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A case for a deep high skill ceiling combat system.

How much thought are you guys putting into your core combat mechanics? When it comes to world mechanics, just based off of watching your kickstarter videos, i know you guys will do a great job there because you are attacking the problem with the right mindset, you guys are thinking critically about the problem, and are looking at it from a big picture stand point.

But I've seen little from you regarding your combat system.

I'd argue for you guys to make your combat system as deep as possible, with a very high skill ceiling, not dependent on lvl or gear, but entirely on the players personal skill that they have developed. I think the process of achieving mastery in a complex system is more valuable and meaningful than simply grinding to make a number on your character bigger. I understand the problem that comes when making a deep combat system, it comes in trying to also make a system that can appeal to the most amount of people, most people don't like hard things, its a fact of life. But i'd argue meaning and deep immersion comes from doing the hard things, not the easy things. I'd argue that risking having a smaller audience is worth it if that audience is far more dedicated and immersed into your world. Games with a deep combat system and a high skill ceiling like Dota are an example of this, i've met multiple people with upwards to 7k hours in games like Dota even though the game essentially consists of playing the same maps with the same characters. The reason why is due to how deep the system actually is. The people that play it, play it religiously, they get deeply immersed into the gameplay, because they are able to achieve a flow state.

I also want to reference this psychology wikipidea article to back up my argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) 

The first sentence on that wikipidea page is: 'In positive psychology, flow, also known as the zone, is the mental state of operation in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by complete absorption in what one does.' 

With that said, i think this is the right direction we want to go in thinking about solving this problem. Because i would argue the above is exactly what we wish to achieve.

here's an image of a graph on that page. On the graph you see a correlation between challenge level and skill level, the higher the challenge and the higher skill one can achieve, the more flow and immersion one can have in an activity. I think psychology is important here, because i'd argue that good games, are good, because they take advantage of human psychology 
<br>

I bring this up, because MMO's are known for having shallow combat systems. It plagues the genre so much, and i would argue it's one the reasons the genre is in it's current state of decay. There's only a few MMO's with somewhat high skill ceilings. Like Blade and Soul.

But even then bns is actually unbalanced in open world pvp, which is where it actually matters. Also, though it's skill ceiling is high by MMO standards, compared to other non-MMO games, there are plenty of games out there with far more depth and skill than bns.

So i would stress for the team to put as much thought and creativity into their combat mechanics, as they put into their clearly beautiful world mechanics.

Making good combat mechanics that have real depth and skill, is not easy. But it's absolutely integral, to making a world that feels truly alive, and that will continue to feel alive, even after 10,000 hours of playtime.
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Comments

  • I think a big problem with skilled based combat is PING. If you have to time combos, do dodge rolls, combo breakers, etc. in a real-time fashion against MOBs, not to mention other players, you chance hurting your sub basis.

    As for the 7,000+ hours argument, it's a sub based game, so one could get as much or as little play as they want, they're not paying by the hour. I do understand your point of countless hours. I play Dark Souls, have countless hours, but most of that is learning the combat system and adjusting to new enemies. I play mostly offline, but even in online mode I am not in competition with others in the world for resources, like in Ashes.

    That said, there is a large number of forum members that want to focus on role-play and crafting. They too, will likely have to fight at some point and they should be able to without having spent hours just practicing combat.

    I see your point, but there are other games that do deep difficult combat well and they do have devoted audiences. Ashes should be an MMO for everyone, not just those that really like skill based combat. Ashes will allow some tab-target and some live action options for your characters combat skills. For the challenge you desire, you might decide to stick with the non-tab-targeting combat skills.
  • 'I think a big problem with skilled based combat is PING. If you have to time combos, do dodge rolls, combo breakers, etc. in a real-time fashion against MOBs, not to mention other players, you chance hurting your sub basis.'

    That's true, making a deep high skill combat system could prove difficult with the pings normally experienced in MMO's. But difficult things, are the things worth doing. Eve online has come up with some creative solutions such as Time dilation. 
    I think where there's a will, there's a way. 

