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Economy: A discussion, I want a struggle!

Hi everyone, I wanted to hear some of your thoughts on the AoC Economy and some of the systems that the developers are aiming for. Long story short i'm a vanilla WoW player and back in my day there was a struggle to obtain craftable materials and this struggle made the game fun.

Nowadays MMO's are like the cow level in Diablo 2 if you guys have played that game, literally gold/currency is pretty much free, take your high level character to older expansion raids and farm as much as you want, just like the cow level. I am tired of being a hero in MMO's, I am tired of having more than i can chew in terms of riches/materials. Does anyone else want a struggle? Make me a poor pleb in this world, make me put effort to obtain materials that way I can feel accomplished. what are your thoughts on this topic? 

Comments

  • I'm with you on this one. It should be hard, or rather competitive, to obtain certain things in a game. If there's no competition or struggle to gain something, it is less rewarding than it would be if it'S hard to obtain. A challange should grant a reward, but just farming is meh.

  • Herdo said:
    I'm with you on this one. It should be hard, or rather competitive, to obtain certain things in a game. If there's no competition or struggle to gain something, it is less rewarding than it would be if it'S hard to obtain. A challange should grant a reward, but just farming is meh.

    There are systems I really want to see in place  to help achieve this. 

    1] Logistics - I really want Ashes to take advantage of Logistics, in a meaningful way. Bagspace, guys lets stop giving everyone infinite bags, I want to be limited, I want to make the decision what I should carry and what I should not. The caravan system should be integral in moving materials to different places.

    2] Spawn of materials - Lets take this seriously, materials should be scarce!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    gold boy, I think you hit on two of the three primary ways that they are going to make the economy competitive. The third is  access to equipment to actually craft. If your node has to be a certain level to have certain kind of equipment to make certain kind of things, then you have to go into the world to gather the scarce resources, move them back to the nodes, and then be citizen of a node with the right kind of buildings.  This is how my guild is planning right now as well 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    then you have to go into the world to gather the scarce resources, move them back to the nodes, and then be citizen of a node with the right kind of buildings.
    If there is such a high price upfront for crafting, no one would do it. It's like asking a would-be entrepreneur to be millionaire already.

    You have to gather then move the resources with costly caravans that aren't guaranteed to make it...for a chance at making your first items, is that it? Lots of people don't craft at all in FF14 because they can't be bothered and find it long. Imagine if getting a stack of low lv mat took them a month.

    That or explain yourself better. Because it sure sounds like you want people to use caravans they can't afford to just start crafting low lv stuff.
  • I wouldn't go so far as to make people struggle but I do support the notion of working for your spoils. Mobs shouldn't drop currency, that's not realistic. Currency should have a real weighted value in a game, not just how much you acquire but how much you can carry at one time. 
  • then you have to go into the world to gather the scarce resources, move them back to the nodes, and then be citizen of a node with the right kind of buildings.
    If there is such a high price upfront for crafting, no one would do it. It's like asking a would-be entrepreneur to be millionaire already.

    You have to gather then move the resources with costly caravans that aren't guaranteed to make it...for a chance at making your first items, is that it? Lots of people don't craft at all in FF14 because they can't be bothered and find it long. Imagine if getting a stack of low lv mat took them a month.

    That or explain yourself better. Because it sure sounds like you want people to use caravans they can't afford to just start crafting low lv stuff.
    Hi, nice to talk to you for the first time ever... 

    The distinction is that this game is predicated on some/most BiS coming from crafting, so there is a reason to put in the effort.

    Second, it very well should be that lower level crafting can be done from any low level 3 node, thus much smaller travel time & expense. If you can feasibly level from just crafting, as they've said, then ya there should be some work. 

    Third, materials don't have to come from just gathering. They could partly come from raiding others, raiding caravans, boss drops, etc. 

    Fourth, hopefully crafting supports the whole economy, not just equipment. Things like caravans, ships, metro building resources, etc. 
  • The distinction is that this game is predicated on some/most BiS coming from crafting, so there is a reason to put in the effort.

    I agree, for mid game (worth something when sold) or endgame stuff. It should be worth the trouble either to get it or buy it from someone who got it. But then I hope that would-be crafter can sustain their high costs for making better stuff by well, crafting. Not everybody will be pvping or gathering, some intend to specialize in crafting something specific, and the devs said that you'd have to choose at some point.

    I also don't expect pve to be a big income, unless there are repeatable quests giving currency for them. The drops that aren't used to craft (trash) are usually not worth much.

  • Struggle, where will it come from, perhaps at very low levels there might not be too much of a struggle crafting those first few pieces of gear for yourself should not be too much of an exhaustive process. It will be hard enough gathering the materials finding someone to process them and yet another person to make the weapons or armour you require. You must remember they are aiming for interdependence between crafters, characters will have to make choices as to their profession you will not be able to do it all.

