Open World Dungeons vs Instanced Dungeons

An excellent thread in the Design forum about instances and dungeons got me thinking about Open World Dungeons vs Instancing, especially seeing that Alpha Zero will have open world ones.

I haven’t played a game that had Open World Dungeons so I am having a hard time getting my head around how they work without being completely ruined by other groups. Looking for some perspectives from people who’ve played these types of games and how it actually plays out in game, as opposed to on paper.

My problems are:

How do you prevent the boss mechanics from being completely invalidated by three groups just smashing the boss down all at once, potentially even getting in each other’s way?

How do you get to experience the whole instance if a group has just gone through and cleared everything so you are just running through an empty dungeon until you catch up to them?

What happens to other groups if AoE spells are flying all around the place? Does PvP get turned off?

What if you are right at the end and the boss is at 95% and another group comes through and kills you, then takes the boss kill and all your effort is for nothing?

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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    bump for interest.
  • Lazerou said:

    What if you are right at the end and the boss is at 95% and another group comes through and kills you, then takes the boss kill and all your effort is for nothing?

    Totally looking forward to wiping through other groups/guilds and stealing their things! If you want that boss kill, fighting for it is half the battle.
  • Open world dungeons are both fun and a pain in the butt at the same time. I would prefer open dungeons for general gear hoarding and such and only use instances in raids. MMORPGs are less and less a social events and more and more easy win loot pinatas. Not a fan of the latter. Open world dungeons force people to work together, and allow good players to be noticed and bad players noted. 
  • I think open world dungeons either need to be PvP based or of epic difficulty.  Otherwise it just becomes a run around from spawn to spawn grind-fest.  I am sick to death of MMO grind.  To me, everything should be a challenge, everything should have a point, and gaining skills, levels and abilities should just happen organically as you go along.  You should not have to grind 1000 of anything to gain or earn anything.  Grind should not be a word.
  • Hasil said:
    I think open world dungeons either need to be PvP based or of epic difficulty.
    As it is now, everything is pvp based. Open dungeons in such an environment always have a rush'n'run feeling to it. Darkness Falls anyone? Has been a blast and a pain at every visit as Mazikar put it. If you want to have your friendly dungeon run with a guild group or group of friends, you won't see it in a game with open dungeons in a full pvp world. Corruption will not hinder it, see Freshcuts post. It will happen.

    It would be good to have both, so people have the choice, if they are out to have the dungeon experience with a special kick or the 8 friends dungeon run, which can be great fun either.
  • Only games I have played with open world dungeons were faction based so the problem of AoE damaging your own side wasn't a problem. Not sure how they deal with that in a factionless game - but it's the same with pvp, can you get flagged if someone else runs through your AoE?

    It was a bit cheesy to have the dungeon itself open but the final boss be instanced. So what happened is our side piled up just before the instance line and just waited for the opposition to spend time killing trash, only to be killed by us prior to having a chance at the boss.

    I lasted about 10 minutes before I wanted to actually finish the dungeon and do the boss. So my group did, but others stayed there and denied the boss for more than three hours.

    I actually found it boring, others found it fun, but I bet the other side that wanted to do the dungeon, spent 20 minutes working their way to the end only to be killed and denied would not have enjoyed the experience.
  • Call me crazy, but I'd like to see both.
  • The definition of what a dungeon is for players who started MMOs with WoW or later has no resemblance to that of dungeons in earlier games. To reconcile both, we'd just have to say that open world dungeons present completely different gameplay.

    The thrill of the hunt -- to be the group that not only camps out for the boss spawn, but to potentially fight for the kill against other player groups. That makes the items gained there all the more rare and valuable. 

    Instanced boss fights have their place in certain games, but I don't know if Ashes should be one of them. They talk about raids, but I'm not convinced "raiding" is going to be a progression game like it is in WoW, so the "balance" of the encounters (re: instanced designs for X players) isn't going to be as critical.

    Don't think of open world dungeon bosses as controlled puzzles for X players... it's lawless chaos. In reality, they're really just another zone in the world, with perhaps some increased difficulty to drop better items.

    Now, what AoC will do with them? No idea!

  • Lazerou said:

    How do you prevent the boss mechanics from being completely invalidated by three groups just smashing the boss down all at once, potentially even getting in each other’s way?

    That's the difference in gameplay... and there are mechanics that make it more difficult with the more players are present (not scaling, but abilities... like the mushrooms on that one green dragon in WoW, as an example - if someone died, they spawned a mushroom which would then explode killing other players in range (or maybe giving a fast deadly DoT, I can't recall). So people just wandering in there could easily wipe the raid because of the density with so many players in a given area.
    Lazerou said:

    How do you get to experience the whole instance if a group has just gone through and cleared everything so you are just running through an empty dungeon until you catch up to them?