    '
    I see your point, but there are other games that do deep difficult combat well and they do have devoted audiences.' 

    There has never been an MMO that has truly done it well. And think that's part of the reason why the genre has been stagnating.

    Regarding crafting, trading, and other non combat skills. I think we should strive to make all systems deep, and take skill. Crafting weapons in real life, is a very difficult skill. So why shouldn't crafting in MMO's take skill as well? 

    Here's an example of a deep crafting system.

    https://youtu.be/kBGo-K2xIvs

    If you want this world to truly feel alive for countless or even an infinite amount of playtime. then you must seek depth within all systems! The reason ashes of creation is even catching peoples interest, is because of the depth of it's world mechanics. It's the first MMO, to do anything on this scale. Again, it is depth that determines how great a game truly is.



  • yes, Depth is a very big thing of why ashes is attractive, and as you have seen they are putting the work into depth of all these systems. What makes you think they are not putting the same effort into the combat system?
  • I would agree, but making the game require a high level of practiced skill is detrimental to some of their player base. At some point, most likely, all players will have to participate in combat rather PvE or PvP. Making those forced encounters frustrating for players that just want to role-play or craft is not going to help with subs.

    We need as many subs as possible to prevent the unspeakable evil in this threads from occurring. The possibilities of running economic guilds and being artisans that are actually meaningful to the world's development have brought large crowds, likely as big as the PvP crowds, to Ashes.

    Depth I totally agree with, required high skill level I am not on board with. Again, it took me 3.5 hours to finally beat the tutorial boss in Dark Souls III, I like challenge and don't mind failure if I can get better. I, however, would not be a fan of dying again and again trying to learn the system while incurring more and more xp debt. For those that, for many reasons, have trouble with that level of required skill this game will be no fun for them.

    I think the balance can be depth of all the systems, from nodes to combat and crafting. My argument is only against requiring a high skill level for combat. I don't think it should be easy, but you probably shouldn't die a dozen times before completing the tutorial.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    I don't think having a deep, high skill combat necessary means everyone has to play with builds that require a lot of mechanics. I hope every class has build options that require a high level of mechanical skill to use effectively but i also think you should be able to make a build that is easier to use.

    Think mobas. There are characters that vary in mechanical depth. In league, you have characters like yasuo and zedd who have kits that take a lot to master but you also have simple champions like garen and annie. The combat can still have a lot of depth without requiring every player have a lot of mechanical skill. 

    In ashes, it would be cool to be able to create a build that you are comfortable playing. I'm hoping this is the goal of their hybrid system. Allow players to make builds with different "skill levels."

  • I'm all for depth in the combat system, and the idea of "easy to learn, difficult to master". 

    However, what is meant by "skill"? E.g. I would not want skill to equate twitch based skill where fast reaction time and good aiming is all that counts. For me, a system akin to speed chess would be much better. I.e., player skill lies more in having the right build, and last but not least, using your skills at the right time based on the context and what your opponent is doing. Thinking fast and reaction time also plays into this equation, of course, but it is more based on knowledge, experience and tactics rather than reaction. 

    Also, both regarding skill and depth, imo it is important that it doesn't affect power too much, where skilled players totally destroy less skilled players without taking a scratch. It is interesting to note McStackersen's reference to Leage of Legends. Some champions require much more skill than others, without necessarily being more powerful. However, they might fit a players style better, and the player's reward lies in making cool plays and mastering something that is difficult. As long as it feels different, it doesn't have to be more powerful. 
  • In depth combat is great for players that have the time and drive to dedicate into the game, for people who want a more casual approach this is very off-putting, I'm all for the 'easy to learn, difficult to master' type just like @Vanqor said, AoC seems to have a great amount of depth in it's mechanics but too much is no good either, just my opinion though :3
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
  • nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    I'd rather have a shallow skill ceiling and a wider variety of skills.
    So that winning a battle is less about power and more about strategy.
  • FFXI had a shit ton of skills, spells, and abilities.  The combat was simple yet there was a lot of complexity to it.  Depending on the ranged weapon you used, the distance between you and the mob could dictate the damage on a significant level, melee attacks and the position on the mob you are, and it had this skill chain system.  The Skillchain systems had a large variety of effects.  It was triggered by combining two to three weaponskills in a special timed window of when they had to be used in conjunction of each other and the order.  When you timed these skills right and triggered a SC, mages could use a spell of the elemental affinity of the Skillchain and do what's called a Magic Burst. So you'd have the timed weapon skills themselves which would do individual damage, the skillchain which would add a certain element type of damage, and then the Magic Burst off of that for even more.  A Black Mage would have some really long cast times with their Ancient Magic and it was like a 10 second cast time.  They would time that spells cast time with the weaponskills so they could Magic Burst.

