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Link-able achievements, yay or nay?
ArchivedUser
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(This is pulled out from another thread where I originally posted it, and now with a poll)
If DPS meters will not be in game then I would like to see instanced solo challenges based on your role, that grant you link-able achievement.
1. You would speak to NPC then choose which type of challenge you want (DPS-Tank-Heal-Support) and for which content type.
2. NPC would then port you to solo instance where your skills would be tested, and if your performance is sufficient for chosen content.
3. If you pass the challenge you would get Achievement (for example) "TANK certified for Dungeon of B difficulty".
4. You could link your achievements to others.
This way it wouldn't matter if your DPS is 5000 or 9000. If you can link "DPS certified for Dungeon of B difficulty" it would mean you have more DPS then this type of dungeon requires, and other could see that you have both sufficient gear and skills, just by linking you achievement.
This way group leader would still be able to find people that satisfy minimum requirements, BUT wouldn't be able to favor higher geared over lower geared players as long as both players satisfy minimum requirement for searched content (can link achievement).
And certificate would be show for combination of both your gear and skills combined.
Group leaders that don't care about people having achievements still can invite everyone regardless of if they have achievement or not.
Would you like such link-able achievements?
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Achievement would only verify that you satisfy minimum requirements to be viable for dungeon (skills + gear).
Are you such scrub that you wouldn't fit even minimum requirements?
You could potentially finish the dungeon using tactics and skill. This method would in no way allow someone to say your "DPS must be at least ____ because you are certified for a Rank ___ dungeon."
If there were multiple dungeons set up like this throughout the world, and the certificate didn't indicate which one you completed, there's not even a good argument for "Well I couldn't complete that dungeon until I was level ___."
I am against other players being able to examine my character, especially just for DPS purposes. This idea I can support.
I understand how frustrating it must be, when you want to find a group for a dungeon quickly and end up with a couple of noobs like myself who use brains whilst clearing dungeons rather than just spamming 1,2,3,2,1 etc.
Once again you'd find players prevented from accessing groups because of failing to hit an arbitrary mark...dps does not and has never meant skill
Say Im qualified to clear B dungeons, because my dps is high enough...but I trigger every trap and draw aggro, I dont listen to orders and release mobs from cc etc....
Ashes is all about not finding the quickest route, it's about the best route and getting there in the end...
If youre concerned with running through a whole dungeon, to find that they cant take on the final boss, you might as well have a boss at the start, loot free, so you can see in the first few minutes how well people actually play.
In practice if the game gets any popular and difficult, someone will definitely go through the effort to sniff traffic packages and create a 3rd party dps meter. It doesnt matter if you want that, it doesnt matter if steven wants that.
So the real question is:
do you want
A: A indepth dps meter that could also record healing/support skills and potentialy has many customizable options, or
B: A plain dps meter that shows dps and nothing else because the effort for other stuff is too big.
A happens if they support dmg meters, and B happens if they dont.
While A still has many negative sides, B is even worse because it kinda has all negative sides of A and also wouldn't allow to show the exact use of support classes which would increase the focus on pure highest dps even more.
In case of A dmg meters would be more common, but the small group of responsible group leaders that actualy care for dps requirements will have the meter in case of A and B pretty much equally. Thus the common player in B doesnt have the dmg meter
and conversations like 'he doesn't even know his dps, must be bad, no inv' will happen more frequently.
So the most reasonable choice is yes we want dps meters, even if we dont.
I wonder who started first giving opinions about who?
You could have stated opinion about subject of the poll and not provide what you think of me. Yet you started...
So please. I was just responding to you.
If you can solo a dungeon, good for you, no need to brag about it.
Lets say dungeon requires 4000 DPS and some movement skills from DPS-ers as minimum requirement for raid to not fail miserably. Bare minimum below which it would be waste of time.
Solo testing room would check if you can move around avoiding circles and in same time hit dummy for over 4000 DPS, and you would get certified.
There would be no way to tell who had 4100 DPS and who had 99999999 DPS, they would both have exact same certificate if they succeed the challenge.
(Whoever couldn't make even minimum 4000, or would die in aoe, just means he wouldn't stand a chance in dungeon, and if people like that join in, whole raid would just be wasting time.)
So this is nothing to do with bragging. I wish people would read with understanding and not just see "the name of who posted the poll" and automatically start writing against the idea (with totally incorrect arguments) without even understanding it.
Ah yes @Megs since solo testing room would check both DPS (for dpsers) and your movement skills (and possibly some other skills) the following wouldn't happen.
Megs said:
I didn't specify how to do challenges for other roles, but good example in practice is original The Secret World... the guardian test before being allowed into Nightmare dungeons. (yes the game didn't allow you to join NM dungeons until you passed skill / performance test).
Healer had dummies he had to heal sufficiently, and dispel, while in same time avoiding ground AoE.
Tank had dummy that meassured his threat, and other dummy that shoot at him to test his mitigation, all while tank also had to avoid ground aoe too.
DPS shot at dummies while avoiding ground aoe, and also had to occasionally purge dummy when dummy got enraged to not get one shoted.