    Resources will be depleted from an area, we are lead to believe there will be no node hopping, so no come back in 5 minutes and you can tap away for your handful of resources, plus no sparkles to say here look at me, you will need to hunt for the materials you need. There will be competition for resources some people may want to defend what they have found and yet others will seek to take what you have gathered by force. 

    Perhaps it will not be too hard to find what you need to craft your gear, at least not for your lower end gear, high end gear should be a completely different story with rare hard to find materials being required, not to mention the need to find people who can gather, process and then finally craft the high end item you need. Rare materials as the name suggests will be hard to come by and demand a price befitting their rarity, such resources may need a gatherer who is a master focused on gathering, with both processor and final crafter needing to be similarly focused masters.

    To build a metropolis, the sheer volume of materials needed to accomplish this may very well be in the millions of units. Those in power will determine how your taxes are spent, what buildings to build and in what order to build them, all of this will require raw materials and a lot of them. It is we the players who will provide what is needed and those materials not available locally will need to be purchase or harvested in distant nodes and then transported to where they are needed. Those competing nodes wont just sit by and let this happen seeking to disrupt progress where they can.

    Personally I think there will be plenty of struggle, it will be very hard to do it all yourself. 

  • I think what you say is likely.  I hope the players on the servers understand enough to give a damn / put in the effort. 
  • I think it should be a struggle but not one based on rng. I like the idea of having to figure out new caravan routes between new nodes and there being no one 'most lucrative' trade skill/route for all time.

    I hope there doesn't end up being the one trade route that's the most profitable and everyone goes for it, making it pointless to explore any other route - some kind of supply and demand system would be cool.
  • Ravudha said:
    I think it should be a struggle but not one based on rng. I like the idea of having to figure out new caravan routes between new nodes and there being no one 'most lucrative' trade skill/route for all time.

    I hope there doesn't end up being the one trade route that's the most profitable and everyone goes for it, making it pointless to explore any other route - some kind of supply and demand system would be cool.

    I am not sure if this will happen as resources are supposed to be depleted and there is no guarantee they will spawn in the same location. So while node A may have a good supply of iron this week it may not next week, a new supply will need to be found if that is node C a new trade rout will be established to the new supply.

    I think we will find to grow our nodes you will need a good amount of resources, while in the early stages this may come from the immediate node, later development will require larger and larger quantities that will need to come from nodes some distance away. Caravans will be a fairly common site on the roads of the more developed nodes.
  • I don't remember hearing how the node grade change would require actual building mats, just experience-in-the-node and taxes from citizens.
  • I don't remember hearing how the node grade change would require actual building mats, just experience-in-the-node and taxes from citizens.
    Just a possible inference off of a comment that there are different types of caravans.  One of the types is a node base caravan where they are requesting resources. 

    Buildings don't build themselves!  :)
  • Resources to make defense structures, siege stuff. Not permanent buildings. At least I don't think so.
  • Ravudha said:
    I think it should be a struggle but not one based on rng. I like the idea of having to figure out new caravan routes between new nodes and there being no one 'most lucrative' trade skill/route for all time.

    I hope there doesn't end up being the one trade route that's the most profitable and everyone goes for it, making it pointless to explore any other route - some kind of supply and demand system would be cool.
    I'm with you on this, but I don't think it's very likely. The community will always min/max this process and you will either use the information or fall behind. I'm sure risk, demand and time investment will play into the profitability portion. Perhaps a certain level of RNG is needed to help the process from becoming static.  
  • Resources to make defense structures, siege stuff. Not permanent buildings. At least I don't think so.

    City hall will collect taxes these taxes can be spent on buildings that will provide bonuses for the citizens of the node. There will be a requirement of materials needed to build these buildings, I think you may find deciding what is built within a node is more hands on for us the players, we will get to shape a nodes development.

    The node will level up from experience gained by its citizens but there are some buildings that we the players can decide to build/upgrade that will require resources.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    but there are some buildings that we the players can decide to build/upgrade that will require resources.

    Source on this? I figure the taxes would be enough. In real life, when I buy a house, I pay the builders and they build. I don't need to bring my bricks too, its in the price.


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    but there are some buildings that we the players can decide to build/upgrade that will require resources.

    Source on this? I figure the taxes would be enough. In real life, when I buy a house, I pay the builders and they build. I don't need to bring my bricks too, its in the price.



    I should have been may be, not will be, my bad.

    The feeling I am getting from what I was reading here https://www.ashesofcreation.com/city-hall/ taxes will indeed pay for the materials needed but we the community will provide the materials through orders the city puts up requesting the needed materials.

