I would hope stumbling upon some of these open world dungeons would make it less likely to have too many groups there at the same time, plus with some instances disappearing and new ones spawning elsewhere (unless I misunderstood the explanation on zones changing, which is totally possible) this won't be too common. However, can't people that decide to dungeon create a two team setting? One group to handle the boss, the other to assist with trash pulls and step in if pvp from another group becomes an issue? I would hope people would go with safety in numbers when entering a place full of dangerous mobs. o.o
I personally do like the open world concept for bosses. I'm hoping the social mechanics of this game will bring back the type of society I was used to back on classic/TBC WoW...which was, two people discovering a rare mob too strong to take down alone so they form a party to take it down and share the spoils. Instead of immediate hostility (unless of course, that is what your character is about, you naughty little outlaws, you~) and chomping at the bit for that mob that's..probably going to eat you for breakfast on your own or ends up having crap loot.
Having to weigh your options comes into play both individually and as a group. Which is what I hope to start seeing. Do you have enough guildies online to do the dungeon right now? How long will it take them to arrive? Do you need another tank? What about healers? These other players are right there and waiting, maybe we can convince them to join us? (Charisma \o/) Or is this going to turn into an unexpected brawl because *gasps* they're a rival guild! Dun dun duuuuuun! (You know that bard was totally giving you the lazy eye~! He goes first!)
The unexpected turn of events is what I'm personally looking for in my game play. Keeps it fresh. But I might be on the lonely island with these thoughts. ;-;
And I just learned what a **** is...it's not a candy. x.x
To have a really challenging PvE dungeons requires you 100% focus on the PvE challenge. If you have to worry about PvP players, then you have to keep something back. Keep something in reserve just in case. And you dont have to be a particular good player to wait until a team has damaged all their armour, exhausted all their resources and at the verge of defeat in a really challenging dungeon to simply pop your head around the corner and wipe them. I see it as no different to the kind of player that spawn camp new players for the easy kills. So not having some kind of protection from sabotage by others, means you have to lower the content difficulty to compensate for that. You destroy the PvE challenge in favour of adding a possible PvP aspect. Perhaps we have been molliecoddled and you should always expect the unexpected, but then you cant have finely balanced, tailor made difficulty.
If dungeons are openworld, you cant have a finely tuned tailor made experience because dugeons are rarely if ever designed to be balanced against 1-100 players etc. So all you get is people massing up to make the content easier (by coincidence or intent does not matter). They arent doing the content for the challenge at that point, they are simply doing it for the completion reward. They are just on a tour to collect shinies without any effort required. If you take away the challenge from the event, is it really that fun ? Perhaps the cash shop generation means it is more important to collect shinies than do content and paying makes that even easier.
For me I see both openworld and instanced as not only necessary but essential. Instances allow groups to face tightly honed challenges that enable the group to build ever more intimate combat bonds over time. They build empathy between each other that enables them to act as one. Like a group of instruments in musical symphony.
But people can not form these groups if there is no mechanism to first meet and greet each other and seek out compatible soul mates. Study how another plays and how they act and react with the players around them. Enable loose bonds to prod and poke others abilities to see if they will make a good team member. This is where open world gameplay and teamwork is critical. It is like meeting someone out at a party or down the pub, before you hit it off with someone and agree to embark upon a more personal adventure of sorts. After all, you dont just jump straight into bed with someone....you get to know them first (or use the cash shop).
That aside, we do need a PvP equivalent of a finely tuned PvE dungeon, which is what Arenas essentially are.
I would also like to see 1-2, 2-4, 4-8, 8-16 , 16-32 man dungeons that scale between those fixes ranges. It gives something for people ot do when no guildies are available. It naturally lets sub groups group up into larger groups in a consistent and simple way without breaking up existing bonds. It gives a challenge for people who feel OP in some content.
16 hardcore would find the 16-32 Damn hard. 32 casuals would find the 16-32 Tolerable/Acceptable.
I'm a bit confused. I thought this wasn't about whether or not to have instanced dungeons or open world dungeons. Aren't we getting both? Perhaps, I should have been more specific.
I mean in regards to basically 'instancing' an open world dungeon at the boss by blocking others from entering the fight.
