Solution - Button Mashing


No Button Mashing - 2m50s

The Problem I have with the combo skill and ulitmate generation,
is that it requires button mashing to function effectively.
Which is the exact thing that Steven stated would not be promoted in the video link above.
You must deploy skills as soon as they become available to use them optimally.

So, i need to give a demonstration of why that is so.
Imagine two ultimates....

Ultimate type 1
...You gain 2x outgoing damage when activated.
(This guarantees that your time to kill an opponent will be halved. Whoever dies first loses, so your opponent must reciprocate)

Ultimate type 2
...You gain 2x outgoing damage when activated.
...You gain 2x incoming damage when activated.
(This guarantees nothing other than the fact the Net difference in damage 'could' be upto 2x and 'might' halve the time to kill an opponent...but only if you can avoid all incoming damage)

All modern games adopt ultimate type 1 where there is no penalty for using the ultimate.
So any min maxer incorporates that when establishing optimal rotations.
They will work out the time to execute a selection of skills for the greatest Net advantage over any adversary.
No cool down time will be wasted and damage maximised (especially with ultimates) at the same time.
Traditionally there was no RNG gated aspect to skill use, so Macros are and were used for this rotation purpose.
Ashes eliminates the macro problem with the combo bar, but it does not eliminate the need for optimal rotations.
Worse, ultimates are also 100% dependant upon the combo skill success through 'focus'.
So we have simply gone from a fixed spammed skill rotation to an RNG/skill impacted spammed skill rotation.
Button mashing (rotations) remain, even if it is slowed down by cool downs or complicated by the RNG combo mechanism.

Now lets go back to the dawn of gaming where there was no risk without reward, where everything positive came with a negative to ensure balance across the board.
Ultimate 2 ...in contrast.... will only be deployed if your opponent will come off worse when deploying it.
If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time....if your opponent can avoid more damage than you...you will come off worse.
eg. They can hide behind a wall while you stand in open ground.
Thus, rather than a spammable skill that is a necessary part of optimal rotation,
we instead have a situational skill which will not be spammed under any circumstances.
Or more correctly, the player is given the choice to deploy a skill wrongly and make a mistake for which they are punished.

Conclusion.
Button mashing can only be eliminated by forcing negative consequences upon the use of skills, which then inhibits the benefit of, and compulsory use of, rotations for optimal performance. Instead requiring the need for thoughtful use of skills before deployment....aka...tactical combat.

Comments


  • No Button Mashing - 2m50s

    The Problem I have with the combo skill and ulitmate generation,
    is that it requires button mashing to function effectively.
    Which is the exact thing that Steven stated would not be promoted in the video link above.
    You must deploy skills as soon as they become available to use them optimally.

    So, i need to give a demonstration of why that is so.
    Imagine two ultimates....

    Ultimate type 1
    ...You gain 2x outgoing damage when activated.
    (This guarantees that your time to kill an opponent will be halved. Whoever dies first loses, so your opponent must reciprocate)

    Ultimate type 2
    ...You gain 2x outgoing damage when activated.
    ...You gain 2x incoming damage when activated.
    (This guarantees nothing other than the fact the Net difference in damage 'could' be upto 2x and 'might' halve the time to kill an opponent...but only if you can avoid all incoming damage)

    All modern games adopt ultimate type 1 where there is no penalty for using the ultimate.
    So any min maxer incorporates that when establishing optimal rotations.
    They will work out the time to execute a selection of skills for the greatest Net advantage over any adversary.
    No cool down time will be wasted and damage maximised (especially with ultimates) at the same time.
    Traditionally there was no RNG gated aspect to skill use, so Macros are and were used for this rotation purpose.
    Ashes eliminates the macro problem with the combo bar, but it does not eliminate the need for optimal rotations.
    Worse, ultimates are also 100% dependant upon the combo skill success through 'focus'.
    So we have simply gone from a fixed spammed skill rotation to an RNG/skill impacted spammed skill rotation.
    Button mashing (rotations) remain, even if it is slowed down by cool downs or complicated by the RNG combo mechanism.

    Now lets go back to the dawn of gaming where there was no risk without reward, where everything positive came with a negative to ensure balance across the board.
    Ultimate 2 ...in contrast.... will only be deployed if your opponent will come off worse when deploying it.
    If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time....if your opponent can avoid more damage than you...you will come off worse.
    eg. They can hide behind a wall while you stand in open ground.
    Thus, rather than a spammable skill that is a necessary part of optimal rotation,
    we instead have a situational skill which will not be spammed under any circumstances.
    Or more correctly, the player is given the choice to deploy a skill wrongly and make a mistake for which they are punished.

    Conclusion.
    Button mashing can only be eliminated by forcing negative consequences upon the use of skills, which then inhibits the benefit of, and compulsory use of, rotations for optimal performance. Instead requiring the need for thoughtful use of skills before deployment....aka...tactical combat.
    Rune, your definition of "button mashing" is different to mine. My definition is
    The combo system in Ashes (as it is currently defined) makes button mashing nonviable, because the skill window requires precise timing. By this definition, mashing will almost always cause the combo to fail and hence your ultimate will fail. 

    I realize that that the word "negative" has not been used in this context, but from a pure numerical perspective, failure to execute a combo does have a negative affect on your throughput relative to players who time their combos correctly. 

    I may have misinterpreted your post, so please correct me if I'm wrong :)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    @lexmax
    My definition of button mashing is playing whack a mole with cool down timers. The way the system works at the moment is you must chain your damage together ASAP to optimise damage in the shortest time window. ie Do more damage than your opponent in less time. The current system does not stop this spamfest....just slows it down and complicates it.

