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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The Problem isn't Questing
Lots of complaints surge when wondering about what went wrong with MMORPGs, and questing usually comes up as an issue. The usual – kill those things, gather that over there or escort that guy and any combination of the three generally make up 99.9% of questing.
This repetition though, that's not the problem. How come players will play hundreds of hours of MOBAs & online FPS shooters? These games are incredibly repetitive. The best answer that I can think of is PvP. Having players controlling all the characters allows for an endless amount of possibilities in the gameplay. Surprise & variables become virtually endless. I think that's why gamers keep playing these games.
As you know, RPGs care a lot about story and questing is one of the main tools for its storytelling. And usually, we play through it once with GREAT enjoyment, in fact, sometimes more than once because its that good. MMORPGs don't end though, they are made to keep bringing us back but they use the conventions of the RPG which is designed to be played through once maybe twice.
My conclusion is that the repetitive tasks of questing have never been the issue, it's that they always plays out the EXACT same way when you come back to them. There is never any surprise. The variables of PvP aren't present. Idk that it's possible for those variables to ever exist in questing, but I think thats what AoC is presenting to us with the node system. My hope is that questing hooks me the same way a PvP game (that I suck at) does. And I know there's a lot more to an MMORPG than just questing but let's be real – questing is the bulk of new content. We play it once (and on alts because we have to) and then mindlessly do our daily grinds.
Mild rant over. Any thoughts?
This repetition though, that's not the problem. How come players will play hundreds of hours of MOBAs & online FPS shooters? These games are incredibly repetitive. The best answer that I can think of is PvP. Having players controlling all the characters allows for an endless amount of possibilities in the gameplay. Surprise & variables become virtually endless. I think that's why gamers keep playing these games.
As you know, RPGs care a lot about story and questing is one of the main tools for its storytelling. And usually, we play through it once with GREAT enjoyment, in fact, sometimes more than once because its that good. MMORPGs don't end though, they are made to keep bringing us back but they use the conventions of the RPG which is designed to be played through once maybe twice.
My conclusion is that the repetitive tasks of questing have never been the issue, it's that they always plays out the EXACT same way when you come back to them. There is never any surprise. The variables of PvP aren't present. Idk that it's possible for those variables to ever exist in questing, but I think thats what AoC is presenting to us with the node system. My hope is that questing hooks me the same way a PvP game (that I suck at) does. And I know there's a lot more to an MMORPG than just questing but let's be real – questing is the bulk of new content. We play it once (and on alts because we have to) and then mindlessly do our daily grinds.
Mild rant over. Any thoughts?
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Comments
I think another way they could take out the predictability is by having some kind of random “enrage” for mobs. When you go to do a “kill x” quest you tend to know exactly what few abilities you need to use, and how much damage you are probably gonna take.
I think it would be interesting if you go to kill a wolf, and that wolf just had a super shitty day and was not in the mood for your shenanigans, so it goes buck wild on you. Maybe uses abilities it normally doesn’t, shakes off cc quicker, or calls a couple near by monsters to help. It almost would make a mob turn into an elite mob, but remove that preparedness you might have when you know you’re attacking an elite mob.
I completely agree with you that story is paramount & we have many unimportant side quests that totally prove your point. In fact, I think it just stacks on to the problem, bad quest story + easy predictable mobs & zones = I'm bored. Additionally, I just think that story in RPG is totally different from story in MMORPG; and to your point SWTOR failed on that premise. Incredible story and leveling experience, but it sucked at being an MMO. The "side quest" is sort of a necessary "evil" to keep your character engaged. But if that engagement is thrilling, unexpected and challenging it gives that character more longevity. I suppose I'm getting into more than just questing, but engagement with the world in general.
I think AoC is on its way to solve this problem – just imagining a scenario: You go back to an area after a while and the local players upgraded the node which brought up completely new content, while you're traveling though you notice a caravan you can attack. While in the area you notice the mobs have also changed ambushing you and having abilities you don't remember. etc...
Just the thought of reentering an area for your "daily grind" to find out its entirely different to me is exciting. So rather than just playing some npc's story over and over you are carving out your own story in this ever-changing world.
I think quests need to feel more like an optional form progression. They can still have good rewards, the important thing is not feeling like i need to do them. They can be used as a tutorial and help guide players around but don't need to be the primary way to level.
Thought below in principal idea only, not exact solution:
Player must collect material pelts from mob X to craft item A.
Mob X may be plentiful but under a to be defined principal the pelt is only extracted while in Mob Y state..
Therefore in order to hunt the mob X for that pelt they must temporarily transform into mob Y.
Mob Y - gives material 01
Mob X - gives material 02
Mob X - gives material 100 while transformed into Mob Y.
Players then become occassional mobs on the landscape. With limited or very selective defensive / offensive skills.