    Complexity like that is what is intriguing, it doesn't have to be an oversimplified basic combat system as long as the system itself has mechanics that help every class synergize with each other.  This would create a lot of needed strategy, thus making it complex.


  • nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
  • nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
  • Ceiling is only as high as you make it.
  • Before discussing skill, we should discuss netcode. What devs have to report on that regard? Hope they plan to schedule several stress tests.
  • nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
    I definitely think there can (and should) be some sort of a skill element to MMO combat.

    It looks like Pantheon is leaning towards super old school EQ1 style combat with auto attack. The fanbois over there obviously think that's a super idea, but as someone who has pledged $250 for a spot in Alpha, I shudder to think how poorly that game will be received. The EQ1/Pantheon fanbois are mis-remembering a lot about what made EQ1 great, but that isn't really a topic to go into here.

    The somewhat out of place "click when the bar moves into the red area" mechanic Ashes stole from the first golf video games is clearly an attempt to inject some skill into combat. I don't think it's a great idea to promote immersion and then force players to focus on a little bar at the bottom of their screen for every attack, but I'm not a game designer.

    To me, it would be much more immersive if players had to watch what was going on in the battle and react accordingly. For example, a Rogue staying behind a mob so he can back stab. A Tank using Scorpion's "Get over here" chain attack they stole from Mortal Kombat to control enemies. A Cleric laying down a healing idol in the center of the action to help his allies, and those allies trying to stay in range of that idol. A Ranger keeping his eye open for enemies standing in the fire field created by a Summoner so his explosive arrow can do extra damage.

    You know, things like that. Skill based around team work and character development that doesn't require so much twitch.   
  • nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
    I definitely think there can (and should) be some sort of a skill element to MMO combat.

    It looks like Pantheon is leaning towards super old school EQ1 style combat with auto attack. The fanbois over there obviously think that's a super idea, but as someone who has pledged $250 for a spot in Alpha, I shudder to think how poorly that game will be received. The EQ1/Pantheon fanbois are mis-remembering a lot about what made EQ1 great, but that isn't really a topic to go into here.

    The somewhat out of place "click when the bar moves into the red area" mechanic Ashes stole from the first golf video games is clearly an attempt to inject some skill into combat. I don't think it's a great idea to promote immersion and then force players to focus on a little bar at the bottom of their screen for every attack, but I'm not a game designer.

    To me, it would be much more immersive if players had to watch what was going on in the battle and react accordingly. For example, a Rogue staying behind a mob so he can back stab. A Tank using Scorpion's "Get over here" chain attack they stole from Mortal Kombat to control enemies. A Cleric laying down a healing idol in the center of the action to help his allies, and those allies trying to stay in range of that idol. A Ranger keeping his eye open for enemies standing in the fire field created by a Summoner so his explosive arrow can do extra damage.

    You know, things like that. Skill based around team work and character development that doesn't require so much twitch.   
    Yeah pretty much that, though I actually like the idea of the small bar to a certain extent, if only they could make it less 'attention seeking' since it would be hard to enjoy the visuals while focusing the bar, the combat you described is pretty much standard for team fights in mmo's, each class has a role to fulfill and focus on doing just that, this is how mmo's should be, it's just my own preferences that I would rather more individualism in combat, so for example a cleric doesn't JUST heal but can also deal damage (as low as it may be).
  • nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
    I definitely think there can (and should) be some sort of a skill element to MMO combat.