    'the skill window requires precise timing' is evidence in itself.
  • If I didnt know better Id say intrepid was trolling us.
    whack a mole with the combo bar.
    1111 111 111 11 111 with the skill bar.
    :tongue:
  • Imo a good solution would be to remove all dmg skills that would be viable most of the time(or assign a very long cooldown to them / limited charges) and replace them with a bunch of highly situational skills.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Uao said:
    Imo a good solution would be to remove all dmg skills that would be viable most of the time(or assign a very long cooldown to them / limited charges) and replace them with a bunch of highly situational skills.
    Yeah, I was pondering the same thing myself after the original post.
    It still lets us keep the rng skill shot to stop macros too.
    Even if I do hate the way its currently implemented from an immersion viewpoint.

    Another bonus. Are cooldowns really necessary if people wont spam skills with this 'situational skill' way of working ?
    Normally, we try to regulate the cost/damage/second to control and limit the use of skills because of the stacked sequencing of skills one after another (rotation).
    If rotations are rarely viable....it could enable gameplay to feel much much more fluid, without the gameplay issues it would normally cause.
    There wont be a minimum DPS contest if you cant use rotations.

    :thinking:
  • @Rune_Relic
    Yes, the increased cooldown i mentioned was ment to be exclusive to non situational skills to prevent people from using them regulary, but instead to only use them if theres no situational skill that suits the situation.

    The combo mechanic isnt really situational (without major change) exept its long duration through repeated charges, so it would more likely be a long cd skill if applied to my idea.
  • Uao said:
    Imo a good solution would be to remove all dmg skills that would be viable most of the time(or assign a very long cooldown to them / limited charges) and replace them with a bunch of highly situational skills.
    Yeah, I was pondering the same thing myself after the original post.
    It still lets us keep the rng skill shot to stop macros too.
    Even if I do hate the way its currently implemented from an immersion viewpoint.

    Another bonus. Are cooldowns really necessary if people wont spam skills with this 'situational skill' way of working ?
    Normally, we try to regulate the cost/damage/second to control and limit the use of skills because of the stacked sequencing of skills one after another (rotation).
    If rotations are rarely viable....it could enable gameplay to feel much much more fluid, without the gameplay issues it would normally cause.
    There wont be a minimum DPS contest if you cant use rotations.

    :thinking:
    I actually mentioned this in another thread, but I would actually propose decreasing the amount of mana/stamina that is held by a character. My first mmo was City of Heroes, and not only did it have no auto-attack, but it had no weapon skill that used no endurance. Every skill needed endurance to use, and it would charge up slowly. You could burn through all of it in just a few rotations if you started nuking things, and if you did, all the buffs keeping you alive shut off and you end up standing there like an idiot. In fact it was really easy to have enough passive skills on to pull in a negative endurance rate. What this did was that it made you need to ration your endurance during combat if you knew it was going to last, or bring enough consumables to keep pace with your skills. This, combined with some hefty cooldowns for your most potent and versatile skills, meant combat tended to be much more slow and deliberate, and you would use the skill most suited for the situation instead of just spamming them all.

    I noticed in the PAX footage that nobody that I saw even got to half mana/stamina, no matter how fast they were using skills. Now, I figure this is because the launch game will have us using way, way more than just a single set of 8 skills, as well as the simple lack of balance in a pre-pre alpha demo of the game, but I think my point still stands.

    I actually like the combo system as it functions, though I do think it could do with some changes in how it looks. The confirmation that we will be able to fully customize it has me totally at least on it. Still, your point on button mashing does still hold, there is rarely a situation that I can see in the PAX gameplay where you should not be using all your skills at all times, though in a more competitive or difficult situation, some skills may become more situational (for instance, a ranger worth having in the group should not be spamming his fallback skill, but should save it for when he actually needs it. The mage's Ice prison honestly seemed to fail its immobilize so much though that saving it for when you actually need that effect is asking for disappointment and pain. If you look at the tutorial vid it even fails to proc on the tank when showing off the spell.) I think there are some easy ways to fine tune a skill to make it more situational, namely, by focusing on its non-damaging effects as its primary effect. This way, the player CAN spam it, but will then miss out on using it to its fullest potential. A crappy ranger will find he can't dive out of a mob when he needs to, or a mage that teleports into combat suddenly finds she can't teleport out, or a charging enemy can't be stopped because she used ice prison to get a bit more damage out of her spell rotation, and is now in melee with a fighter.

    In short, instead of directly punishing players for spamming skills, they should be rewarded for using them situationally. To accomplish this I recommend three things:

    • Greatly reduce the skill casting resource so that running out mid-combat is a concern to those who spam a skill rotation.
    • Make sure that as few skills as possible are pure damage skills, and that there are as many combat utility skills as possible, either pure utility, or as a side effect.
    • Increase the side effects of hybrid utility skills to make them more reliable, and a greater incentive to use the skill than another form of damage so that they can be relied upon by those who save them for the proper situation.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    lmfao.
    Button-mashing will not help you with combos in Ashes.
    Button-mashing will cause you to fail the QTE in the vast majority of cases.
    And you will be stuck with just repeating the basic weapon attack at fixed intervals.
    The QTE is what prevents button-mashing from being effective - especially in conjunction with the cooldowns on the non-weapon abilities.

    The notion that the way the Ashes combat system works is that you must press buttons as soon as possible is false.
    It is very, very clear that Rune-Relic has not actually played the combat demos.
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