Hunger and thirst

Ok I have a crazy idea. What if you had to eat and drink in the game in order to do the mac amount of damage. Like you would have a hungar and thirst bar that would slowly drain. And as it drains you do slightly less damage and lose resistance until you get your hunger and thirst back up to full. And this would make businesses like taverns worthwhile. And it would also make the game stand out even more from the rest

Comments

  • Survival elements do not belong in a high fantasy MMORPG, imo.
  • I like this idea. And also people has to sleep or go afk for a certain amount of time to regen some energy! I like your idea. Although I'm not sure how the UI will look, I like the idea of having to eat and drink in order to survive. Maybe even when we are low on thirst and hunger, we will regenerate our health slower and move 3/4 the speed we normally could. And without energy, moving will be 2/3 of the normal speed :D
  • There should be a moderation to realistic and play ability. I'm sure everyone can agree.
    Hunger and Thirst should not affect combat, at least not directly.

    If your character haven't drank or eaten anything, then its health generation will be completely stagnant and will always lose health till a certain threshold.

    Regardless, I do like the idea of Hunger and Thirst.
  • As long as you don't die from it, I'm more or less okay with it. It basicly the same as getting a buff from the food/drinks IMO. It's just the other way around :)
  • I enjoy survival games when I'm playing survival games, but I'm not sure that those elements really belong in an MMO. It would be one thing if you could use food/drink/sleep as a boost or buff which would still support Taverns and other survival-gear merchants, but I really don't think their <em>lack</em> of use should negatively affect your character in an MMO.

    Cooking, brewing, camping, and the like are usually skills that have to be learned or require skill points to level them up to a degree where they're actually semi useful. I'm not (and never have been) a cook in games where it's an optional skill because I simply never found the marginal-at-best benefits worth the time and effort it takes to reap them. If I'm going to spend the time and effort to develop a sub-class, I'd really like to be able to choose one I <em>enjoy</em> as opposed to choosing one just so I won't be negatively impacted the lack of a power nap, a cooked meal, and elderberry tea every 12 hours.

    IMHO, unless every character has a native ability to create <em>helpful</em> food/drink items with extremely minimal ingredients/money invested, a large amount of time will end up being spent searching for the aforementioned items in order to have enough "energy" to go out and find more items, to have enough energy to go out and find more items, to have enough energy to go out and find more items, etc. etc. etc.

    I'm not bashing the survival idea exactly, because it would absolutely make this MMO stand out in a big way, I just think that it should be an optional element in the character's creation (maybe for more hardcore gamers) and not a mandatory one that I'd be "punished" for not following.
  • I like the idea, but forcing it on everyone would be annoying for a lot of people and would definitely turn people away from the game. It'd be nice if there was a hardcore server or something along those lines, then that server could implement the extra survival rules. That way everyone's happy!
  • I think a game representing a virtual world has to, by definition, have some survival elements in it!

    That doesn't mean it has to be the core gameplay loop. But that ignoring the basics would be detrimental. Remember we're going to have seasons, weather and climates.... all of which offer ample opportunity for gameplay constraints that force players into choices. How many supplies you bring, what kind of clothing you have, the route you choose to travel.

    Without some survival elements driving those choices, they would feel more empty and meaningless.

    IMO, as always!
  • [quote quote=3841]I think a game representing a virtual world has to, by definition, have some survival elements in it!

    That doesn’t mean it has to be the core gameplay loop. But that ignoring the basics would be detrimental. Remember we’re going to have seasons, weather and climates…. all of which offer ample opportunity for gameplay constraints that force players into choices. How many supplies you bring, what kind of clothing you have, the route you choose to travel.

    Without some survival elements driving those choices, they would feel more empty and meaningless.

    IMO, as always!

    [/quote]
    Exactly you need to use the systems you make, what the consiquences of not eating/drinking or having the right cloths on, well thats another story. As long as you don't die from hunger/thirst then its fine, IMO it would be too limiting, having a severe debuff would be fine however. If you run around with the wrong cloths, that should be a life/death situation IMO, getting heatstroke in the middle of the desert without water, tough luck plan better next time.

    But if you do such a system you need to make the "timers" realistic, if I get hungry after 15 irl min, then its literally gamebreaking annoying. Making it 2-3-4 hours depending on the food, thats fine, just don't make me have to fill up may bagpack with only food/water.
  • I hope that the crafting side of the game expands to cooking. In that regard you will relie on it to be most efficient or add twists to what you do/ how you do it. Having it to a degree where you need to eat and drinkt to stay alive, is to much in my opinion. Will we always have to carry food and drink around for the purpose of staying alive or to stay healthy? Will we consume food while we are offline?
    I would rather stay away from it and have it in survival dedicated games. It's another layer of balance to watch out for, and I don't think it adds enough to have a <strong>meaningful</strong> purpose here. It's either a chore or a headache.