If you go on a group exploration and find a dungeon you want to explore now rather than later, it would seem reasonable to have a decent number of people. Even if you're not at the boss, pvp is always a possibility in open world.
And honestly, you can get to know people in your party before you leave, however if you're in the middle of nowhere with no settlement nearby, good luck getting those extra people before someone else enters the dungeon and starts killing the boss. The situation doesn't always have to be perfect and putting everything into a tightly organized box is considered boring for some players. Socialization opportunities shouldn't have to be limited to towns and cities, especially when the world is starting out. I enjoy planning as much as the next person; however, that path seems to teeter on exclusion, lack of community building or drawing out things unnecessarily ("It's beginning to look a lot like this raid isn't going to happen~"). Could a random addition not be that much help? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the dps pool and get some advice.
I find having to watch for pvp on top of dungeoning adds a suspense factor. Open World Dungeon bosses shouldn't be adjusted for the possibility of pvp happening.
Also wouldn't there be a danger factor with the corruption system for the attackers anyway? If you don't attack the pvper, they gain corruption, run the risk of dying from the boss encounter.and if you make it back in time to finish the boss and loot the other player's drops...that pvper(s) would be having a crap day with hopefully a lesson learned and less resources/gear.
I'm a bit confused. I thought this wasn't about whether or not to have instanced dungeons or open world dungeons. Aren't we getting both? Perhaps, I should have been more specific.
I mean in regards to basically 'instancing' an open world dungeon at the boss by blocking others from entering the fight.
If you go on a group exploration and find a dungeon you want to explore now rather than later, it would seem reasonable to have a decent number of people. Even if you're not at the boss, pvp is always a possibility in open world.
And honestly, you can get to know people in your party before you leave, however if you're in the middle of nowhere with no settlement nearby, good luck getting those extra people before someone else enters the dungeon and starts killing the boss. The situation doesn't always have to be perfect and putting everything into a tightly organized box is considered boring for some players. Socialization opportunities shouldn't have to be limited to towns and cities, especially when the world is starting out. I enjoy planning as much as the next person; however, that path seems to teeter on exclusion, lack of community building or drawing out things unnecessarily ("It's beginning to look a lot like this raid isn't going to happen~"). Could a random addition not be that much help? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the dps pool and get some advice.
I find having to watch for pvp on top of dungeoning adds a suspense factor. Open World Dungeon bosses shouldn't be adjusted for the possibility of pvp happening.
Also wouldn't there be a danger factor with the corruption system for the attackers anyway? If you don't attack the pvper, they gain corruption, run the risk of dying from the boss encounter.and if you make it back in time to finish the boss and loot the other player's drops...that pvper(s) would be having a crap day with hopefully a lesson learned and less resources/gear.
we are getting both open and instanced dungeons, the point I was making from the very beginning, should there be instanced boss rooms. Now I am thinking, maybe we should have something we need to beat, be it a boss or a hard puzzle, before we get to open the next level f the dungeon.
Puzzles in the dungeon would be awesome. I was genuinely hoping for that beyond, blow up this and slash that for some loot. Some variety would be nice.
Also, don't some bosses disappear permanently when killed? I'm not sure if that is specific to rare mobs or open world bosses.
Would be cool to have to 'seal away' a weakened boss by using a puzzle to close the entrance or build a prison of some sort.
I'm a bit confused. I thought this wasn't about whether or not to have instanced dungeons or open world dungeons. Aren't we getting both? Perhaps, I should have been more specific.
I mean in regards to basically 'instancing' an open world dungeon at the boss by blocking others from entering the fight.
If you go on a group exploration and find a dungeon you want to explore now rather than later, it would seem reasonable to have a decent number of people. Even if you're not at the boss, pvp is always a possibility in open world.
And honestly, you can get to know people in your party before you leave, however if you're in the middle of nowhere with no settlement nearby, good luck getting those extra people before someone else enters the dungeon and starts killing the boss. The situation doesn't always have to be perfect and putting everything into a tightly organized box is considered boring for some players. Socialization opportunities shouldn't have to be limited to towns and cities, especially when the world is starting out. I enjoy planning as much as the next person; however, that path seems to teeter on exclusion, lack of community building or drawing out things unnecessarily ("It's beginning to look a lot like this raid isn't going to happen~"). Could a random addition not be that much help? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the dps pool and get some advice.
