Instanced Dungeons

ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
edited January 2018 in Ashes of Creation Design
Hey guys just wanted to discuss the pros of having instanced PVE. Just some background on me, I’m a Rank One gladiator and multiple times regular gladiator (top .1% and .5% of wow pvp) on world of Warcraft. I’ve also been a MLG champion on Ubisoft’s For Honor, so obviously I’m all about the pvp and competition. 

I was watching a Bigfrytv video moments ago and he said there was no instanced dungeons. So then other teams and gankers can interrupt your dungeon/raid flow. 

In addition to my pvp experience I also have some mythic kills (highest difficulty of WoW pve) and over a 2000 m+ dungeon score. Even as a casual pve player this would be so bad if people can camp you while trying to pull bosses and even trash mobs. 

I get sweaty when I pvp, but when I pve I want to collect gear, shoot the breeze with my friends who aren’t so good at pvp, and just chill. 

Intrepid, please take it from a highly experienced and decorated pvper, make instanced pve for dungeons and raids.


*Very excited for your game, you guys are doing great work*

Comments

  • There will be some instanced dungeons as far as I know, but IS said that they want the game to be as open world as possible so many dungeons and other things will not be instanced, so I wouldn't worry about there being no dungeons for casual pve players to enjoy.

    Personally it comes down to preference, I like the idea of contesting for mobs and bosses and being wary of those around you in a dungeon.
  • A term we like to use when discussing this game is PVX. In Wow, PvE and PvP are separated out into different activities but here they are combined into one game. 

    And just because you can be attacked while doing pve content doesn't mean you can't relax while doing it. I've played full loot games and we still relax and joked around while doing pve. It's just sometimes the relaxation gets interrupted by some excitement when someone attacks you. Doesn't mean you have to be on edge all the time. 
  • @McStackerson does have a point. This game needs to stand out and the major flaw I see mainly for this game, is if they acquiescence to the demand of the majority of Wow/similar mmo players. Not trying to be harsh, but the whole point of "make mmo's great again" is to avoid copying verbatim Wow, Rift, Wild Star, and etc whens it comes to the separation of pve and pvp. While also not going down the route of FFA pvp like early release of Age of Conan and Darkfall as that gets old to when trying to progress.

    If getting ganked while raiding is an issue, I am sure that you can hire out a guild that will guard the entrance for some gold or loot. If they deliver this hybrid, then you can expect reputation to make a major impact and have very interesting in game player jobs that aren't going to coded in similar to a lot of the old school mmo's like guarding dungeons or being a middle man to handle said payments and etc.
  • The game has great concepts, I just pray they can deliver. I really pray. 
  • well I have to agree with the post

    u need to have instance raids\dungeons, if not it will be train to end boss and camping bosses

    that is not fun raiding that is a recipe for disaster  

  • All valid points in my opinion, I'm hopeful that the testing during Alpha and Beta will cause designs to change as a response of the experiences. Intrepid have shown that they listen to the player base so far, so I'm remaining optimistic!
  • A lot of people here seem to assume that "raid bosses" will be sort of easy to handle, for raid guilds at least - if i could chose i would only have world bosses (in different sizes) and no raids whatsoever, with instanced loot (each player gets his own loot according to his/her participation). I do not know if anyone remembers Asheron´s Call 1 (last century), but there you did not have instances at all - you needed to arrange yourself with people around you for special drops. Raids mean that raid loot will go to raid guilds which means excluding anyone unwilling or unable to raid from top tier loot. 
  • Oban said:
    A lot of people here seem to assume that "raid bosses" will be sort of easy to handle, for raid guilds at least - if i could chose i would only have world bosses (in different sizes) and no raids whatsoever, with instanced loot (each player gets his own loot according to his/her participation). I do not know if anyone remembers Asheron´s Call 1 (last century), but there you did not have instances at all - you needed to arrange yourself with people around you for special drops. Raids mean that raid loot will go to raid guilds which means excluding anyone unwilling or unable to raid from top tier loot. 
    I like the idea, but for someone that is pretty ignorant with raiding in general, how would the system be fair when it comes to "his/her participation? Wouldn't this screw over the support classes that they intend to put into the game? So far the speculation tends to be that they are going to be heavy in utility which is doesn't necessarily make it dps, heals, or buffs per say.
  • I am concerned if there are multiple people waiting to do dungeoun.  Waiting for dungeoun to respawn.  Guess we could all go in there all at ounce but loot drop rate would be low.  