Something like this I would advice for Ashes.
Again, this certificate would only be awarded if you pass minimum requirements test. And that would be all the certificate says.
But it still seems a lot of effort \ work for something that I've never seen as being a big enough problem to warrent the fix, but as long as all it would be would be simple requirements.... why not.
As long as you dont end up with a low level dungeon requiring high level certification...
I can tell you a story about a member in one of my guilds, that got in by his actions in group play before he got invited! Non of us never heart him speak on vent! so little that we knew he didn't speak any English, he was however very good in playing his support class you never had to tell him anything! We only found out he didn't speak English when we were prepping to take down a world boss! In this particular game there was a 2 hour long pre quest you needed to follow to be allowed in the room of the boss! obviously he didn't understand anything about this pre quest. It took me at least a very painstakingly 30 minutes to explain him what he had to do, it took me another 4.5 hours to run him through the gauntlet of the pre quest! by the end of those 4.5 hours he learned some basic words in English to make him self understandable! And boy were we happy that he was there at the boss to save our behinds 2 times in the 1.5 hours it took to take the boss down!!
So what's the moral of the story you ask?! Well simple that sometimes you need to invest a little time to get a lot back later! people that are shortsighted and only see fast progress IMO generally didn't get the M in MMO! And that's just the thing that Steven tries to bring back in this game as well! So .... my answer is and will forever be NO to such systems that allow any measurement of the "skill" of a player! It would ruin the game or at least a very big part of the social aspect of it!
Want an easy way to find out if the person in your party suits your play stile? Pay attention on your group and don't always only look at your self! I am sure you would learn a lot! ( no not about the game or their mechanics no, that's not what i mean )
So if you wish do dungeon with people in your guild you wish to invest in "to get back more later" you CAN.
Certificates would be OPTIONAL, and would help those that want.
Why you would deny groups that don't want to waste time without even a chance at completing a dungeon, their way of group forming?
You can form your own group however you can.
The problem here is that you, and people like you only think on yourself, and your own play style, and don't care about other.
I on the other hand wish that everyone can play how he wants, this is why I didn't suggest this challenge to be MANDATORY before you could even enter a dungeon. I just suggested that it be optional, and link-able for people that want to use it.
AND I ONLY ASKED CERTIFICATE COVER BARE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT, people barely able to do this certificate would still be noobs so to speak. But certificate would show they have the very minimum chance to do the dungeon.
But even that is not good for you, you wish to force "your play style" fully. You wish force everyone to waste their time inviting people that don't even cover the bare minimum requirements needed to even have a chance at completing a dungeon. I have no words...
Think about this. If you are able to understand what I'm saying.
I love achievements so I'm always on board for them.
Those "bad" Elitist will always find a way to kick u out of their group.
WauW Gothix just Wauw!!!
I think i was clear on the fact that no matter what you say otherwise, you wouldn't sway me in another direction! That said i am actually somewhat surprised you openly disregard any of my concerns, and try to push your own stance on the fact! Which is fine, .... but why ask people their opinion then if you don't want to hear any other then that close to your own?! Sorry to say so but that bothers me some what.
Now to stipulate your points that you had concerns with in my original reply!
- No i do not believe that any form of being able to measure some ones skill will be "free/optional" to use! quite common if a system like that is introduced people will feel "forced" to use it! Not very long after it won’t only be used for dungeons but for invites to other events as well! Be it PvP, sieges, grind party's or yes .... even guilds! Because hé guess what!! .... there is a way to measure some ones skill ( at which it will automatically become the standard )
- Like others pointed out, elitist guilds will always find a third party way in measuring a players skill! I don't care about that ... or those top guilds using it! ( this would be a very small % to begin with ) As long as it isn't in game, ruining a fast part of the social aspect of the game!
- Also let’s talk about that you say i only think about myself! ..... well, .... can i just say this "haha, ... hahahha, ..... HAHAHAHA, ...... WHawhawhAHAHAHA!!!!!" ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! i mean never mind the rest! i even gave you an example story with how ... ( yes i know ) .... How i perceived games without a system like you mentioned! trust me i played many games with a system like you are imposing, including the number 1 theme park MMO WoW! The only thing i did was giving my opinion about a question YOU put out their!! And even made a poll about?! Then you go ahead with calling me short sighted and narrow minded, sorry to say so ... but that's like "the pot calling the kettle black" Last but not least on this piece and i quote:
"AND I ONLY ASKED CERTIFICATE COVER BARE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT, people barely able to do this certificate would still be noobs so to speak. But certificate would show they have the very minimum chance to do the dungeon."
Which shows exactly at what part of the fence you are ( calling people noobs on forehand ), and proofs to me what i said above!