I find having to watch for pvp on top of dungeoning adds a suspense factor. Open World Dungeon bosses shouldn't be adjusted for the possibility of pvp happening.
Also wouldn't there be a danger factor with the corruption system for the attackers anyway? If you don't attack the pvper, they gain corruption, run the risk of dying from the boss encounter.and if you make it back in time to finish the boss and loot the other player's drops...that pvper(s) would be having a crap day with hopefully a lesson learned and less resources/gear.
Your post agrees with what I said ??? You need open world to let people mix and gel. But Openworld can never be a real challenge unless the variables are tightly controlled. Like number of players. You cant control such things unless you isolate = instance.
I have no objection to PvP in open world, just stated you cant have a hard PvE experience because you have to keep something back for possible PvP.
At no point did I say random people should not be able to enter an instance or make up the numbers of a tight knit group.
Please read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote
But people can not form these groups if there is no mechanism to first meet and greet each other and seek out compatible soul mates. Study how another plays and how they act and react with the players around them. Enable loose bonds to prod and poke others abilities to see if they will make a good team member. This is where open world gameplay and teamwork is critical. It is like meeting someone out at a party or down the pub, before you hit it off with someone and agree to embark upon a more personal adventure of sorts. After all, you dont just jump straight into bed with someone....you get to know them first (or use the cash shop).
My response was based on what you stated there. Though I think I misinterpreted based on your reaction? Though I don't know why your last reply mentions instances as my response was not in regards to creating parties before an instance. More adding on mid dungeon for survival sake. But perhaps I'm assuming too much that dungeons won't have preguides and level cues(sp?) before we enter them?
I have no objection to PvP in open world, just stated you cant have a hard PvE experience because you have to keep something back for possible PvP.
Has anyone watch Sword Art Online? If not go check it out. I think they handle how the open world dungeons should work very well. Mainly anyone can enter them, no matter the party size, even if your solo. But once you enter the Boss room, you need to be in the same party, or you can't enter once the door closes behind you.
IMO this is how it should work in this game. I am not taking about the sub-bosses, just the main boss on each level of the dungeon.
What do you guys think?
Would be cool yes, but what about the ganking potential xD
But people can not form these groups if there is no mechanism to first meet and greet each other and seek out compatible soul mates. Study how another plays and how they act and react with the players around them. Enable loose bonds to prod and poke others abilities to see if they will make a good team member. This is where open world gameplay and teamwork is critical. It is like meeting someone out at a party or down the pub, before you hit it off with someone and agree to embark upon a more personal adventure of sorts. After all, you dont just jump straight into bed with someone....you get to know them first (or use the cash shop).
My response was based on what you stated there. Though I think I misinterpreted based on your reaction? Though I don't know why your last reply mentions instances as my response was not in regards to creating parties before an instance. More adding on mid dungeon for survival sake. But perhaps I'm assuming too much that dungeons won't have preguides and level cues(sp?) before we enter them?
I have no objection to PvP in open world, just stated you cant have a hard PvE experience because you have to keep something back for possible PvP.
^For that part, I will just agree to disagree on.
My original post above did not quote you and was a reply to the OP that came after yours. A boss room within an openworld dungeon. To me the boss room has to be an instance, even if the rest of the dungeon is open world. Otherwise it will just be spawn camped, swamped or the players within ganked at their most vulnerable at the end of the boss fight when everything they have is spent. If the idea is to just let people mingle without a real challenge then fine it doesnt need to be an instance. I dont care either way. I said both are probably essential. Just stating that one is challenging and one is not.
The OP said shutting the door behind. Which instantly isolates it from the open world and creates an instance. You are managing the players and creating a controlled environment.
Apologies, yes I never realised that you were talking about adding players midfight. But I still see no problem allowing another player through the door if one goes awol. So makes no difference in my eyes.
I have no idea how you can enter a dungeon knowing the adversary and its requirements, without needing additional requirement if that content then added other adversaries like PvP players who provide a different kind of challenge as well as requiring more fire power. Thats like saying having an extra baby still only means I have one mouth to feed. So yes, we just have to disagree on that one
Also wouldn't there be a danger factor with the corruption system for the attackers anyway?