    That's another thing that's different, it's not an "instance" to experience in the same way you know dungeons if you base them on what WoW is. Sometimes, entire areas are going to be empty like any part of any open world zone if it was just cleared. But that's the charm of the gameplay... is what you want even down there and available while you are? Do you camp for it? Etc.
    Lazerou said:

    What happens to other groups if AoE spells are flying all around the place? Does PvP get turned off?

    It shouldn't, that's part of the chaos! Other players become your barrier as well... but remember, the boss is also attacking them.
    Lazerou said:

    What if you are right at the end and the boss is at 95% and another group comes through and kills you, then takes the boss kill and all your effort is for nothing?

    That is the very element of gameplay that can't be experienced with instanced content, and what makes this so important and unique in today's gamescape. Perhaps you assign some of your guild to be guard the room where you are fighting, to defend against incoming players trying to do just that? It adds a whole additional element!
  • I look forward to some chaos. I am all for danger in the world and having to think on my feet. My only worry is that some people, a lot actually, don't actually thrive on chaos, they don't like it, in fact they hate it and actively avoid it.

    I hope this all balances well because if the concept or implementation turn off a large enough part of the PvE crowd then the community suffers.

    I think the Alpha Zero is under NDA, but I am really looking forward to some feedback on the Open Access Dungeons they have implemented. 

    Darkness Falls from DAoC is always hailed as the way to do this brilliantly. That, though, was a faction based game. Maybe instead of Faction Locking they could have Alliance Locking. I think Guild Locking would be too restrictive.

    That to me is an interesting concept - but once again, it becomes restrictive as there will be many people not in an alliance that will ever do this so does this mean they can simply never experience this content? Maybe so, but is this a bad thing? It might spur some almighty battles and long-term rivalries - the life-blood of a PvX game.
  • Both are good, curious about the open world dungeon, they have a set respawn timer or resets daily.


  • instance dungeons - ARE YOU AFRAID TO PVP!?



    when you're the tank but an enemy rogue keeps stunning you~



  • I read the OP and here is my Expirence with open world dungeons. They can be extremely fun if set up right. It must be massive, with multiple entrances. They usually assend down so players usually start on top. PvP can happen in them and during a boss fight. Boss fights are basically world bosses.. giant sponge that soaks up damage that can one shot you and has random attack patterns, with hidden exploits for players to figure out.
  • I can make a picture of what I'm trying to get at when I get home but think of the hive from resident evil but there's like 10 different ways to get in it.
  • I think if we're talking raids then I'd go for instanced raids because if you're going to attract the PvE crowd then you're not going to keep them happy if they get ganked mid way through a 2 hour raid. Having said that, I'd be more in favour of open world dungeons generally, but I would advocate that said dungeon bosses are dynamic and that they aren't DPS races, and that they have the capability to wipe large groups of players if uncoordinated.  
  • They have to find a way to deincetivize zerging bosses. There is several ways of achieving that:
    Make bosses have absurd attacks once the combat strength is severely outnumbered Please no.
    Do not scale loot by party size: 40 people to beat a boss that drops 1 item that is marginally better than a cheap crafted one? Not worth it.
    Have a straight up lockout once too many people join maybe?
    Create challenges that require precise teamwork and/or individual performance. For me this seems like the best option, either be it mechanics that have punishing mechanics if not played precisely, for example timing based challenges, or simply movement based challenges on an individual basis, although this is probably quite hard to implement efficiently.

    If they find a good solution for the zerging that works for them AND the community, then I'm all out for open world dungeons. Of course raiding is a different topic, but I feel like they are less prone to the zerg risk, with such a high recommended group size.
  • Ruby437 said:

    Create challenges that require precise teamwork and/or individual performance. For me this seems like the best option, either be it mechanics that have punishing mechanics if not played precisely, for example timing based challenges, or simply movement based challenges on an individual basis, although this is probably quite hard to implement efficiently.

    My problem with this though, is that if there is more than one group engaging the boss at a time, this precise teamwork will not exist, as the groups will be working independently. So the poor performance from one group will affect the other, through no fault of their own. 

    Is this just a "deal with it" situation?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2017
    Bajjer said:

    My problem with this though, is that if there is more than one group engaging the boss at a time, this precise teamwork will not exist, as the groups will be working independently. So the poor performance from one group will affect the other, through no fault of their own. 

    Is this just a "deal with it" situation?

    PvP + auto flagging (like in sieges) in open dungeon areas.

    And your problematic situation changes to fun and challenging one, since different player groups will be hitting each other. Even if they try not to, they will (with AoE, with aimed attacks failing to be precise, by people from different parties dodging away from boss attacks and ending up in each others line of fire...).

    You must not look at open dungeons from a PvE perspective.

