Combat Concerns/Suggestions
I NEVER post on or read forums so forgive my forum etiquette and the length of this post.
I took a lot of time and put a lot of thought into this message and I only hope it finds its way to someone on the development team.
Just this evening (10/24/2017) I'd stumbled across your new and upcoming Ashes of Creation MMO. I watched a few videos on it, read on your website and did some general research before deciding I wanted to reach out and see if I could reach anyone.
I did so for two main reasons:
1) The number of highly polished MMOs can be counted on one hand (i.e. FFXIV, WoW, GW2 [maybe ESO and Black Desert Online])
2) I've played every MMO on the market, got bored with them, and have since been looking for something else to throw my money at.
From what I've seen and heard so far, your game sounds extremely intriguing and if your team can deliver on the promises made I think you'll have an outstanding product. I really hope your game succeeds.
I’ve played Guild Wars 2 since launch in 2012 and it was worth dumping a lot of my money into, which I’m sure the developers appreciated. They’ve come to a point, though, where they aren’t providing anything their player’s really want to buy. So many players are waving money over their heads and the developers aren’t making the most of their product or the opportunity.
Looking at footage of your game, I’m compelled to give you both high praise for what you already have and constructive criticism which I’m sure is never wasted. Praise is wonderful, but I’d rather not waste your time with it. Instead, I’d like to humbly offer the opinions and suggestions of someone who has no software development or game design background (only decades of experience enjoying/not enjoying different MMOs).
Combat Animation
This is something I didn’t see any problem with when I watched any of the pre-alpha footage, but I thought it helpful to note it. The flashiness of combat animation is something most players can appreciate. In FFXIV, for example, the animations are very fancy and artistically designed to the point where people standing in towns would occasionally spam their skills to show them off. It’s something small that really helps to polish the “feel”. Guild Wars 1, on the other hand, had rather mediocre animations (spell effects, etc.) than weren’t much fun to look at.
Combat Style
It looks like your featured combat style utilizes a timing system in which the player must line a cursor within a section of the bar in order to achieve maximum potency of their ability. It’s a novel idea but one that I think will be a mistake overall. A large appeal of playing an MMO is escapism, where a player can forget the troubles of their daily lives and immerse themselves in something less stressful for a few hours. A huge part of immersing the player is drawing them into the screen by utilizing certain design elements (I come from a graphic design and consumer appeal background). Some of the more important elements are layering objects to create not only depth, but a guide which draws consumer’s (players) eyes where you want them to go. From what I’d seen, your game’s landscape’s designs do a fantastic job of that. It’s very well done! However, I feel that all the effort to draw the player into the environment and into the game is lost by requiring the player to fixate their view on a small moving bar in the bottom-center of the screen to perform their attacks. I think most people prefer to fix their view on the target of their attacks, even if only to watch the lovely animation of their fireball or arrow striking the enemy. GW2 did, in my opinion, the best job with the feel of MMO combat of any game I’d ever played. They made it fluid, easy to target and un-target and made each of the abilities require a simple hotkey press or mouse click. Personally speaking, I would not be interested in the game with its current “watch the bar” combat mechanic.
Hotkey vs. Clicking
I know Ashes of Creation is said to feature a hybrid traditional/action style of combat and I wanted to address the interaction between the player and their character. Obviously, the goal is to make the player feel a strong connection between themselves and the on-screen avatar they’re controlling. Again, I have to note GW2’s approach to combat. They did it pretty well. Some players want to play a quicker more reflexive play style (with action-style combat) and for those players it’s easy enough to use WASD and hit hotkeys. Other players want a slower more strategic and deliberate play style and prefer to mouse target and click their skills. To attract the largest portion of players to your game, please be sure to optimize the combat to cater to both hotkey users and players who click.
In essence, my suggestions are aimed at the combat provided by the game. That’s obviously the main draw of any MMO. Its fluidity, accessibility and weight are crucial to turning players who are trying the game out for a few hours to see if they like it into long-standing continued subscribers.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post!
Comments
Intrepid is aware of people disliking the timing minigame and combat is still being worked on.