Allow, training and group reactions and perhaps the player controlled mob might be one additional way of increasing the dynamic of general mobs.
This might change up the monotony of how mobs are farmed.
Just a thought.
But to answer your question. Questing is a part of the MMORPG experience and in this case there will be so much to do that there is little chance of boredem. . Plus it is like Node against Node and guild vs guild. Like the caravans you could escort them and kill any would be poachers or be the bandits taking all their resources.
I encourage you to watch some of the videos and read some of the blogs so you can get the feel of the huge project that they are undertaking. Things like the Mighty Beard and Naval Combat break the quest, dungeoun, raid cycle. Plus there is going to be like an underworld and A Monster Cion system. Ashes of Creation is not a clone it more like a complex everchanging living world.
1- Significant XP gain (compare to other activities)
2- Lore (people love good vs evil scenarios and to complete stories or uncover them)
3- Special chance to drop gear (people love rewards, especially gear that will help them get better)
4- Mystery (no map indicators guiding the player to quest givers or locations, player must explore and find clues to complete them)
But questing works only if it's not repetitive, doing the same quest over and over again doesn't work for me. I need to move on and go for another questing experience, something different and a better challenge ...
2 - Lore is always fun for me. A lot of GW2 dynamic events were fun because of that.... some of them were just annoying though.
4 - I don't mind a little puzzle solving or clue finding... but too much and it becomes annoying and takes a ton more time (which again, affects the value of the reward). Little puzzle dungeons / jumping puzzles can be fun where you have to work out how to get from point A to B. "Go find three rat nests somewhere in the world." which takes and hour because you had to ask 20 villagers for clues, figure out the clues, then still have a hard time because they are small and blend in... not so much.
Don't get me wrong, I love good lore and quests. But don't "force" me to do them all the time, i.e. don't put all the rewards and xp in quests.
Generally though, I would rather see more of the story of an MMO be told by dynamic events, or quests, placed throughout the world. So when I set off towards an interesting looking area, I don't think "No point in going there until I find the quests that send me there".
I think Intrepid's idea of 3 different quest types are nice. Combine these with the node system (see @UnknowSystemError's post), monster coins, and Steven saying that exploration in itself will be rewarding, I am very positive to the direction we're seeing so far
Unlike other game types MMO's also have a lot of PVE content which is just as important, whereas MOBA and FPS games have PVE but well no need to hide the fact that bots are quite simple to play against.
Also this is just my opinion but the reason we can continue to repetatively play MOBA and FPS games all the time is because they give you plenty of stimulus, PVP itself isn't something that will give you that (think of CIV or other time consuming games) and MMO games can but not always will provide that (especially with healers around where it sometimes becomes a tedious battle until the healers die) but in MOBA's and FPS games even though you might play on the same map against the same characters/loadouts the skill of the players greatly influences the game, while in an MMO skill plays a slightly smaller role and equipment is the deciding factor (Something like in CSGO killing someone with an AK47 using a USP but in WOW you can't kill a level 100 character using a level 80 character)
I do support the idea of various quests like puzzles and the likes, especially if dungeones had lot of traps and mysteries which makes the players think a bit not just fly through by killing all they see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQ8JBxUtT8
If you watch closely you will see how all of it is just one quest. Really liked how the whole thing was put together and this video is from like Pre-Alpha. Has a full story line and every thing. Looks like that is the type game play (questing) we are in for and it looks great. Also looks like there will be a lot of group quests and storylines to be shared.
But like I said this is from Pax 2017 in September time period. Think will be alot better when it finally comes out.
Anyways, I'm sure/hoping that the node system keeps things from getting repetitive. Remember when Cataclysm came out and the entire landscape of WoW was changed? That sure felt refreshing didn't it?
For the animals I don't think 20 personalities is possible but having a varying pattern in their behaviour would make it more interesting, things like weather, time of the day/year could also be an influence.
Having mobs with multiple personality's is going to be a very hard coding mechanic for them to put in I think.
Quests in general can be monotonous but its all down to how you are viewing the world within the game.
There is a great dev diary that was posted by Brian "Psychochild" Green and Stéphane Bura that hits on every one of these points, here is another link to it: https://www.engadget.com/2012/12/27/exclusive-storybricks-dev-diary-expounds-on-bringing-npcs-to-li/
Brian clearly presents a way to make the gameworld we interact with come alive and ensure that it feels real in as much as a virtual world can resemble reality at this point. Here is the conclusion of that post:
"Advances in artificial intelligence coupled with years of experimentation in RPG-like interactive storytelling have made it possible to model characters' emotions, needs, and relationships. Using this model, developers can plug characters into story frameworks, and those characters will remember and adapt to the players' choices. Conversely, a storytelling system that can look at players' goals, accomplishments, and skills to generate stories -- and the NPCs who populate those stories -- will deliver gameplay challenges that are highly appealing to a wide variety of players because the content quickly becomes personalized. It's not so much a technical matter anymore, although the AI involved in this has a lot of clever bits. Delivering this kind of personally adaptive gameplay is now more a matter of someone having the will to make the departure from the traditional model.
