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Crafting - Research

It's just a possible idea I've always liked thinking about, but what if Crafting professions could unlock "unknown recipe/blueprint" by experimentation.

For example Alchemy.
Say you have the variables of Heat, Mixing Time, Ingredient Amounts, (and maybe things like order of ingredients), and in total, all variables have to be within a certain % range of 'correctness' to be counted as a success, thus unlocking the unknown recipe for the crafter. 
I personally like this idea as it rewards those that really go in and spends time and hard work in a profession, but what are your thoughts?

Comments

  • The mechanic has already been discussed and is being implemented. They are also looking at a limited run exclusive recipe system for master crafters. If you happen to be the first person to discover that recipe, you will have a time period where it is exclusive to you to craft, or possible sell rights to craft. Instead of experimentation, the recipe process will be part of the dismantle process. From the Ashes...rebirth.
  • A step in the right direction!
    Shame there is no experimentation though, I think it would add a much needed depth  to crafting for crafting maniacs :D 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    The comment was an answer to "Will resources have a depth of stats similar to SWG crafting?" The answer was that you will be able to slot in various resources into different recipes to achieve different results, but would not be based on percentage statistics. That the range of type/availability of resources would be large and random in placement. A spawn of iron for example may appear in one node, be depleted, disappear, and respawn on the other side of the map. That unique recipes could be gained from dismantling high end loot, and that some of the highest tier crafting would require drops from world bosses. No confirmation either way whether said drop  resources would be BOP or freely tradeable. We do have a Steven quote replying that resources would drop from  bosses and then you would be able to take them to a crafter to upgrade an item. Just no confirmation on item creation BOP resources so far. I am sure we will get more details once they actually decide and flesh out the crafting fully sometime next year between Alpha 0 and Alpha 1.
  • Yeah I know, I was just wondering if there would be any kind of experimentation in the crafting aspect :P 
  • I already got that, experimentation is neither RNG nor enchanting if that is what you meant. 
  • Only so many ways to skin a cat. You want to input stuff into a recipe to get an unknown recipe/blueprint. They have said that isn't going to be a mechanic. That way lies the madness of the beginnings of p2win. The whole input these rare resources for a possible chance at an upgrade is what has twisted the panties of all the Trion gamblers. I doubt you'll even catch a whiff of it here.
  • I think you're reading this wrong. I am not talking about Upgrading/Enchanting
    I am talking about experimenting with input values to find NEW unknown recipes.
    Ex: A new Potion recipe that you cannot buy or find anywhere but have to experiment to unlock/find. 
  • And I have been responding that there is no plan in place for that to happen. Like you described for an example. I want to make a healing potion. I have dials that I can crank different percentages of input on for the various ingredients, let's say 6 settings for heat, going to throw in 3 blueberries instead of 2 to overclock the recipe, and a teaspoon of camel salt, instead of a tablespoon that the slot calls for. And POOF! I discovered the new Salty Blueberry Levitation potion!!! Experimenting success.

    Now comes the hook. "Tired of inputting your very expensive blueberries in your experiments?" "Buy Mr. Gargleblasters experimental crafting station today. Guaranteed success rates! Only 19.99 in the store today."
  • It's a nice idea, and I'm not against it, although I wonder what your thoughts are on these two flaws:

    1. What about the game developers who are going to play the game as well? They're going to know the amounts because they coded it themselves. Either they're at a huge discovery advantage, or they agree to let the rest of the playerbase do the discovering and stay out of that field. Either way kinda sucks.

    2. If 'ingredients' and their amounts are static, then it will be provided on the Internet and those that use those guides will be at a massive advantage - the experimentation and hard work is completely obsolete. Of course, you don't have to look at a guide, but why reinvent the wheel?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    1. Can be solved by making Ingredients have Attributes and an Attribute Conflict System. Say one plant has a poison as well as healing attributes, if they do not add in somehting which can nullify the poison, the healing attribute won't come out properly enough for it to be a success. 
    However I do agree that it would kind of suck for them.

    2. I don't see the problem in that? Those who wants to share their research could do so if they wanted to. Those who wants to keep their research hidden, can just not share it, and they will be the only one who can craft it until someone else discovers the same recipe. 
    Can also make it so that the first person who discovers a recipe has a slight buff added to the recipe compared to the rest. 
    Like A potion that heals 100HP, the discoverer could have it be at 125HP etc

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Ziltch said:
    2. I don't see the problem in that? Those who wants to share their research could do so if they wanted to. Those who wants to keep their research hidden, can just not share it, and they will be the only one who can craft it until someone else discovers the same recipe. 
    Can also make it so that the first person who discovers a recipe has a slight buff added to the recipe compared to the rest. 
    Like A potion that heals 100HP, the discoverer could have it be at 125HP etc

    Warhammer Online had this as the actual basis of their crafting system for alchemy: add random reagents into the potion slots and hope for the best. It was frustrating and annoying and a complete disaster.

    Honestly, who wants to sit around and waste bags full of reagents either creating utter nonsense or 15 versions of the same thing. It takes what should be a fun concept and turns it into a chore. All that will happen is that 99.9% of people will simply look up an online repository so they don’t waste their time and resources. An entire game mechanic will be invalidated within weeks of release.

    A recipe system done right can be excellent, with the ability to hunt down rare recipes via clues throughout the game world. If you do your research, through visiting libraries, NPC profession masters and dungeons. From everything that has been said so far, I have faith that Intrepid will force crafters out into the world to search for reagents and recipes, with some being the result of long quest chains, some from deep dungeons and with different recipes/reagents available in different parts of the world. 

