High DPS, mobility (teleport), freezing targets, immunity from illusions, and add an extra mitigation from secondary archetype, and boom, you got yourself a killer.

ArchivedUser

I'm in agreement with the OP.

If I'm a ranged class, I expect to have a range of 50m to 100m on target as "area" ranged.  If I'm for example a "sniper" ranged, I expect to have a range of 100m-300m on target.  "Area" ranged should have medium duration cool downs, "sniper" ranged should  have long cool downs on heavy hitting abilities.

A good melee will simply work on his gap closing as a matter of "timing" and "damage mitigation".

I don't like ranged turning out to be nothing more than a character that can't target anything more than 35m away - and can't defend himself against a target with instant closing abilities.

Give ranged "range" - but with tradeoffs on cool downs for heavy hitting abilities.

=8-)

ArchivedUser

TL;DR:  Much of which that's mentioned is purely unknown & can be substituted with other ... " Foundations " to be build upon.

EDIT: Don't condition yourself as to what the Modern industry has lead you to believe. Rather, think outside-the-box & what could be. 

( If not .. its just going to feel the same stuff we've seen before )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• 64 Different Archetype sounds amazing, but how much of a difference will it be ?A Drastic Change or unnoticeable change ? Will each Archetype-Blends have different Abilities ? Or just a difference in Text ? Will the Ability Animation(s) change ? or just a small change  the Ability Description " ?

Because when i think think of the Different Archetypes-Blends ... I'm en-visualizing an entirely different Overall-Class that varies drastically from other Archetype-Blends of that same Primary-Archetype ( including Secondary-Archetype ) extraordinarily from one another.

Because so far ... its just seems to be a Ability Description change with the potential of Ability Animation(s) change(s).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another note, " kiting " does not have to exists in Ashes of Creation. They could instead be replaced by Action-Combat/ Hybrid Action-Combat.  I don't mention Tab-targeting because that's how Kiting started

• Whilst using Tab-Targeting, Long-range basic attacks behave like a Heat-Seeking-Missile, avoid any Close-Range via Movement impairs and exploiting dumb NPCs' A..I.
•  
  

Instead, just replaced the constant need of pressing WASD ... with Adaptive-Action-Combat Abilities all being unique to each Archetype. But not Spammy like KingdomHearts' Dodge Roll Spam

( For those who played it ... you know what i mean xD)

ArchivedUser

Man I love kingdom hearts, like a weird amount. It's been my favourite game franchise since the original. There was a lot of spammy abilities in bbs.

ArchivedUser

Im new to the forums but these are my ideas on ranged being more accurate to real ranged combat. You could always make ranged attacks pierce defense(armor) at a diminishing rate or lose accuracy if you are outside of a "recommended" range. Or.. and i know its probably not a very viable option... have the ability to physically dodge the ranged attacks either physical or magical by moving your character and not based on a stat value. You could also have the option of aiming first person if you choose and have similar mechanics to how archery worked in the thief series with arrow drop and varying weights of arrow heads causing more or less drop. obviously no guide line. I do think there has to be a maximum range. would be ridiculous for someone to arc an arrow across a whole battlefield. Though a whole regiment of archers firing volleys during pvp would be a sight to see

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

Well if we talk about realism then ranged should definitely run faster then someone in heavy armor.

And since we will not have that, then the game will be most fun if classes are balanced, and 1 vs 1 fights depends on player skill, and not on what class you play.

Having class A auto win class B (in 1 vs 1), B auto win C, and C auto win A is just so dumb game play that I would never touch Ashes with a 10 foot pole if it will be like that.

No bloody way. Skill should have some impact, perhaps a lot, but balancing classes to the point where class doesn't matter it's just a waste of the class system to begin with. I do agree there shouldn't be auto win scenarios, but each class should be strong against some and weak against others. What you suggest sounds dangerously like wow and any other Dev that over balanced classes. 

ArchivedUser

@Blind_Mouse I haven't played wow recently so I don't know how it is now. But in Vanilla WOW was awesome. And if Ashes would have classes balanced like Vanilla WoW had, I will be the happiest player here.

ArchivedUser

Sorry, the original post was about distance of ranged attacks. My personal thoughts is that range should be based on several variables. For projectiles that react to any physics; wind, weather, elevation, material quality, etc. can possibly impact distance. The player's experience with using the weapon should be a variable. It's the player moving, on horseback or badly injured? Etc, etc. Magic ranged? Well, mostly the same. I still believe there should be variables. A mage who specializes or has a better focal item might gain additional range or slightly higher accuracy when aiming. 

Someone mentioned how melee handles attacks from an archer. Use armor? Find cover? Have archer/mage teammates? Send in your war dog? Carry a crossbow? A under equipped tank should die if they simply try to close the gap. 

ArchivedUser

I'd like to see a standard shot, not using class skills, that works like skyrim, where you can go into first person and actually aim.   You had to get good with the bow in order to hit at range, especially if it was a moving target.   I think combining this with class skills might be a bit over the top, but as a standard shot could work and be fun.

ArchivedUser

I haven't played AOC, but you could always make range atk. have more range than gap closers. That way ranged builds get the advantage of range, but aren't impossible for Melee builds to kill. What that range difference is depends on the potential for burst dmg. of ranged abilities. e.g. Higher burst dmg requires lower advantage to range, Lower burst dmg requires higher advantage to range.