They tried something new, they heard our opinions and are working on based on that.
I'm actually quite pleased that the responses provided were mature and actually helpful. That's not something I can say for the communities of several MMOs I'd played. Only two responses, but I think they speak to the potential quality of the community that will be picking this game up when it's released.
I appreciate the information provided by people who have obviously been following the development long than I have. Most times it's simpler to ask a question or make a statement based on what little research you've done rather than continue doing research for several more hours to answer all of your questions and address all of your concerns.
To add a little more to the discussion, for discussion sake, I'll address a few other concerns/suggestions I'd had that people may/may not already have the answers to.
Role-based Combat
It certainly looks like Ashes of Creation will rely on role-based combat for their group PVE content. I think roles (classes aside) work best in an MMO because they require players to work together as individual parts of a team rather than each player attempting to "be the hero" of the group. FFXIV, Wildstar and WoW, for example, areheavily based on class/role combinations. On the other hand, GW2 allows a full group of any combination of builds to complete content. I don't think this is the most beneficial way to design content as having such freedom (dodge-rolling, etc.) enables characters utilizing high damage builds to be just as effective as tanky builds at surviving. In GW2, specifically, if you're using a high defense build in group PVE content you're seen as a gimped version of your class. The raids even require that everyone play DPS builds and no one play tanky builds.
I didn't see any source material on this specific subject so I'll just say that I'm hoping AoC will require players of several different builds in order to complete group content. I believe that will be the case, however.
Build Customization
From the videos I'd seen and the information provided regarding the class/subclass system, I'm extremely optimistic about the amount of customization allowed in the play style. Many players (myself included) draw a significant sense of enjoyment and accomplishment by creating something unique (as unique as a game allows) that actually works. Some players want to search for pre-made "tried and tested" builds online and are fine with using something very "meta". Personally, I've always enjoyed taking the class that's seen as the least useful and trying to use it in a unique way that makes people rethink their opinions on it. Challenging the status quo is fun! Customizing your class via it's build is akin to putting together an R/C race car and seeing how well it performs on a little dirt track, tweaking it and testing it again.
As I'd said, I think this is something AoC will really implement well. My suggestion would be to ensure that there's synergy to be found in every combination of the classes. In some games being a Warrior/Sorcerer is just being a gimped warrior who can cast some really crappy spells. Using the same example, I'd like to see something like a Warrior/Sorceror who (for example) would play as a warrior who utilizes some type of enfeebling magic to lower defenses (etc.) augmenting their natural warrior damage.
I suppose that's just my long-winded way of saying that I hope the class system will be designed so that are no "dumb choices".
The Current Combat Timing Bar
I'd mentioned my thoughts on the current (if only placeholder) combat timing bar in use now. I can appreciate the development team's goal of introducing something fresh and unique, however I think it should be implemented in a way that doesn't detract from the amazing amount of work that went into the surrounding environment.
I'm certainly no designer or programmer, but I'd like to offer up at least one personal suggestion. Firstly, if you're wanting to introduce a timing aspect to the combat, I think it should be based on a cue that's noticeable regardless of whether you're looking at yourself, the enemy or the surrounding environment. Also, easily able to be capitalized on whether you're hotkeying or clicking your abilities.
For a timing based system I might suggest something along the lines of a "vulnerability window". Perhaps certain skills an enemy performs would leave them vulnerable to certain player attacks and at other times resistant or even immune to other player attacks.
My first example would be:
The troll uses a heavy hammer smash attack that leaves him, for a few brief moments, in a vulnerable position as far as having to lift his hammer back up from the smashed ground. During this brief moment, he would glow a faint color indicating that he's vulnerable. Perhaps then the different skills on a player's bar would illuminate with different colored borders, indicating their effectiveness during that moment.
Your ranger would have ranged bow abilities which are now bordered in a green glow, indicating that the target is now very susceptible to those specific skills. At the same time, certain melee skills may be illuminated in blue indicating that they're now somewhat more effective (not as effective as green, for instance).