    The goal in open dungeons will be to eliminate other group first and then eliminate the boss (if you win the PvP part of combat).
  • Gothix said:
    Bajjer said:

    My problem with this though, is that if there is more than one group engaging the boss at a time, this precise teamwork will not exist, as the groups will be working independently. So the poor performance from one group will affect the other, through no fault of their own. 

    Is this just a "deal with it" situation?

    PvP + auto flagging (like in sieges) in open dungeon areas.

    And your problematic situation changes to fun and challenging one, since different player groups will be hitting each other. Even if they try not to, they will (with AoE, with aimed attacks failing to be precise, by people from different parties dodging away from boss attacks and ending up in each others line of fire...).

    You must not look at open dungeons from a PvE perspective.

    The goal in open dungeons will be to eliminate other group first and then eliminate the boss (if you win the PvP part of combat).

    For some. For others this will kill not just their characters but their play experience. I am not advocating for one way or the other (I enjoyed the system of Open World Dungeons in WHO, to an extent). I just want there to be a fun experience for the majority of players without degrading the experience for all.

    My problem with auto-flagging in dungeons, when this is not the case in the Open World, is that I can see it turn these areas into PvP havens. This is where the gank-squads will hang out, knowing they can attack anyone without the fear of corruption. 

    That’s awesome if you all you want is to PvP, but there is a large proportion of the base that actually wishes to do PvE. If they are prevented from doing so then their interest in the game will, rightly, wane. I definitely don’t want to see this happen. I want there to be danger in the world, but I also want all major playstyles to be accommodated.

    Apart from games pre-WoW, which is now 14 long years ago, who can provide an example of an Open World dungeon system that is fun?

    I’m not asking to be contentious. I too am really interested in this aspect of the game as it is one in which I have had a lot of fun in the past, but to be honest I had more fun in instanced dungeons (maybe just more experience to draw on, I don’t know). I can count on one hand the number of Open World dungeons I have been in, so I can’t contribute a lot of experienced-based information.

    I don’t want this to devolve into a PvP advocacy slagging match, like so many other threads, just looking for some actual discussion on a point, not huge hyperbolic statements on how things “should be” (insular) or how they “will be” (conjecture).

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2017
    I think the open world dungeons and instanced dungeons will more often that not be tailored for groups of 8. There will likely be some instanced dungeons that can be solo'd per IS's suggestion you could play the game solo but you would miss out on content.

    I think you should be flagged purple when you go into an open world dungeon, just like being close to a caravan. There will likely be gank squads/guilds that make little homes for themselves in those dungeons.

    As a player wanting to take on an Open World Dungeon, regardless of reason, you should plan to go in with a group.I think @Lethality nailed it with taking a back up squad to guard the boss while the group fights. I would potentially go one step further and bring an additional battalion to fight off the gank squads.

    In the end open world dungeons will be contested spaces that generate, more than likely, reasonably good loot. I think the only answer is to adapt!

    *I am not a fan of PvP, but I am looking forward to Open World Dungeons, at least once*

    As for Zerging, they are limiting fast travel, that's likely the best they can do.
  • I still think implenting a "king of the hill" type of zone for every possible mob spawn area in the dungeon is best.

    -Party comes into radius of the area
    -Establishes their claim by waiting out a timer
    -After timer ends, mobs appear to attack the party.
    -If other player come into the radius before timer ends, it is contested with a PvP battle
  • @Bajjer but some areas NEED TO be "PvP heavens", you can have whole world as protected zone.

    Some areas need to offer corruption as deterrence, but some areas need to be auto flagged.

    Open dungeons should be such areas (auto flagged) and If some players want pure PvE experience, then they can chose to go to instanced dungeons instead. Both options should exist.

    Sieges and caravans aren't enough as auto flagged situations because they are not permanent. They only occur at some time periods, and there should be areas in the world that offer auto flagging full time.

    Open world dungeons are ideal for this, specially since there is an alternative of instance dungeons for those that don't want to risk PvP.
  • I don't always agree with @Gothix, but when I do it is never about PvP.

    However, for instanced/open dungeons, I agree with Gothix.
  • I also agree with @Gothix in this case. Having open world dungeons flag people for pvp would be a balance for the fact that there will be instanced dungeons where it is impossible to pvp. Open world dungeons will probably contain a lot more groups pveing than pvping as their tends to be more pvers in mmorpgs, so they could, if they feel so inclined, work together to fight off the pvpers. Or if your guild contains both pvers and pvpers open world dungeons will allow them to work in unison with the pvp guildmates protected the pve guildmates. Because of these reasons, I fell that making open world dungeons automatically flag people for pvp would actually encourage more cooperation between players, which would fall in with Intrepid's goal for the game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2017
    The devs have already told us where auto-flagging will take place.
    Dungeons aren't on that list.
    There will be battlegrounds with auto-flagging.