    It looks like Pantheon is leaning towards super old school EQ1 style combat with auto attack. The fanbois over there obviously think that's a super idea, but as someone who has pledged $250 for a spot in Alpha, I shudder to think how poorly that game will be received. The EQ1/Pantheon fanbois are mis-remembering a lot about what made EQ1 great, but that isn't really a topic to go into here.

    The somewhat out of place "click when the bar moves into the red area" mechanic Ashes stole from the first golf video games is clearly an attempt to inject some skill into combat. I don't think it's a great idea to promote immersion and then force players to focus on a little bar at the bottom of their screen for every attack, but I'm not a game designer.

    To me, it would be much more immersive if players had to watch what was going on in the battle and react accordingly. For example, a Rogue staying behind a mob so he can back stab. A Tank using Scorpion's "Get over here" chain attack they stole from Mortal Kombat to control enemies. A Cleric laying down a healing idol in the center of the action to help his allies, and those allies trying to stay in range of that idol. A Ranger keeping his eye open for enemies standing in the fire field created by a Summoner so his explosive arrow can do extra damage.

    You know, things like that. Skill based around team work and character development that doesn't require so much twitch.   
    Yeah pretty much that, though I actually like the idea of the small bar to a certain extent, if only they could make it less 'attention seeking' since it would be hard to enjoy the visuals while focusing the bar, the combat you described is pretty much standard for team fights in mmo's, each class has a role to fulfill and focus on doing just that, this is how mmo's should be, it's just my own preferences that I would rather more individualism in combat, so for example a cleric doesn't JUST heal but can also deal damage (as low as it may be).
    A Cleric deciding between dealing damage and healing group members is exactly the kind of skill I'm talking about, and it has nothing to do with being able to time a click correctly.

    In your example, a skillful Cleric will be able to contribute DPS and keep the party healed. An unskilled Cleric will probably be forced to focus on healing 100% of the time. A skillful Cleric could allow a group to kill ~10% faster, so skill can definitely play a fairly large role in group success.
  • I think the term "stole" when relating to game mechanics is a bit harsh. Unless you believe every action movie "stole" the explosion scene from the first action movie ever.

    I am not sure of any video games that have not "Stolen" based on similar relations. Video games have been in the home for almost 50 years, it's going to be hard to find games that are 100% original.

    I like the combat mechanic of using a QTE. Since what we saw was pre-alpha footage, I am sure the bar won't last until release. But this has been discussed in many other threads.
  • Id hope that it was

    skill>Level>Gear

    I loved UO and it was not based on gear. Every game I have played after has been crap compared to it.

  • nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
    I definitely think there can (and should) be some sort of a skill element to MMO combat.

    It looks like Pantheon is leaning towards super old school EQ1 style combat with auto attack. The fanbois over there obviously think that's a super idea, but as someone who has pledged $250 for a spot in Alpha, I shudder to think how poorly that game will be received. The EQ1/Pantheon fanbois are mis-remembering a lot about what made EQ1 great, but that isn't really a topic to go into here.

    The somewhat out of place "click when the bar moves into the red area" mechanic Ashes stole from the first golf video games is clearly an attempt to inject some skill into combat. I don't think it's a great idea to promote immersion and then force players to focus on a little bar at the bottom of their screen for every attack, but I'm not a game designer.

    To me, it would be much more immersive if players had to watch what was going on in the battle and react accordingly. For example, a Rogue staying behind a mob so he can back stab. A Tank using Scorpion's "Get over here" chain attack they stole from Mortal Kombat to control enemies. A Cleric laying down a healing idol in the center of the action to help his allies, and those allies trying to stay in range of that idol. A Ranger keeping his eye open for enemies standing in the fire field created by a Summoner so his explosive arrow can do extra damage.