    That's how I see it at least
  • Say no to survival in MMOs

    Make MMOs great again
  • [quote quote=3865]Say no to survival in MMOs

    Make MMOs great again

    [/quote]
    Haha you made me laugh :) Just the way it was written for some reason. In general say no, but does it really matter if its a minor debuff? and not like death or anything.
  • if i wanna play a survival game i'll go play one ( i don't, they are boring and tedious). I play survival game everyday, it's called "real life," it's full of micromanagement as it is i just don't care to have it in my RnR hobbies. while that being said...i would not mind some form of food and drink mechanic (buffs and resistances) something to make it worth doing as a tradeskill
  • [quote quote=3812]<strong>I enjoy survival games when I’m playing survival games</strong>, but I’m not sure that those elements really belong in an MMO[/quote]

    100% this

    There is another game which is in development that seems to have some similar concepts as AoC, but it also includes the Hunger element. I absolutely hate that. In a traditional MMO you have enough to carry with you and worry about from your crafting resources, equipment, gold, etc...This just adds 1 more thing to your resource management that imo offers 0 value, and creates a "grind" feel because I will need to make sure that I am always checking my "hunger meter" so that I don't lose out on potential HP regeneration or some other stat which could be the difference in life/death in a fight. It's a concept that is cool in survival games, but I don't want to see it in a MMO.
  • What's the difference between having food that give us buffs like we do in most MMOs and a system where we get debuffed if you don't eat. They are doing the same thing. In a wow, if you fight a guy with a food buff when you don't have one, you are at a disadvantage. It's the same as if you fought a guy without a hunger debuff while you have one.

    If food/cooking needs to be relevant in this game then a debuff system like this might work better then a more traditional system where food is pure buff. It's a constant reminder that you should eat and have food. It might even work better for some because it's conditioning players early on to bring food instead of like most MMOs food is only something you bring to end game content.

    In the end it's all a feeling thing. I complete understand feeling uncomfortable when you are debuffed. I feel the same way. Crowfall's system hasn't impressed me yet.
  • [quote quote=3989]What’s the difference between having food that give us buffs like we do in most MMOs and a system where we get debuffed if you don’t eat. They are doing the same thing. In a wow, if you fight a guy with a food buff when you don’t have one, you are at a disadvantage. It’s the same as if you fought a guy without a hunger debuff while you have one[/quote]

    The difference is that one is pure bonus while the other actively seeks to debuff you. Part of it is the psychology behind positive & negative actions, but it also just feels more grindy.

    Just to use numbers for reference. The hunger mechanic leaves your character at a natural state of +10 and if you don't maintain it then you fall to final state of +0.
    Food for a buff leaves your character with a natural state of +0 but then gives you a +10 if you use that item.

    Sure, mechanically there is little difference, but there is a difference behind the mentality that goes into both.
  • [quote quote=3991]
    The difference is that one is pure bonus while the other actively seeks to debuff you. Part of it is the psychology behind positive & negative actions, but it also just feels more grindy.

    Just to use numbers for reference. The hunger mechanic leaves your character at a natural state of +10 and if you don’t maintain it then you fall to final state of +0.
    Food for a buff leaves your character with a natural state of +0 but then gives you a +10 if you use that item.

    Sure, mechanically there is little difference, but there is a difference behind the mentality that goes into both.

    [/quote]

    I agree with the mental portion and i feel the same way.

    In theory, if the game lessened the grind for gear but added this mechanic that reminded you that you should eat, would it really be more grindy? In a way, this becomes part of that grind.

    Only reason i'm arguing this is that this might be a better way to encourage people to buy food which is something the devs have expressed an interest in. As you said, this system would make food feel more relevant to the player even though it isn't when compared to other games food systems. This would probably cause people to buy more food, causing cooks and farmers to be more desired. It would open up the game to people who enjoy those roles.
  • [quote quote=3872] while that being said…i would not mind some form of food and drink mechanic (buffs and resistances) something to make it worth doing as a tradeskill
    [/quote]

    With all due respect, we already have that. In every game. Ever made.

    It's kind of boring, for example, simply to make food to boost a "stat"... that's just an "on" or "off" switch with no real choice. Either you choose to have the buff, or you don't. There's no interesting gameplay there... and min-maxers will just require it. Bleh. Enough of that type of stuff.

    We need to skew more toward virtual worlds, and with that comes survival elements... but that doesn't mean it's a survival game any more than real life is.