    Most likely it's going to be attack non-combatants in dungeons and risk Corruption.
    Otherwise, work together.
    But, we will see what the devs actually do.
  • I had always assumed that apart from caravans and sieges, we would also have at least one entire zone that contained autoflagging – with a story about how there is something in this zone that the NPC factions all want and so it is a heavily contested area. 

    There would be different objectives and resources to collect (ala Alterac Valley or Warhammer RvR zones) and it would be a constant state of warfare, not just something that starts every 2 hours. I honestly don’t know why I assumed this, as I can’t find any quotes regarding a zone like that (wish fulfillment, maybe).

    So there would always be somewhere for the PvPers to go, even if they couldn’t find a caravan or siege at the time. PvE players could avoid it altogether if they wanted, but still be in danger in the world where corruption will hold the worst excesses of ganking/griefing in check.

    I was thinking of Open World Dungeons as more like a place where you could run into other players and PvP during your PvE, but it would not have autoflagging – for the simple reason of allowing two groups to work together if they wished, instead of PvPing. 

    I didn’t think that joining groups would work, because usually this turns a group into a raid and raids usually invalidate group content (could very well be different in Ashes though, as this is based on systems from other games). 

    I suppose you could have autoflagging and also have a mechanic for people to join forces if they wished, which would remove this flag while the groups are joined. I think that benefits everyone. It is just that a straight autoflagging, without an additional mechanic I feel would alienate the very people who are attracted to this type of content. 

    Narrowing their focus to only those fully instanced dungeons isn’t feasible as this only breeds discontent (unless there is a huge amount of choice). I’ll do any and all content, I don’t mind a little mix of PvP and PvE – I remember many a time in WoW when our instance runs were delayed by half an hour (or much more) due to PvP at the entrance/summoning stone and this was (almost) always fun. 

    If you res outside the instance and need to run back by yourself, then I think that mechanic alone would prevent zerging/camping. If you can res at graveyards throughout the instance – not so much.

    Additionally, I feel like the dungeons must not be linear, and must have multiple entrances. I don’t often state things so categorically but I just can’t see open world dungeons as anything but a breeding ground for failure if they are single entrance linear bottlenecks.

  • There will be arenas and battlegrounds.
    You can PvP in dungeons if you want - even if it is unlikely to entail auto-flagging.
  • I was not aware of battlegrounds. I think pulling the auto-flagging from dungeons to battlegrounds would be a nice balance. If OW dungeons do not auto-flag I think there would be lot's of accidental PvP'ing when really everyone just wanted to dungeon crawl. Would still be an interesting mechanic!

    If OW Dungeons are auto-flag areas I would be okay with that too. I do see the argument about that limiting the player base that would participate though. IS, I will paraphrase, did indicate that if you wanted the full experience there will be risk!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2017
    @Dygz do you realize that players spells will not be limited to tab target as we will not use pure tab target system.

    So even if you wish to hit only the boss, in the chaos happening with more groups attacking him you WILL be hitting other players that aren't in your party. People will be dodging around avoiding boss attacks, getting in your line of fire, and you WILL be hiting other players not in your party.

    And if these players will be green you WILL be getting corruption upon their deaths, even if you didn't wish to hurt any player.

    This is one of the reasons why open dungeons need to be auto flagged area. And then if you wish to TRY to work with other party you still can attempt this. Try to position yourself and move well and try not to hit each other, but WHEN YOU DO (and you often will, even kill other players even if non intentionally) you will not get corrupted.

    Now imagine progression in open world dungeons with people hitting each other, corruption stacking up due to people dying in lines of fire, and everyone ending up losing bunch of gear and exiting the dungeon as "hardcore bandits", purely because it's impossible to hit only the boss.

    Would this be fun for you? :)


    Dygz said:
    The devs have already told us where auto-flagging will take place.
    Dungeons aren't on that list.

    Also devs haven't told us everything that game will hold in itself. And them telling us only about auto flagging in sieges in caravans does not mean there will not be auto flagging anywhere else.



  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2017
    You gain Corruption if you kill a green player; not simply for hurting them, so it would behoove you to make sure you work together and make sure they stay alive if you don't want to gain Corruption but...
    You raise an interesting point about collateral damage...

    I spoke with Jeff B during PAX and mentioned how we won't have to group while defending a town during Monster Coin Events. When a village or town is attacked you simply defend the town. You don't worry about any need to join a group or raid... though you can if you want to.
    And Jeff agreed.

    I am quite sure that players will not be flagging simply from indirect friendly fire while fighting the same mobs outside of a group.
    Seems easy enough for non-combatants to only be harmed by tab-target abilities - at the very least. Such that you cannot accidentally initiate combat with a non-combatant.
    But, it's a great question to ask for confirmation.

    The devs would have already listed auto-flagging during open world dungeons if that was part of the game design.
    But, feel free to believe whatever you want - and we will see at launch whether I'm right.
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