    You know, things like that. Skill based around team work and character development that doesn't require so much twitch.   
    Yeah pretty much that, though I actually like the idea of the small bar to a certain extent, if only they could make it less 'attention seeking' since it would be hard to enjoy the visuals while focusing the bar, the combat you described is pretty much standard for team fights in mmo's, each class has a role to fulfill and focus on doing just that, this is how mmo's should be, it's just my own preferences that I would rather more individualism in combat, so for example a cleric doesn't JUST heal but can also deal damage (as low as it may be).
    A Cleric deciding between dealing damage and healing group members is exactly the kind of skill I'm talking about, and it has nothing to do with being able to time a click correctly.

    In your example, a skillful Cleric will be able to contribute DPS and keep the party healed. An unskilled Cleric will probably be forced to focus on healing 100% of the time. A skillful Cleric could allow a group to kill ~10% faster, so skill can definitely play a fairly large role in group success.
    Well yeah more or less I guess I phrased myself a bit badly there.

    Azathoth said:
    I think the term "stole" when relating to game mechanics is a bit harsh. Unless you believe every action movie "stole" the explosion scene from the first action movie ever.

    I am not sure of any video games that have not "Stolen" based on similar relations. Video games have been in the home for almost 50 years, it's going to be hard to find games that are 100% original.

    I like the combat mechanic of using a QTE. Since what we saw was pre-alpha footage, I am sure the bar won't last until release. But this has been discussed in many other threads.
    I also think that using the term stole is too much, in fact many games have similar if not identical abilities and they aren't stolen in particilar.

    In regards to the bar I really hope they can do something about it because the idea was very attractive in my opinion, if only the entire focus wasn't on the bar :cry:
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    nscheffel said:
    Sorry, but if you want a twitch game, go play a twitch game.

    "Skill" in MMO combat should be knowing which mobs to kill first, which mobs to mez, which mobs to off tank, which mobs have AEs, which mobs run, which mobs heal themselves, etc. 

    "Deep" MMO combat should be knowing how to interact and/or combo with other classes. 

    If you want to dodge, duck, dip dive and dodge, go play one of the 1,000 twitch games out there...or dodgeball.   
    Not really ? knowing which mobs to kill first and so on is knowledge, not every MMO has to be the same if there is no mechanical skill involved in playing the game but simply pressing skills in the appropriate pattern then a lot of people might find it boring.
    Correct. So where are the complaints about twitch games with high skill combat not having deep character progression? There aren't any because character progression doesn't belong in high skill twitch games...by design.

    Folks who play skill based twitch games aren't concerned with character progression. They want their skill to be the determining factor (as it should be). In fact, they will be playing a new game in 2 years, so they don't care about character progression at all. That's fine. That's what those games are for.

    Folks who play MMOs want their character's progression over years of play time (sometimes 5+ years) to be the determining factor, not how quickly they can point and click their mouse. That's fine. That's the point of those games...to build a character and be part of a gaming world.

    Different games, different styles, different goals. If a "boring" MMO isn't for you, then don't play. There are countless twitch games out there that are excellent.
    Well I more or less agree, just don't set a standard for MMO's so easily, take BDO for example it has a higher difficulty of combat compared to WoW or SWTOR, obviously it's not at the level of CSGO where everything is determined by your mechanical skill but it is engaging enough, well just sharing my opinion on the matter here, we'll see what excatly the devs will come up with in the future.
    I definitely think there can (and should) be some sort of a skill element to MMO combat.

    It looks like Pantheon is leaning towards super old school EQ1 style combat with auto attack. The fanbois over there obviously think that's a super idea, but as someone who has pledged $250 for a spot in Alpha, I shudder to think how poorly that game will be received. The EQ1/Pantheon fanbois are mis-remembering a lot about what made EQ1 great, but that isn't really a topic to go into here.