- Last i want to point at something that has nothing to do about our comments but is relevant non the less in this whole debacle. A system like you mentioned is fine when it comes to a THEME PARK MMO! i even would agree with you to some degree on your points! However like i already explained in an SANDBOX MMO I only see an system like this being miss used in what already is the wrong setting, as mentioned, by measure if a player is 'good' enough for a guild, a simple grind party ... or other public big happenings in this fast open world! Which is just the wrong setting IMHO ( note my opinion the one you originally asked when you opened this poll )
I am sure gothix that we can find each other on enough common ground and how we would like certain systems! Sadly this is not one of them! I do care enough though to type this all, and please ask of you to not take things to personal! Because, ..... it wasn't personal until you made it that way! So i hope we can find a common ground here to agree to disagree with each other and let that be that!
Regards Boes/Belmos
Ps. Dont worry if and when you do reply on this, and openly want to go in to a flamewar ... I won’t respond on it anymore! I am happy to discuss in other topics on other topics or even to some degree in this one when I see a valid point being made! I just don’t want to go in that all out war stance on this topic since clearly we are very far apart on the issue and will never come to a compromise
Actually, military INSURES that soldiers have minimum needed requirements by CERTIFYING them during the training, and only when they know how to handle themselves they are sent out to field.
Military does not just hand weapons to everyone and then sends such team to the field, it would be a suicide mission.
Would you, as army veteran, while preparing team to go engage the enemies strategic location let any random join?
So please do not speak nonsense, you contradict yourself here.
So do explorers need army certification to walk around their country freely?
I've played many games and there is always a way snobs will screw over the average player. Gearscore, achievements, copies of parsings, specific builds only, specific gear only, etc. So this will happen no matter what, at least this way the tool will be minimum dps, heal, tanking duration that shows you understand your class, instead of some arbitrary idea like a gearscore with someone using pvp gear, achievements they were carried through, or just copy/pasting builds/talents with no idea how to play your class.
Second: the problem here is that achieve link and DPS meter, can be seen in positive and negative lights. IT has both strong points against and for the function. I'm agreeing with @Loyheta "It is the people you have to worry about". There will always be people using the game functions to make them better than other players.... of course there are people like that, because it's a game.
Third: DPS meter is there to help see that you are improving and that you understand the classes (yeah your movement is also important and can't be calculated in DPS numbers, but movement gives you more time to do more DPS if you moves right). It is also there to help a team leader to see what part of the team is lacking and where to improve or use more energy on. That's why it was build. If people do it to call other people noobs or have a reason to kick somebody out, then its not the function that needs a slap but the person that are a scrub and moron. As a guild leader myself, I like to see where I can help my teammates in every way. That's why i have set the pull answer to DPS meter as personal use, so the teammates can come to me and show me states if they want. That gives me as a leader a chance to help. DPS meter is a important factor (but don't have to be a game function in the game to make it fun to play or is a must to have in a game for me) to test yourself, but maybe it can handle a bit smartere than other MMORPG's are using it now.
Achievement link have i set to share with people, but in a way that only you can see them and only you that can choose to share it
So as a conclusion, it's not about the game function, but about what kind of person you choose to be in the game. My guild will always welcome all kind of people with different skills, because we believe that all can improve with help from teammates.
eeeeehhhm can't remember what els to say, because drop my glass of water and then all thoughts vanished riiiip
They don't "need", that's why I call it personal and optional. And only the person that chooses, could use it. Whoever wouldn't want to doesn't have to.
Same like personal parsers.
I myself would enjoy group parsers too, to be able to compare myself to others, but I'm willing to not argue for those since some people see them in negative light. I am a person of compromise.
I would hope others would also be able to compromise, and argue for personal parsers. But sadly not many people are willing to compromise, and just want to push their own to the end without willing to move an inch.
We are not compromising if it is not for the greater good. Everyone should be able to enjoy content and PuGs shouldn't be limited to "show your tag or gtfo".
If you want an easy mode group that is overkill for the dungeon you are attempting, invite your friends that you know have good gear and are capable.
I know that Ashes of Creation are/going to be a different MMORPG game and that's why I backed the game, because i'm kinda sick of the other MMORPG like WoW because it's so unsocial and all things are given to you and people are A-holes when they compere to each other. We all have that experience and we all have that thought "Have they forgotten that at some point they also was new to this dungeon, so why not give me a chance" and I also hate that. But at the same time, Ashes are also build on exploration, so how are we going to reward those using time to explore every thing in AoC world? That's why i said in my text, we need to find something in between and not totally shut it down. Maybe we can get a badges or something els. Like a said in my other comment "But of course there are many Youtube videos online to help you see the raids and dungeons, so no problem if it's not a function in the game either.", there are so many other things you can show that you know a dungeon, so maybe achievement to be linked to others are not needed anymore, but give energy on how to reward other players exploration
And I hope the DPS meters are not going to be a shared form, but a form you can choose to share if you want because it's personal. But then again, I don't need it, but it can be a useful tool for me as player if it's there.
Maybe the tools makes it in another light because Ashes of Creation is another generation of MMORPG's who knows. That's why i will not totally push it away, just because of bad experiences. Remember, we are here, all of us to see MMORPG's raise again (of course we have different opinions on what a great MMORPG is) and to make a great MMORPG we need to give some things a different look in what situation the tools are going to be used in. I'm in between because there is always good points and bad points on every function in the game. Don't need them, but at the same time I can give it a good use if they were there haha