    Plus lets say boss dungeoun drops certain special item like mount or pet or just some other rare item that most people want. So it makes for a huge demand to do that dungeoun.(Unless Dungeoun Loot Tables are linked) Level one dungeoun  goes to level one loot table and so on.

    With out instance dungeouns there could be more people that want to do that one dungeoun than it can accomodate..  Guess there could be a limit on how many people in there at ounce but that would be like a crippled instance. Force people to wait until space comes available.  Really have not heard to much one the game mechanics for this.  

    If there was Personal loot then 100 people could go in kill boss everyone  has fair chance for something to drop if anything drops at all but at least will not have to roll against 100 people. But I heard Intrepid Studios is not to excited about personal loot. 

    I prefer instanced dungeouns by the way.  Go to entrance with people and then go to insance.  This could lead to things like I will go and wait outside entrance for seven more people to show up then do it.


    Depending on Game mechinics could go to dungeoun and find out is was just done so it is all empty.  Would be nice to have reset button for dungeoun if it is empty. Or maybe it will happen automatically.
  • Honestly I hope Ashes does not copy the WOW gear Treadmill.  If I wanted to play the WOW Gear Treadmill I would be playing WOW or FFXIV.  I dont want that.  Not saying they couldnt have use for Instanced dungeons because there can be a non treadmill use for these dungeons.   But I dont want the Treadmill.


    I think we need to also rethink the Gearing system to more of a SWG like gearing system where people replace their gear often because their gear broke.   You can easily just go to a crafter and buy the gear off his vendor, or have 3 or 4 sets at your house. 

    We dont need a gear treadmill though.  
  • I am concerned if there are multiple people waiting to do dungeoun.  Waiting for dungeoun to respawn.  Guess we could all go in there all at ounce but loot drop rate would be low.  

    Plus lets say boss dungeoun drops certain special item like mount or pet or just some other rare item that most people want. So it makes for a huge demand to do that dungeoun.(Unless Dungeoun Loot Tables are linked) Level one dungeoun  goes to level one loot table and so on.

    With out instance dungeouns there could be more people that want to do that one dungeoun than it can accomodate..  Guess there could be a limit on how many people in there at ounce but that would be like a crippled instance. Force people to wait until space comes available.  Really have not heard to much one the game mechanics for this.  

    If there was Personal loot then 100 people could go in kill boss everyone  has fair chance for something to drop if anything drops at all but at least will not have to roll against 100 people. But I heard Intrepid Studios is not to excited about personal loot. 

    I prefer instanced dungeouns by the way.  Go to entrance with people and then go to insance.  This could lead to things like I will go and wait outside entrance for seven more people to show up then do it.


    Depending on Game mechinics could go to dungeoun and find out is was just done so it is all empty.  Would be nice to have reset button for dungeoun if it is empty. Or maybe it will happen automatically.
    I think the key to open world Dungeons is having so many spots were people could farm monsters that there is no way everyone would be taken.   If you take a look at the size of the world of UO right now, there are so many spots players can go to farm its easy to crowd one another.   

    Not saying there is not problems with this because there certainly is.  I think the key to reducing the problem is having dozens of farming spots.   In AA there were some areas where you would farm for gear right and hundreds of people where there.   If you had 100 farming spots you likely will not see more than a few people at most of them.   
  • @Consultant I think you are missing the point that yes there is going to be strong competition when it comes to trying to do raids, but with it being open world that means people will camp the dungeons. When I say camp, I mean people like me and some of my friends that intend to kill parties while they are laser focused on killing the boss picking people off.  This will have an effect that might only get the most devoted groups trying to accomplish raids and a lot of people possibly preferring to just get crafted gear to avoid the hassle.
  • Tomoyuki said:
    @Consultant I think you are missing the point that yes there is going to be strong competition when it comes to trying to do raids, but with it being open world that means people will camp the dungeons. When I say camp, I mean people like me and some of my friends that intend to kill parties while they are laser focused on killing the boss picking people off.  This will have an effect that might only get the most devoted groups trying to accomplish raids and a lot of people possibly preferring to just get crafted gear to avoid the hassle.

    Well death penalties and curroption system will deter camping.  You could camp if you want but after the first time you will have curroption and that will make so bounty hunters can kill.