My second example would be:
The troll uses enters a guarded stance, using his hammer as a means of shielding himself. Your ranger's melee skills may now be illuminated in gray or red, indicating that they're either worthless for the time being or very ineffective. Though, magical type attacks or certain skills that specifically state that they can't be blocked or aren't affected by this guarded stance would remain borderless.
In this system you would have an easily learned and recognizable series of colors players look for when attempting to perform reflexive and highly skilled attacks. Certain player skills may even place the target in such a vulnerable state, initiating a brief moment of skill-based ability usage.
I think it would be a non-intrusive way of implementing a timing-based combat system since not only would ability's borders glow, but the enemy itself would show some type of visual cue on their model. These combined visual cues would make it easy for players to notice that the enemy was in a state of vulnerability/guard/immunity to different specific skill types through even peripheral vision. Players could choose to fight very casually (not performing optimally), not having to worry too much about visual cues, when they're logged in at 4am because they can't sleep. They could also choose to maximize the output of their character by making the most of the colored system. Even while putting a lot of effort into playing, I think with this system players could be looking around the screen, watching another player walk up to join in the fight, glancing at their chat box, etc. and still be able to notice that the enemy was giving off a certain visual glow or cue and/or notice that certain abilities on their bars are glowing different colors (perhaps only for a second or two at a time).
Using completely arbitrary numbers and colors just off the top of my head I would suggest a colored system along the lines of:
Skills bordered in:
Blue - 25% increased damage or effectiveness.
Green - 15% increased damage or effectiveness.
No Border - Regular damage or effectiveness.
Yellow - 15% reduced damage or effectiveness.
Red - 25% reduced damage or effectiveness.
Gray - 0% damage or effectiveness.
I hope I was able to offer some useful suggestions at best and perhaps some interesting reading at worst. I don't assume to have any better suggestions than anyone else might have, but rather hope that mine might spark discussion among others which would make it way to a dev's eyes.
I really wish the best for this game and would love throwing money at it.
Thanks for taking the time to read!
I don't want to have to time my basic melee attacks, but reward that timing on mining nodes or farming herbs with greater yields. Then it will be more interactive at least.
After a discussion about the game and how it relates to so many other games out there that employ all sorts of mechanics for combat, I must say that my favourite has always been the one used in Final Fantasy XII. The idea that your character can automatically react to mobs based on their affixes and the way you designed him to behave that way, was always the best combat system in my opinion, though not followed or implemented by many.
The system still allowed the user to intervene at any given point, but gave the user the ability to become immersed in the combat and watching from a distance as the combat progressed. It took a lot of strategy to plan the reactions of your party, based on factors like timing and mana and monster affixes, and the occasional user input to rescue his party or character was always a good way to plan for adjustments during the next battle. It was not as high tempo as a million buttons to combo with, but it still kept the player's attention on the game and on combat.
I feel that the slider bar is a good idea in principal, but the fact that it would become the focus of combat is definitely an issue.
All that said, I can't wait for Ashes!
I know it was said above, but I'm hoping for some good combos. Not enough games use combos, or use them well. So here's to hoping that works out.
On a separate (though loosely related) note, I'd like to see some diversity. By that I mean, multiple skills/combos doing similar damage/healing/control. I'm tired of games where there's basically one rotation for a given situation that gets used over and over and over again. I want some variety without sacrificing my contribution.
What is aimed for: Higher skill gameplay regard combos ect.
How can we achieve this? Here lies the question, because there are options out there that have already be used such as one spell unlocks another, or you do a bunch of attacks to build up a resource, or you get a random proc off a previous attack. I honestly can't give a better idea at this time. I have played with both types and see the benefits to each.
And I honestly think that maybe a way to get around this would to be, make the skill shot bar remain in the same location every time?? Then it turns into a rote memory thing, is that what we are looking for? Not quite sure...
My overall favorite approach to all this is not building a resource, but rather, having several skills you are required to do first to "unlock" or "open" the combo ability you want to use. Maybe in order to do a huge fireball, you need to buff yourself with an empowered cast, and then place a targeting spell on the enemy?