One would hope that open world dungeons would be PvP zones, so that all players are auto purple (like caravans), but as this game is really being created PvE focused allowing people to stay green to avoid PvP (cause attacker gets punished even if he wins), I highly doubt dungeons will be "auto purple".
I believe open dungeons will keep corruption mechanics and IS will explain it as "risk vs reward" thing, unfortunately.
Open dungeons do not really work. As it is all relative to how many people are in the area to make it to easy or to difficult. One dungeon that drops good loot might be packed and a struggle tag a mob and get lot and exp. while other dungeons are a struggle to survive cause you are by yourself. Open areas outside of the "Instanced" dungeon with weaker mobs is a great idea. But for open world dungeons basically the only way they can work if it is some sort of limited event with scaling.
I have no idea how you can enter a dungeon knowing the adversary and its requirements
I'm viewing it like WoW in regard to boss fights. I'm not sure how IS will handle the test realms. On WoW, beta expansions usually have streamers/youtube doing dungeon guides/run-throughs for boss mechanics before or just at expansion release. I'm curious to see if a similar norm will occur as dungeons/bosses pop up in world.
I like both the closed boss room and a open boss room ideas. the closed would be more skill based and your team would need to be well balanced to defeat the boss. On the other hand, If the boss is open to everyone it would become easier to pass a boss you might be stuck on. D and D's Neverwinter game had a good loot drop balance for the open boss rooms IMO. SAO is the only example of a good closed boss room system that I can think of.
I have no idea how you can enter a dungeon knowing the adversary and its requirements
I'm viewing it like WoW in regard to boss fights. I'm not sure how IS will handle the test realms. On WoW, beta expansions usually have streamers/youtube doing dungeon guides/run-throughs for boss mechanics before or just at expansion release. I'm curious to see if a similar norm will occur as dungeons/bosses pop up in world.
Because of this, I really hope that the "public test server" and any betas for expansions have an NDA on them so that no one can share the information about bosses, mechanics or anything else about the new content. It ruins the surprise and adventure to know exactly what you are going to find, where to find it, and how to deal with it before the content is even released.
Edit: And I know that it will be unavoidable eventually because every server will be leveling different nodes and sharing what they find, but it will take at least several months to a year after launch before everything is known and by then there will be new content patches (hopefully).
Because of this, I really hope that the "public test server" and any betas for expansions have an NDA on them so that no one can share the information about bosses, mechanics or anything else about the new content. It ruins the surprise and adventure to know exactly what you are going to find, where to find it, and how to deal with it before the content is even released.
Edit: And I know that it will be unavoidable eventually because every server will be leveling different nodes and sharing what they find, but it will take at least several months to a year after launch before everything is known and by then there will be new content patches (hopefully).
I hope they do make it difficult to do that for starting out. Having a chance to experience and learn with a group seems like a lot of fun shenanigans will go down.
I have no idea how you can enter a dungeon knowing the adversary and its requirements
I'm viewing it like WoW in regard to boss fights. I'm not sure how IS will handle the test realms. On WoW, beta expansions usually have streamers/youtube doing dungeon guides/run-throughs for boss mechanics before or just at expansion release. I'm curious to see if a similar norm will occur as dungeons/bosses pop up in world.
While this is possible, it is worth noting that - at least with how the game will launch initially - no server will have every dungeon open to them, as dungeons are dependent on node status.
Based on that, it is perfectly feasible that that the "open" beta testing server may never even see some dungeons, with testing needing to be done via invite or similar.
There is a Tagging mechanic in (avoid name of game here) where a group of X size or group already flagged as vs pvp that has damaged the boss or mob has the tag for loot and exp credit. Outside of that group you can still damage the mob or boss but get no credit.
Comments
However, can't people that decide to dungeon create a two team setting? One group to handle the boss, the other to assist with trash pulls and step in if pvp from another group becomes an issue? I would hope people would go with safety in numbers when entering a place full of dangerous mobs. o.o
I personally do like the open world concept for bosses. I'm hoping the social mechanics of this game will bring back the type of society I was used to back on classic/TBC WoW...which was, two people discovering a rare mob too strong to take down alone so they form a party to take it down and share the spoils. Instead of immediate hostility (unless of course, that is what your character is about, you naughty little outlaws, you~) and chomping at the bit for that mob that's..probably going to eat you for breakfast on your own or ends up having crap loot.