    I could still camp an instance dungeoun with no fast travel(have to go to entrance to do) just could not follow them in.  So have to kill people before they go in dungeoun. 

  • Open world dungeouns could work if they all have the same loot table. If not well the one with the most demand will be done the most or over populated
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Open world dungeouns could work if they all have the same loot table. If not well the one with the most demand will be done the most or over populated.

    I think you are right they not only can work it's working perfectly just need more than one and it must be not like in only dungeons you can get something what you cannot get anywhere else, just maybe with a bit bigger rates. Then always be action in them and no one cries what impossible to get something because can go get somewhere else just takes a bit longer to get it and of Corse be good reminder for players find a guild or make one to put more competitions to no lifers and better guilds.


  • I prefer to have both types of dungeon because of world PvP mainly, I don't feel like being in the middle of a dungeon then some person come and kill us in the middle of a mini boss fight. Making us restart from the beginning.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    People are worrying way too much about people ganking them during boss fights. In games where there is no penalty for death, and fast travel allows you to escape the consequences of your actions, then assholish behavior can be widespread. But we don't have those mechanics from what we have been told.

    For example. Shining Star node has finally advanced to level 5 and a new open world dungeon has opened up. To get to the city stage they need around 500 citizens actively supporting their node through actions that gain resources or exp for the node. Those brave adventurers start to make forays into said dungeon, that has been balanced for 8 man groups. A few nodes over there are some intrepid souls who want to get in on the action. They have heard about the new dungeon, so they get a group together to ride over. They have hatred in their hearts and plan to attack people they see in the dungeon. When they get there after a couple hour ride across unfriendly terrain, they head into the dungeon. They come upon another group from the nodes town and are like "hey, we just wanted to check out this new content." The people from Shining Star agree to let them have fun in their patch. Shining Star people engage a boss. The other group has decided to screw with them and their play and snipe people from distance and ruin the boss attempt. People from Shining Star die incurring the regular penalty for pve death. (leaving corruption mechanics out of this because in most cases they will be fighting back so everyone would be flagged at this point)

    While they are respawning at the nearest point to the dungeon, they are all over citizen chat letting others know they have a group of foreign dicks in their dungeon. Forces mobilize and head on over. In the meantime the original group, now pissed off head back down into the dungeon to give chase. Since they know the names, the mayor has decided to add them to the list of enemies of the node, meaning they are now flagged for attack by any of the nodes citizens. The original group may engage them or wait for reinforcements. They kill the offending group. Offending group will respawn at nearest respawn point. Since it is their home node, the citizens of Shining Star know generally where this is going to happen. So they smack em down again. Offending group incurs even more exp debt. They end up getting killed over and over as they try and make their way out from the anthill they have poked. Since they are not citizens, they have no "safe" area to hide. They have a long ride home back to their node and a substantial exp debt to work off. They are most likely on the enemies of the node list, possibly their whole guild has been blacklisted.

    So, while you may get this a couple times, people are going to learn real quick that being a dick, either at home, or when out travelling will get you curb-stomped. Since there is no random LFG, or port to dungeon, or port to friend planned, even getting to content that isn't under your home nodes control is going to be a risky call unless you have permission from the local powers to be there.

    Now I am sure there are going to be a couple "I'm a Billy Badass pvper, our crew will just roll yours up!" comments coming after this. I bet once testing is over and the system has been tweaked, those claims will also start to subside. PvP is always fun when you are smacking people around, as long as you remember there is always someone better out there coming.
  • Being a WoW player since Closed vanilla beta I really liked WoW when it was more open world. I liked meeting people for raids rather than just teleporting there. It made it more like a living world. I am fine with some instanced dungeons, but prefer a more real world approach to get there i.e. walk or ride a mount there (dungeon finders and battlegrounds helped kill the real world feel).
  • This is starting to sound less  like a fresh idea and more like yet another pvp game
  • Hey guys just wanted to discuss the pros of having instanced PVE. Just some background on me, I’m a Rank One gladiator and multiple times regular gladiator (top .1% and .5% of wow pvp) on world of Warcraft. I’ve also been a MLG champion on Ubisoft’s For Honor, so obviously I’m all about the pvp and competition. 

    I was watching a Bigfrytv video moments ago and he said there was no instanced dungeons. So then other teams and gankers can interrupt your dungeon/raid flow. 

    In addition to my pvp experience I also have some mythic kills (highest difficulty of WoW pve) and over a 2000 m+ dungeon score. Even as a casual pve player this would be so bad if people can camp you while trying to pull bosses and even trash mobs. 