    The somewhat out of place "click when the bar moves into the red area" mechanic Ashes stole from the first golf video games is clearly an attempt to inject some skill into combat. I don't think it's a great idea to promote immersion and then force players to focus on a little bar at the bottom of their screen for every attack, but I'm not a game designer.

    To me, it would be much more immersive if players had to watch what was going on in the battle and react accordingly. For example, a Rogue staying behind a mob so he can back stab. A Tank using Scorpion's "Get over here" chain attack they stole from Mortal Kombat to control enemies. A Cleric laying down a healing idol in the center of the action to help his allies, and those allies trying to stay in range of that idol. A Ranger keeping his eye open for enemies standing in the fire field created by a Summoner so his explosive arrow can do extra damage.

    You know, things like that. Skill based around team work and character development that doesn't require so much twitch.   
    Yeah pretty much that, though I actually like the idea of the small bar to a certain extent, if only they could make it less 'attention seeking' since it would be hard to enjoy the visuals while focusing the bar, the combat you described is pretty much standard for team fights in mmo's, each class has a role to fulfill and focus on doing just that, this is how mmo's should be, it's just my own preferences that I would rather more individualism in combat, so for example a cleric doesn't JUST heal but can also deal damage (as low as it may be).
    A Cleric deciding between dealing damage and healing group members is exactly the kind of skill I'm talking about, and it has nothing to do with being able to time a click correctly.

    In your example, a skillful Cleric will be able to contribute DPS and keep the party healed. An unskilled Cleric will probably be forced to focus on healing 100% of the time. A skillful Cleric could allow a group to kill ~10% faster, so skill can definitely play a fairly large role in group success.
    Well yeah more or less I guess I phrased myself a bit badly there.

    Azathoth said:
    I think the term "stole" when relating to game mechanics is a bit harsh. Unless you believe every action movie "stole" the explosion scene from the first action movie ever.

    I am not sure of any video games that have not "Stolen" based on similar relations. Video games have been in the home for almost 50 years, it's going to be hard to find games that are 100% original.

    I like the combat mechanic of using a QTE. Since what we saw was pre-alpha footage, I am sure the bar won't last until release. But this has been discussed in many other threads.
    I also think that using the term stole is too much, in fact many games have similar if not identical abilities and they aren't stolen in particilar.

    In regards to the bar I really hope they can do something about it because the idea was very attractive in my opinion, if only the entire focus wasn't on the bar :cry:
    I definitely didn't mean to use the word "stole" in a negative sense. Poor choice of wording on my part. Copied. Borrowed. Influenced by. Change it to whatever seems appropriate haha.

    The idea of the bar can be maintained, yet replaced with a visual cue that more seamlessly fits in the overall action. For example, the bar for the normal attack could be replaced by clicking during the correct part of the swing animation...maybe your character pauses at the top of his back swing. 

    I'm obviously not creative enough to come up with good game mechanic ideas, but the folks who are making this game probably are. They should be able to come up with something less immersion-breaking than staring at bar "influenced by" a golfing video game from the 90s.
  • Unfortunately even with all this stuff here, you have stated what I'm assuming the devs already know. They know combat is important, why else do they want to get it right and they tried that dumb quick time thing. The point of this criticism here, is you didn't offer a solution. We know the devs need to get it right, and the devs know they need to. Supporting the claim that combat should be complex doesn't help because we all know it needs to be complex.
  • Faraven said:
    Unfortunately even with all this stuff here, you have stated what I'm assuming the devs already know. They know combat is important, why else do they want to get it right and they tried that dumb quick time thing. The point of this criticism here, is you didn't offer a solution. We know the devs need to get it right, and the devs know they need to. Supporting the claim that combat should be complex doesn't help because we all know it needs to be complex.
    I think the debate going on here has to do with how "skill" should be defined in MMO combat. Some people want to see more twitch elements, and some think skill should center more around combat decisions.

    "They have to get it right" is a given. Nobody is debating that point.