Having to weigh your options comes into play both individually and as a group. Which is what I hope to start seeing.
Do you have enough guildies online to do the dungeon right now? How long will it take them to arrive? Do you need another tank? What about healers? These other players are right there and waiting, maybe we can convince them to join us? (Charisma \o/) Or is this going to turn into an unexpected brawl because *gasps* they're a rival guild! Dun dun duuuuuun! (You know that bard was totally giving you the lazy eye~! He goes first!)
The unexpected turn of events is what I'm personally looking for in my game play. Keeps it fresh. But I might be on the lonely island with these thoughts. ;-;
And I just learned what a **** is...it's not a candy. x.x
To have a really challenging PvE dungeons requires you 100% focus on the PvE challenge. If you have to worry about PvP players, then you have to keep something back. Keep something in reserve just in case. And you dont have to be a particular good player to wait until a team has damaged all their armour, exhausted all their resources and at the verge of defeat in a really challenging dungeon to simply pop your head around the corner and wipe them. I see it as no different to the kind of player that spawn camp new players for the easy kills. So not having some kind of protection from sabotage by others, means you have to lower the content difficulty to compensate for that. You destroy the PvE challenge in favour of adding a possible PvP aspect. Perhaps we have been molliecoddled and you should always expect the unexpected, but then you cant have finely balanced, tailor made difficulty.
If dungeons are openworld, you cant have a finely tuned tailor made experience because dugeons are rarely if ever designed to be balanced against 1-100 players etc. So all you get is people massing up to make the content easier (by coincidence or intent does not matter). They arent doing the content for the challenge at that point, they are simply doing it for the completion reward. They are just on a tour to collect shinies without any effort required. If you take away the challenge from the event, is it really that fun ? Perhaps the cash shop generation means it is more important to collect shinies than do content and paying makes that even easier.
For me I see both openworld and instanced as not only necessary but essential. Instances allow groups to face tightly honed challenges that enable the group to build ever more intimate combat bonds over time. They build empathy between each other that enables them to act as one. Like a group of instruments in musical symphony.
But people can not form these groups if there is no mechanism to first meet and greet each other and seek out compatible soul mates. Study how another plays and how they act and react with the players around them. Enable loose bonds to prod and poke others abilities to see if they will make a good team member. This is where open world gameplay and teamwork is critical. It is like meeting someone out at a party or down the pub, before you hit it off with someone and agree to embark upon a more personal adventure of sorts. After all, you dont just jump straight into bed with someone....you get to know them first (or use the cash shop).
That aside, we do need a PvP equivalent of a finely tuned PvE dungeon, which is what Arenas essentially are.
I would also like to see 1-2, 2-4, 4-8, 8-16 , 16-32 man dungeons that scale between those fixes ranges.
It gives something for people ot do when no guildies are available.
It naturally lets sub groups group up into larger groups in a consistent and simple way without breaking up existing bonds.
It gives a challenge for people who feel OP in some content.
16 hardcore would find the 16-32 Damn hard.
32 casuals would find the 16-32 Tolerable/Acceptable.
I'm a bit confused. I thought this wasn't about whether or not to have instanced dungeons or open world dungeons. Aren't we getting both? Perhaps, I should have been more specific.
I mean in regards to basically 'instancing' an open world dungeon at the boss by blocking others from entering the fight.
If you go on a group exploration and find a dungeon you want to explore now rather than later, it would seem reasonable to have a decent number of people. Even if you're not at the boss, pvp is always a possibility in open world.
And honestly, you can get to know people in your party before you leave, however if you're in the middle of nowhere with no settlement nearby, good luck getting those extra people before someone else enters the dungeon and starts killing the boss. The situation doesn't always have to be perfect and putting everything into a tightly organized box is considered boring for some players. Socialization opportunities shouldn't have to be limited to towns and cities, especially when the world is starting out. I enjoy planning as much as the next person; however, that path seems to teeter on exclusion, lack of community building or drawing out things unnecessarily ("It's beginning to look a lot like this raid isn't going to happen~"). Could a random addition not be that much help? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the dps pool and get some advice.