    I get sweaty when I pvp, but when I pve I want to collect gear, shoot the breeze with my friends who aren’t so good at pvp, and just chill. 

    Intrepid, please take it from a highly experienced and decorated pvper, make instanced pve for dungeons and raids.


    *Very excited for your game, you guys are doing great work*
    there will be both instanced and uninstanced dungeons
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    I think there should be a limit on how many people can be in on open world dungeoun. After that number then another instance is formed.  Just to deal with one particular area being over populated.  There are just not enough mobs to go around for everyone unless you have smart game mechanics. 

    Like AI that keeps track of how many people are in dungeoun and adjusts the dungeoun accordingly.  Even Respawning monsters that are near to the party that just entered.  But I think just putting a limit on it would be fine.  Like lets say 3-4 parties (depending on size of dingeoun).  Would still have oppurtunity for interaction without overcrowding.   So that would be 8 people per party so 24 t0 32 people max in one dungeoun.  

    Have not seen any game mechanics to help the everyone doing the same quest or every one wanting to do same dungeoun. So.....
  • I dont see what all the fuss is about here.  This is part of an open world game, meaningfull pvp and player politics.   How bout you fight for your xp spot?  If you cant hold it then you dont deserve the primary xp/farm spots imo.  If your clan isnt big enough, make an alliance with other clans.   geeze, kids today want everything easy mode...thanks WoW
  • I'm actually excited for open-world dungeons.

    - It makes more sense if you think about it realistically.
    - The devs have said that there will be penalties of some kind for constant griefing. What those penalties are I believe are still in development?
    - Plus, a little added PvP while you're trying to get material for an awesome new armor set you can craft sounds fun. 

  • We don't know much about these systems yet, the idea of open world dungeons is very appealing. It appears most of us are still thinking of dungeons as linear and small and that doesn't have to be the case in ashes. Being open world allows you to have a variety in the dungeon. Path A runs into 2 bosses. Path B 4 bosses and path C 0 and is the quickest route to the end and the most challenging boss. 

    Not saying that's how it is but the option is out there. You may be able to clear the first 2 tunnels as a party of 3, you may need 8 for the next 4 tunnels and you could need multiple parties to "clear" it. If done properly open world dungeons are far more rewarding than instanced dungeons you run 3 times a week. 
  • The hubs and I liked the concept of this game enough to invest in the kickstarter, way back when. We did this, even though there are gameplay decisions being made that run counter to our "preferred" way of playing. 

    This, I believe, is one of those things, but it's also one of those things that we've taken a wait-and-see attitude on. One thing I am confident of is that the guys at IS care enough about player enjoyment that, if they see someone(s) camping dungeons, etc, in order to gank, or to otherwise interfere with player enjoyment, they're going to do something about it. I don't mean random PvP experiences, I mean repeated behavior.

    It's impossible, at this time, to fully appreciate how all the elements of this game will work together to create what they're trying to create. I believe that conjecturing, right now, on what absolutely won't or will work is vain, at the least.

    And as has been posited above, please understand that there are very many of us who're willing to step into unfamiliar or uncomfortable waters, in order to enjoy a game that seems overall appealing to us. The very reason this game seeps appealing to so many of us is its difference from what has come before. I get that you're accustomed to all-instanced dungeons, OP, but before you start crying doom for everything that can go wrong, how 'bout we sit back and wait to see what can go right?
  • People keep worrying about being Ganked.   Hello this might happen however it will not be a thing that should happen all the time.   You only will drop a percentage of your crafting mats when you are killing in PVP.  If you have none or very little if you are in an open world dungeon then what is the point of someone killing you?   They will get a Karma penalty and if they get too much of a negative they risk having you loot their corpse for everything that is on them.   

    So why if I am a PVP player would I grief players in an open world dungeon when I risk losing my gear and everything on me just to kill you?   If you are fighting a boss and that boss starts attacking me after you died I might die allowing you to loot my stuff.   

    While YES if you are being a dick and controlling a boss spawn I could kill you it really is not worth it because the loot table in the game will be spread out throughout the world.  Not based on 1 boss.   What would be worth it if I PKed you while you were in a Dungeon is if you were a known jerk on the server and I wanted to geif you like others.  I wouldnt get a negative karma because you would be flagged Red where I get no karma loss.  
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