    There have been several examples of both types of skill given by several posters in this thread. They may not be good solutions since we aren't game designers, but they are certainly good enough to get the point across.
  • @nscheffel, I have read many of your post, I think you are plenty creative :wink:
  • One of the things that attracted me to this game is (forgive me I forget the name of it) the little bar that appears on the screen to time your attacks. This adds a degree of skill to the game while deliberately taking away from the fast paced spam the button as fast as you can gameplay that is in every other MMO I have played. I like this a lot.

    I play BDO and I absolutely hate the combat system. It's all memorized twitch responses and switching between characters is so hard for someone like me who only has a few hours to play a week it's not even worth it. The learning curve is way too steep. Yeah, it's more interesting than click a button - cast a spell. But more interesting and better are two different things. 

    In an MMO, the things that have made combat fun for me are 
    1.  Monitoring resource spending. Having to decide between casting a big spell and burn through my mana or a small spell to last longer in the fight. It can be annoying at times, especially when the system is too restrictive, but having this resource have meaning is important.
    2. Group dynamics. Beyond the tank/healer/damage, when games have mechanics that make you rely on cooporation and communication with each other to succeed. Tank swap coordination, classes that provide buffs that help other classes, etc. Some MMOs even have combos that one class can set up and then another class follows through with.
    3. The need for crowd control and strategy. Running through and easily smashing everything without thought or care is fun to start, but gets really old after a while.
    4. Threat control. Not only as a tank, but all roles. When threat is a nonissue it makes for fairly boring gameplay.
    5. Needing a healer. I love playing a healer. It's probably my favorite role, but so many games either eliminate this role all together or make self-healing so easy for every class that it's a nonissue. Have players depend on each other!
  • i don't think the combat needs to be deeper in the sense that it would be more difficult, but i feel like it would be a make it or break it deal for me if the combat doesn't end up more fluid and bit more fast paced (not necessarily harder) at the time of beta or release. OH and if the combat was a bit more enjoyable to look at that would help too and yes i know all current combat footage is still not close to the final product. what do you guys think about that?
  • As long as combat is not broken in a sense where attacks/etc. don't work, I am fine. I enjoy combat but for me it's not a make or break deal as long as I can defend myself and occasionally kill things.

    I remember older games where I dealt with, looking back, pretty shady and crappy combat mechanics. I can't imagine IS putting out anything equal or worse to that, so I will be fine (again, as long as it works).
  • Kitzi said:
    One of the things that attracted me to this game is (forgive me I forget the name of it) the little bar that appears on the screen to time your attacks. This adds a degree of skill to the game while deliberately taking away from the fast paced spam the button as fast as you can gameplay that is in every other MMO I have played. I like this a lot.

    I play BDO and I absolutely hate the combat system. It's all memorized twitch responses and switching between characters is so hard for someone like me who only has a few hours to play a week it's not even worth it. The learning curve is way too steep. Yeah, it's more interesting than click a button - cast a spell. But more interesting and better are two different things. 

    In an MMO, the things that have made combat fun for me are 
    1.  Monitoring resource spending. Having to decide between casting a big spell and burn through my mana or a small spell to last longer in the fight. It can be annoying at times, especially when the system is too restrictive, but having this resource have meaning is important.
    2. Group dynamics. Beyond the tank/healer/damage, when games have mechanics that make you rely on cooporation and communication with each other to succeed. Tank swap coordination, classes that provide buffs that help other classes, etc. Some MMOs even have combos that one class can set up and then another class follows through with.
    3. The need for crowd control and strategy. Running through and easily smashing everything without thought or care is fun to start, but gets really old after a while.
    4. Threat control. Not only as a tank, but all roles. When threat is a nonissue it makes for fairly boring gameplay.
    5. Needing a healer. I love playing a healer. It's probably my favorite role, but so many games either eliminate this role all together or make self-healing so easy for every class that it's a nonissue. Have players depend on each other!
    The bar is something they are either working on or a similar mechanic or they did off with it completly since it wasn't in the Alpha Zero stream but I don't know did they mention it recently.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    Hello all. 