I find having to watch for pvp on top of dungeoning adds a suspense factor. Open World Dungeon bosses shouldn't be adjusted for the possibility of pvp happening.
Also wouldn't there be a danger factor with the corruption system for the attackers anyway? If you don't attack the pvper, they gain corruption, run the risk of dying from the boss encounter.and if you make it back in time to finish the boss and loot the other player's drops...that pvper(s) would be having a crap day with hopefully a lesson learned and less resources/gear.
Puzzles in the dungeon would be awesome. I was genuinely hoping for that beyond, blow up this and slash that for some loot. Some variety would be nice.
Also, don't some bosses disappear permanently when killed? I'm not sure if that is specific to rare mobs or open world bosses.
Would be cool to have to 'seal away' a weakened boss by using a puzzle to close the entrance or build a prison of some sort.
You need open world to let people mix and gel.
But Openworld can never be a real challenge unless the variables are tightly controlled.
Like number of players.
You cant control such things unless you isolate = instance.
I have no objection to PvP in open world, just stated you cant have a hard PvE experience because you have to keep something back for possible PvP.
At no point did I say random people should not be able to enter an instance or make up the numbers of a tight knit group.
Please read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote
But people can not form these groups if there is no mechanism to first meet and greet each other and seek out compatible soul mates. Study how another plays and how they act and react with the players around them. Enable loose bonds to prod and poke others abilities to see if they will make a good team member. This is where open world gameplay and teamwork is critical. It is like meeting someone out at a party or down the pub, before you hit it off with someone and agree to embark upon a more personal adventure of sorts. After all, you dont just jump straight into bed with someone....you get to know them first (or use the cash shop).
My response was based on what you stated there. Though I think I misinterpreted based on your reaction?
Though I don't know why your last reply mentions instances as my response was not in regards to creating parties before an instance. More adding on mid dungeon for survival sake. But perhaps I'm assuming too much that dungeons won't have preguides and level cues(sp?) before we enter them?
I have no objection to PvP in open world, just stated you cant have a hard PvE experience because you have to keep something back for possible PvP.
^For that part, I will just agree to disagree on.
A boss room within an openworld dungeon.
To me the boss room has to be an instance, even if the rest of the dungeon is open world. Otherwise it will just be spawn camped, swamped or the players within ganked at their most vulnerable at the end of the boss fight when everything they have is spent. If the idea is to just let people mingle without a real challenge then fine it doesnt need to be an instance. I dont care either way. I said both are probably essential. Just stating that one is challenging and one is not.
The OP said shutting the door behind. Which instantly isolates it from the open world and creates an instance. You are managing the players and creating a controlled environment.
Apologies, yes I never realised that you were talking about adding players midfight. But I still see no problem allowing another player through the door if one goes awol. So makes no difference in my eyes.
I have no idea how you can enter a dungeon knowing the adversary and its requirements, without needing additional requirement if that content then added other adversaries like PvP players who provide a different kind of challenge as well as requiring more fire power. Thats like saying having an extra baby still only means I have one mouth to feed. So yes, we just have to disagree on that one
One would hope that open world dungeons would be PvP zones, so that all players are auto purple (like caravans), but as this game is really being created PvE focused allowing people to stay green to avoid PvP (cause attacker gets punished even if he wins), I highly doubt dungeons will be "auto purple".
I believe open dungeons will keep corruption mechanics and IS will explain it as "risk vs reward" thing, unfortunately.
Then if too many people in area AoE will just rekt them cause they will be unable to move out of it cause of place being too crowdy.
I'm viewing it like WoW in regard to boss fights. I'm not sure how IS will handle the test realms. On WoW, beta expansions usually have streamers/youtube doing dungeon guides/run-throughs for boss mechanics before or just at expansion release. I'm curious to see if a similar norm will occur as dungeons/bosses pop up in world.
Edit: And I know that it will be unavoidable eventually because every server will be leveling different nodes and sharing what they find, but it will take at least several months to a year after launch before everything is known and by then there will be new content patches (hopefully).
Based on that, it is perfectly feasible that that the "open" beta testing server may never even see some dungeons, with testing needing to be done via invite or similar.