  • I am not talking about randomness thought, I am talking about a concrete system you have to experiment with to find out about.
    (When you succeed at an experiment, the recipe is unlocked in crafting menu so that you don't have to manually do everything again)

    As for who, decidated crafters, there's not really any MMOs out there that caters to dedicated crafters in any way. If people want to share their findings that's fine, but I doubt everyone will share their research, so won't really be invalidated imo. Who would want to share a recipe only they can make and sell, they'd earn a lot more if they were the only one selling the potion. 

    Yeah, sadly that's how the systems are in todays games. Get a recipe, get materials then click a button and wait a few seconds. It's kind of sad how the game tells you "People who came before you found out everything there is, so there is nothing new to explore for crafters."
    Which makes even less sense considering how people just came back to the world after millenums. And crafters won't need to search for reagents etc, that will go to the Processing artisans.
  • For gear, I think ESO's system of choosing Material, Style and Trait is excellent. You build up your knowledge and potential combinations by research and learning. This allows a really surprising amount of variety.

    It's not perfect but with a few additions and tweaks could be a really great basis for crafting in Ashes given the large number of potential race styles we will have.

    Recipe systems are ok, but a little limited and restrictive. I think that recipes are diametrically opposed to the pure experimentation proposed here. I get what you are going for but even with the game saving your successes I don't see this as a fulfilling or fun system for the majority of players.

    I guess that is what boils down to: what will suit the majority. The crafting system is never going to be all things to all players but I think an experimentation based system would be the furthest system from that goal.
  • Yeah I know it won't be a fulfilling fun system for most of the players, when crafting becomes actual work it won't be :P 
    I just personally think it would be fun and interesting.
    Although one could also make a hybrid system where one can chose auto or manual path, with manual having some slight benefits. But yeah, I know what you mean and I agree that most people would prob not like it
  • Ziltch said:
    2. I don't see the problem in that? Those who wants to share their research could do so if they wanted to. Those who wants to keep their research hidden, can just not share it, and they will be the only one who can craft it until someone else discovers the same recipe. 
    Can also make it so that the first person who discovers a recipe has a slight buff added to the recipe compared to the rest. 
    Like A potion that heals 100HP, the discoverer could have it be at 125HP etc
    That could work, although you may have underestimated the number of people who will be playing the game, and hence experimenting with recipes. I'd say about 95% of all recipes would be on the Internet within about 24 hours of the game's release.

    And as cool as a recipe system would be, it would only be enjoyed by a very small selection of people - those who decided to experiment at the beginning of the game. But what about a sort of dynamic recipe system? One that changes over time, so that it's possible to keep experimenting. Not sure how it would work, and a game's lore would probably have to represent this feature, but it would be consistently rewarding and draw players to keep accumulating their recipes.
  • Sigalov said:
    That could work, although you may have underestimated the number of people who will be playing the game, and hence experimenting with recipes. I'd say about 95% of all recipes would be on the Internet within about 24 hours of the game's release.

    And as cool as a recipe system would be, it would only be enjoyed by a very small selection of people - those who decided to experiment at the beginning of the game. But what about a sort of dynamic recipe system? One that changes over time, so that it's possible to keep experimenting. Not sure how it would work, and a game's lore would probably have to represent this feature, but it would be consistently rewarding and draw players to keep accumulating their recipes.
    If you make it too simple, then yeah. But not in 24 hours, since you cannot find all of the materials in game, or enough of then within 24 hours :P 

    And yeah I know it would only be enjoyable to a selection of people. Could ofc be fixed with a hybrid system where manual gives slight better result than automatic ofc, but can never really be made a system that fits everyone. 
    The Idea itself is to reward those who spend time and effort in a profession.
    But I do know that it won't work well in today's market xD
  • If everyone couldn't just google the answer to almost everything then yeah a system like this could be great.

    But Google knows all.
  • Wouldnt be able to google undiscovered recipes.
    And I can easily imagine large guilds supporting their crafters heavily if it means them getting an advantage when it comes to products
    (aka them being the only guild that can craft specific things)
    since not everyone will be sharing their results.
    But yeah, I know what you mean
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    In Overlord, there are references to Yggdrasil having a culture of secrecy over information. There was no one publishing guides about secret stuff, except often false information. People kept it to themselves, usually their guild. It made them more powerful to not reveal it to everyone.

    Such info even included how to unlock super specialization classes like Momonga's Eclipse class (which is where the skill "The Goal of All Life is Death" comes from). He probably found out by trying it, not following a guide. And likely didn't tell anyone not in his guild.

    I could see people selling the special recipe info for high sums, and given the high sums (and the potential for near monopoly because of it not being known), not making it public.

    Though note that it's secrecy about special info. Not info everyone will know after 3 seconds showing up in a city or dungeon. That info would be readily available.
  • Yeah, that's what I think would happen too. There is nothing to gain from sharing and a lot to gain from keeping info to oneself so in such a system.
  • In Overlord, there are references to Yggdrasil having a culture of secrecy over information. There was no one publishing guides about secret stuff, except often false information. People kept it to themselves, usually their guild. It made them more powerful to not reveal it to everyone.

    Such info even included how to unlock super specialization classes like Momonga's Eclipse class (which is where the skill "The Goal of All Life is Death" comes from). He probably found out by trying it, not following a guide. And likely didn't tell anyone not in his guild.

    I could see people selling the special recipe info for high sums, and given the high sums (and the potential for near monopoly because of it not being known), not making it public.

    Though note that it's secrecy about special info. Not info everyone will know after 3 seconds showing up in a city or dungeon. That info would be readily available.
    If this game was anything like Yggdrasil I would be over the moon so I can hope this happens 
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