    To me a game that is supposed to be in large part driven by crafting and its economy not to require resources derived from its player base to build those buildings that provide bonuses to its citizens just doesn't seem to make sense to me. While you are right you pay someone to build your house you are not expected to provide your own bricks but those bricks need to be provided by someone they don't just appear out of thin air.

    Thus a nodes taxes could be used to purchase materials off the player base to build those buildings they see fit for the betterment of the node. 
  • I'll be honest, I have yet to see any game with a player driven economy, which didn't leave the starting, mid range, or casual player either grinding for hours to days on end just to acquire a few potions or items (AA), or unable to advance far (ESO).

    It will be interesting to see how Intrepid's method will work.   


  • dmgavin said:
    I'll be honest, I have yet to see any game with a player driven economy, which didn't leave the starting, mid range, or casual player either grinding for hours to days on end just to acquire a few potions or items (AA), or unable to advance far (ESO).

    It will be interesting to see how Intrepid's method will work.   


    Just curious, how did ESO prevent you from advancing?
  • Varkun said:
    dmgavin said:
    I'll be honest, I have yet to see any game with a player driven economy, which didn't leave the starting, mid range, or casual player either grinding for hours to days on end just to acquire a few potions or items (AA), or unable to advance far (ESO).

    It will be interesting to see how Intrepid's method will work.   


    Just curious, how did ESO prevent you from advancing?
    Got into the dark elf area, got to about lvl 24.  Could not finish the main story quest there on my own, with chars current gear (lvl16-20 gear).

    Tried waiting around for 3 evening for others doing the same quest but not luck.

    So went to look for gear upgrades on the auction house, and the cheapest single piece of equipment was over 150 times the amount of gold char had.

    Checked AH for a few days, but prices didn't come down, and was constantly out bided, on the few items that allowed bidding, far beyond characters means.

    So was basically stuck with progression for 6 evenings, and just stopped playing.

  • dmgavin said:
    Varkun said:
    dmgavin said:
    I'll be honest, I have yet to see any game with a player driven economy, which didn't leave the starting, mid range, or casual player either grinding for hours to days on end just to acquire a few potions or items (AA), or unable to advance far (ESO).

    It will be interesting to see how Intrepid's method will work.   


    Just curious, how did ESO prevent you from advancing?
    Got into the dark elf area, got to about lvl 24.  Could not finish the main story quest there on my own, with chars current gear (lvl16-20 gear).

    Tried waiting around for 3 evening for others doing the same quest but not luck.

    So went to look for gear upgrades on the auction house, and the cheapest single piece of equipment was over 150 times the amount of gold char had.

    Checked AH for a few days, but prices didn't come down, and was constantly out bided, on the few items that allowed bidding, far beyond characters means.

    So was basically stuck with progression for 6 evenings, and just stopped playing.

    Must suck not having friends
  • Isn't the struggle meant to be around logistics? I think there should be rich areas on the map for people to feel like fighting over but each region should have it's own resources.
  • Totally agree. A vanilla to current wow player here (with having skipped MoP and WoD) and I do miss the days when gold felt like it was actually valuable. Starting off broke and running through the world to support your playstyle and habits is truly a part of the adventure.

    But I also really hope that in order to fund your characters gameplay adequately it does not require spending hours on hours farming things. People who put in the extra work should be rewarded obviously, but I don't want the game to feel as if it is needed that you break from your current quest or objective to go do something less fun and interesting in order to make some currency.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    dmgavin said:
    Varkun said:
    dmgavin said:
    I'll be honest, I have yet to see any game with a player driven economy, which didn't leave the starting, mid range, or casual player either grinding for hours to days on end just to acquire a few potions or items (AA), or unable to advance far (ESO).

    It will be interesting to see how Intrepid's method will work.   


    Just curious, how did ESO prevent you from advancing?
    Got into the dark elf area, got to about lvl 24.  Could not finish the main story quest there on my own, with chars current gear (lvl16-20 gear).

    Tried waiting around for 3 evening for others doing the same quest but not luck.

    So went to look for gear upgrades on the auction house, and the cheapest single piece of equipment was over 150 times the amount of gold char had.

    Checked AH for a few days, but prices didn't come down, and was constantly out bided, on the few items that allowed bidding, far beyond characters means.

    So was basically stuck with progression for 6 evenings, and just stopped playing.

    Must suck not having friends
    It does! lol

    Actually I have friends, was even in a guild in ESO.   The Problem is time zones.   By the time I got home from work, talked with the wife monster, got dinner and then sat down to play, most people in bed for the night.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited December 2017
    Ok that is weird, two duplicate posts and while I was at work, so not actually from me?
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