We are on the verge of a revolution in computer game storytelling that is driven by player demand and game economics. In future MMORPGs, your choices will have real impact on the world of the game and will provide you with experiences that match your tastes, just as good pen and paper RPG game masters have been doing for years. At Storybricks, we are focused on realizing this future. We lament the missed potential of games so far, but we see a bright future. We hope you'll agree and that together we'll soon see this new world of MMORPGs become a reality."
I think that at this point we simply don't know what AoC has in mind when it comes to AI, questing, and NPCs. I know that they are aware of Storybricks since many of them worked on EverQuest Next and so I hope they come up with something innovative. I can say that I have a lot of fun playing games like Horizon Zero Dawn where every encounter feels like an epic battle that requires the use of tactics and preparation due to the very nature of opponents (giant robot-like beasts). I think the model we have had since WoW came out in 2004 requires a makeover, I don't think we will ever know what "really" happened to EQN but I have always admired them for their vision.
What they are trying to do is a mix, but the question is how much agency they are giving to players. Just remember that players can create a pretty interesting narrative of their own based on their actions in the world.
I understand that this game combines PvE and PvP, which is great. I just don't think that we should limit our expectations of what the game should deliver. Players need the right kind of tools to make the world interesting.
I did some searching and it looks like there is some info available on questing, so I will summarize it here. This is based on the info found here: http://aocwiki.net/Questing and here: http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/interview-ashes-of-creation-wants-bring-virtual-world-life/ Quests will consist of several categories, divided by area of effect starting at the local level and increasing in scope to encompass the entire zone around the nodes and beyond.
There will be three categories of quests: Narratives, Events, and Tasks.
Narratives will consist of the kind of quests found in other games, but it's not clear exactly what that means. Some sort of quest-line relating to NPCs? It sounds like what they mean by narrative is a story that unfolds in real time as the player completes each segment of the story arc.
Events will be public quests. Maybe a world boss that threatens the node. These will have repercussions depending on whether or not players succeed, so if we don't kill the dragon that will be the end of us!
Tasks are simple chores at the local level, "go to location a and kill x things" sort of thing.
I am mostly excited about narratives and events, tasks seem fairly boring as the name itself implies hah Narratives might also allow players to decide how the quest unfolds, so choosing what happens based on several options offered. I am not sure how "consequential" these narrative-based quests will be for the game but hopefully they will explain that further at some point.
I think that the Storybrick (or something similar) engine would be very effective in making these quests quite a bit more interesting. Imagine being able to have an actual interaction with an NPC that has his/her own agenda, motives, and even emotional reactions. You could have an entire story arc that might lead you to depose a corrupt lord or find yourself helping some peasants start a revolt against a hike in taxes. The lord might repent and offer you a title of nobility that will allow you to take charge of the node's defenses. And maybe the peasants end up reforming their village to ensure a more progressive tax regime that forces even nobility to pay a fair share, which would in turn result in that village growing to compete with the nearby player-run town eventually resulting in combat between NPCs and players. So here I went a bit further and suggested an NPC run node competing and fighting against a node created by players, and it all started with you helping out some peasants!
I am not describing Blade Runner's replicants or Google's DeepMind when I say AI. This technology is fairly simple and they had a working model of it back in 2012. Here is a nice youtube video the devs posted essentially showing how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es
A big part of this game will center on PvE, and NPCs will inevitably play a role in shaping how we as players interact with this world. I for one would be more than willing to dish out some serious cash if something like Storybricks was listed as a stretch goal. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't expect more. I will continue following the progress of this game and I hope it turns out as amazing as we expect.
Another idea is for mob composition to use a little teamwork...a small spellcaster in the back stun followed by a melee rush.
A third option is if one group of humanoids tend to get attacked more often than some other group then that farmed group auto increases their hp and damage. Example there is a group of wolves that tend to get farmed....let the wolves "adapt" and become a bit more of a challenging. Imagine going to the enemies zone and beating the crap out of some mobs along their caravans path to make it more difficult for the caravan without actively fighting the caravan yourself.
Terrain change. Random trees fall along roads which are occupied by bandits. "they weren't there yesterday." This reminds me of why I loved skyrim....random mobs and you never knew what would be around the corner.
In order to change MMOs and take the leadAoC needs to push the boundaries of what we have seen before and that is a dynamic changing world.....not just the cities but make logging in and walking down a path an adventure in itself....what will be around the corner today.