    I've read through everything you guys have written so far. At first I didn't really feel like taking the time to 'defend' my points. I'm not here to debate, especially about something that largely comes down to preference. I'm just here to state my preferences, and objective as possible statements about why I think a deep high skill system is necessary for a world to be truly alive. 

    My personal preference, is that if a game cannot get me into a deep flow state, then I simply cannot become deeply immersed into this game. And as I stated above and have given links to research that backs this up, not to mention from my own personal experience. A flow state is only achieved when a system is challenging, and you have achieved a minimum level of skill in this challenging system. It's a bit difficult to comprehend a flow state if you have never been in a deep flow state before. Most people have not, because most people do not attempt to achieve mastery within complex systems. 

    I play a lot of high skill ceiling games, and i get very-very good at them. To give some perspective, I think Dark souls and bloodborne are easy. I'm quite surprised someone here actually thought the game was too difficult. The thing is, the more skilled you become at games, the more it takes to get into that oh so lovely state of deep flow. Right now the only games that really interest me are Super Hexagon, Touhou, Blade Symphony, and Chess. There are a few more, but they haven't really been released yet, such as Exanima (Sui Generis) and this other game called Hatashiai. 

    Counter to what someone here said about players like me going from game to game, I absolutely disagree. I think we are the type of players that dedicate the most time and effort into a single game. Hence why we have thousands of hours into these games. Hence why Chess has literally been around for hundreds of years, and why people spend literally their entire lives studying the system. Go has been around even longer and is truly an even greater game than Chess, it's probably the deepest game humans have ever made. These games also don't require you to spend so much time just to get competent at the systems. Super Hexagon for example only requires around 20-30 hours to actually beat. Yet only around 3% of the millions of people who get the game actually beat it. It's not because most people don't have the time, it's because most people lack the perseverance, grit. Which is also probably why most people don't accomplish their dreams in this world. Because they lack the will power, perseverance, and grit to do so. 

    Anyway, sorry for the ramble, I'm not trying to debate the topic, just trying to clarify some things about myself and where i'm coming from. 

    The real reason why I thought it would be appropriate to respond. Was that I noticed there was some confusion regarding the term 'skill' and 'depth'. And I felt, seeing as I brought up the topic, that it was only fair that I at least clarify these terms if I wish for people to actually consider these ideas. 

    The first thing is that 'skill ceiling' and 'depth' are essentially the same thing. The deeper system, the more skill one can attain within said system. A game doesn't have to be complex, in order for it to have a high skill ceiling. In fact most of the great games, are actually very-very simple, such as Chess. And Go which is even simpler, and yet far more deeper than Chess.

    Easy to learn, and yet extremely hard to master, if not impossible to master. Is the core of any great game. 

    There also seems to be some confusion in regards to 'twitch skill' and 'strategic skill'. 

    Most twitch skill games, actually don't have a high skill ceiling. Hence why it's easy to build a simple AI that can beat humans in those types of games, such as an aimbot. Making an AI that can beat a human in Chess, or Go, is far more difficult. Because those systems literally are more difficult to understand. Skill, is the equivalent of understanding, and the 'skill ceiling' or the 'depth' of a system. Is effectively a measurement of how difficult it is to understand those systems. Complex systems can be generated from very-very simple rules.. that's the beauty of complex systems. To be clear as well, understanding, doesn't have to be conscious understanding. In fact, many systems are so complex, you can't really consciously understand how you're doing everything that you're doing. An example that many of you may be familiar with, is riding a bike. In Go, top players, when asked why they made a certain move, can't tell you why. The only response they can really give you, is that it 'felt' right. It's beautiful, truly..

    If you ever fought a person in a high skill ceiling game, it can feel like a dance.. I love it so very much.

    Anyway I hope that clears up somethings..

    Here's a really good video that goes into detail about this topic as well. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxRxh8Ka5H8

    Here's another good video about over complexity, which is a problem that many MMO's experience. Hence the cluttered UI and many different abilities. Yet their systems still remain shallow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU
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