    What it does is create interesting constraints around your choices, such as the amount of supplies you need to take on a long trip - or where and how and how much it will cost to re-supply along the way. Oh, and all of the other risk with that like bandits, etc. '

    Logistics sound like they're going to be a big part of AoC thanks to the weather, climate, seasons, etc. Survival elements are a big part of that kind of thing, so it kinda doesn't make sense unless they are here.



    [quote quote=3988] In a traditional MMO you have enough to carry with you and worry about from your crafting resources, equipment, gold, etc…This just adds 1 more thing to your resource management that imo offers 0 value, and creates a “grind” feel because I will need to make sure that I am always checking my “hunger meter” so that I don’t lose out on potential HP regeneration or some other stat which could be the difference in life/death in a fight. It’s a concept that is cool in survival games, but I don’t want to see it in a MMO.

    [/quote]

    I don't know what your MMO experience is, but I wouldn't say that's a "traditional MMO experience" at all if you go back to the birth of the genre. Food and water were *always* a big part of the game. Until certain games came around and homogenized it into what I was describing above... !

    For everyone else... take a look at systems like Eco and Wurm.

    For food, they operate on systems like calories, and food have nutrients like carbs, protein, etc. They actually have an affect on how your character performs, recovers, and so forth in ways that are not a simple "buff".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34z982e-UXk

    Anyway, it's safe to say I'm a big proponent of survival elements in a virtual world! They *have* to be there. But that doesn't mean I'm searching for a feral rabbit every 12 minutes... that's a survival *game* that relies on that stuff for the core loop. We just want *elements* of survival that emerge from the world and in turn cause us to think logistically about how we move about in it! :)
  • Yeah that's true, I'd just rather have those crafters creating things to "buff" me. I think it also allows for a more dynamic crafting economy because you could potentially create items with different kind of buffs like +10 str, +10 alacrity, or whatever whereas just a pouch of food to fill your stomach just returns you to a natural state.
  • [quote quote=3995]I don’t know what your MMO experience is, but I wouldn’t say that’s a “traditional MMO experience” at all if you go back to the birth of the genre. Food and water were *always* a big part of the game. Until certain games came around and homogenized it into what I was describing above… ![/quote]

    I never played Ultima, but I am generally aware of what you're talking about, and the difference again is that food/water worked as type of boon. I came into MMO's in the early-mid 2000's, and they have all treated "food" as just boons to offer temporary increases to stats/skills.

    It's like going into a fight with a buff to defense from a Healer. This act gave you an advantage over your natural character state. The food system the OP proposed is mechanically similar, it just feels very different.

    edit - Also, I'm just not a proponent of mixing multiple genres into MMO's. Just my preference of course, but I think MMO's are an inherently niche market that don't need to look towards what are imo gimicky features of other genres.
  • [quote quote=3997]Yeah that’s true, I’d just rather have those crafters creating things to “buff” me. I think it also allows for a more dynamic crafting economy because you could potentially create items with different kind of buffs like +10 str, +10 alacrity, or whatever whereas just a pouch of food to fill your stomach just returns you to a natural state.

    [/quote]

    Can't it be both. The hunger mechanic is there to encourage and condition people to carry food. Low level foods only satisfying the hunger requirement and higher quality foods satisfying hunger along with giving buffs.
  • [quote quote=4004]Can’t it be both. The hunger mechanic is there to encourage and condition people to carry food. Low level foods only satisfying the hunger requirement and higher quality foods satisfying hunger along with giving buffs.[/quote]

    Yeah I guess it can, but that also seems to both increase the grindy-ness of it (need to buy and stash additional resources) as well as increase that negative feeling associated with the original idea. The idea proposed by the OP is mechanically similar to a piece of food giving a short term boost. In either case either you are "buffed" (as in you are in a better state than if you did nothing)) or you are not. Having both systems though adds additional resource management because now it seems as though you <strong>have</strong> to maintain at least those low level items to maintain the steady state. You can still get a "buff" with the higher level items, but now not using anything would seem to be a true debuff as there are now 2 levels above it.

    This is all theorycraft of course, but just my .02.
  • Hunger and thirst never made Everquest feel "grindy", but were an integral part of making your character feel more real. If you forgot to stock up on food, you eventually got so hungry you would stop regenerating health and mana. But if you carried a stock of food with you, you automatically consumed it whenever your "stomach" reached the point of being able to fit another meal of whichever size you chose to carry. See this wiki for a description:

    <a href="http://wiki.project1999.com/Food_and_drink">Everquest Food/Drink</a>

    And for many players who wish to see a crafting class such as cooking made more vital to the player base as a whole, the potential value of a master chef/brewmaster could increase exponentially with the implementation of such a system. Especially if, as suggested in the previous post, there are basic foods for hunger and special foods for stat bonuses, with the possibility of cross-overs fulfilling both needs.
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