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Can we sell game time
hello, I was just curious since this is subscription based if we could buy game time with in game money, and secondly if we could sell game time for ign money or even real money like some other games.
this would be a fantastic feature.
this would be a fantastic feature.
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As for selling it for IGN money or real money flat no and I can't think of any successful mmo's that allowed that ever.
I suppose the goal would be to buy a year at a supposed per month discount and then sell it monthly to make a profit.
I can understand buying a month, something happening and realizing you can't play the last 3 weeks of the month, and wanting a way to cash out. That would, imo, only make sense if IS was buying that back from you at a pro-rated cost. But then everyone would want to sell back every minute of the month they didn't use so...
As for those that can't afford the price. It sucks, I know. Unfortunately being a capitalist society, those that can't afford things often go without. Somehow those things still exist.
I believe most people CAN afford it but they don't want to waste money. it's really expensive when u think about it. That's 180$ a year. 3 AAA games. And even more if u get discounts. U can buy the whole Witcher series from Steam atm with 60$.
Dual universe is also going to allow game time selling, because not allowing it would push away too many players, and make world feel less live. 1 person who doesn't buy sub with real money probably plays 3 times more than 1 who buys(they have more time and less money). So let's say for example there would be 10k players who want to pay sub for real money and 10k who would be willing to play if sub could be bought with in game money. Population of the game effectively drops from 40k -> 10k if u don't allow paying sub with in game money and vice versa rises 4 times if u allow them to buy game time with in game money from richer ppl. Eve, WoW, Albion, Dual universe, countless game studios, know this. And that's why every1 allows it nowdays. It's too easy for "poorer" people to just jump games if it feels too expensive for them. And by far the most important quality for MMO is the amount of players that plays it.
I'm not sure any game except maybe WoW(Even they allow game time selling for gold now) can survive with this strict "no p2w" policy for long. I never myself really considered selling game time for in game money p2w. Or maybe just slighty. But the advantage of much larger player base is worth it even if few random whales have unlimited supply of gear to lose in PvP.
Just something to think about before rising the pitchforks against all types of p2w imo.
1) Q: Can I buy Sub with In Game Gold?
A: I honeslty don't know there has been no mention of this feature You should ask this on the next Livestream.
2) Q: Can I sell subs in exchange for Cash or In Game Gold?
A: No since this would allow people to turn Cash into Gold and that's considered P2W.
I understand the comparison of 3 AAA games per 1 year sub and in general (in my estimation - as always depending on the "how much you play on average" level) get maybe 3-6 months of gameplay out of 3 AAA games depending on if/how/when I replay. So in my value ratio 180 is not a bad value for the year of gameplay. Especially so if you do play quite regularly though naturally devaluing a bit the less you play.
The first usual method is for player B to act as a intermediary between Player A (guy who can't/won't pay real life cash for his sub) and the Company.
Player B buys the Token, Apex, Plex, ETC from The Company for the standard sub fee.
Player B then sells Player A the Token, Apex, Plex for in game gold.
This seems like it benefits everyone. The company still gets money, Player A gets his sub time. Player B gets in game gold. Win/Win/Win right?
No.
Player B can be one of 3 types of people
1) A player who doesn't have a lot of free time in game, but has a good job/disposal income. He spends a modesty amount each month selling game time to people so he can play the game without having to deal with making in game gold.
2) A player who makes a ton of in-game gold and then ends up buying up all the Apex, Plex, etc and controls the market on them. This continues to force the price up and then people get upset because "I can't afford to play" They then have all the gold they need.
3) Swiper/Whale/P2Wer These people have no problem dropping $1,000+ on a game (hell I know $25,000 - $50,000 swipers) They then end up with the best gear in the fastest time and they usually are people of poor morale character who ruin the game for other people.
Now can you buy a sub for in-game gold. I'm assuming you mean from the company?
This has never been mentioned, but I can basically say it like this.
Probably won't happen.
As "The Company" Why would I want to sell you sub-time for in game gold? I don't make any money that way. You are a cost for me. This would then open up even more abuse and a doorway for gold sellers.
Even if they wanted to do this AND THEY HAVEN'T EVER A SINGLE TIME SAID THEY WOULD WANT TO DO THIS they'd have to do is the average player could pay for their sub in 50% of the average monthly play time or people would never be able to sustain it.
If they did that, then Gold Sellers/RMT Slave monkeys/Bots, etc would have accounts farming 20 hours a day selling gold.
The Sub Model is what keeps people out of the game who don't have a vested interested in the game.
Some 25,000+ people at this point are ok with the sub-model. Nobody is saying you have to be ok with the sub-model in general, but you have to be ok with it to play *this* game.
@Jahlon You should at least try to read closely to Dokuwan's post as the company does make money as you have to purchase the GTC from them. Also you misunderstand the fundamental reason why people rmt, which is to make real world cash. Can't make money if everything stays in house.
As for the sub model, in all honesty I wouldn't care either way. But so many people for some reason is under the impression that subs are 100% viable. But from what I have seen, that is far from certain and if Steven is doing this as a pure 100% passion project and could care less about profits, then he has nothing to worry about. But if he needs to recoup investments well free to play is a nice way to go as well.
Here, let me repost with the important words bolded:
"The first usual method is for player B to act as a intermediary between Player A (guy who can't/won't pay real life cash for his sub) and the Company.
Player B buys the Token, Apex, Plex, ETC from The Company for the standard sub fee.
Player B then sells Player A the Token, Apex, Plex for in game gold.
This seems like it benefits everyone. The company still gets money, Player A gets his sub time. Player B gets in game gold. Win/Win/Win right?"
So, I've already said, that the company makes money in the first example of selling the Game time to a person who then sells it to the player base. I then told you why all these things are a bad idea.
Second, you clearly didn't read down to the point where I explained that when you allow people to pay for sub time in a sub game with in game currency, it opens up the door for RMTers who ...wait let me cut and paste it for you
"If they did that, then Gold Sellers/RMT Slave monkeys/Bots, etc would have accounts farming 20 hours a day selling gold. "
So yes, I clearly understand how RMT works.
And are sub games 100% viable?
Yes they are.
Why did sub games open up into other avenues? Because of corporate greed. If they can sell 100,000 token, apex, plex, etc of course they are going to do it. They don't care who gets it, who uses it, etc. They just sold 100,000 units. That's money.
Why are many games moving away from F2P models? Because of the sharp decline in MMO game populations.
Why are the game populations declining.... wait for it.
Experience quality declining.
Why is the experience declining?
Because people who pay to win (IE those who get rich selling game time) ruin the experience for other people either deliberately or as a natural course of being better geared. I'm not Pay to Win in Archeage, but i'm in the top 100 geared people for my server. Do I kill people with 1/2 my gear score? No. I don't find sport in it. Do I see it happen every day? Yes I do. Do I bring people to Archeage every day? Not anymore. Because I can't. Because P2W is toxic.
Secondly, people who don't invest real world money into a product don't have a real world attachment to it. Putting 5000 hours into a game and being a walking douchebag is your right, and you aren't going to give a damn if the server or even the game dies because all you have invested in it is time. Now, when you have a few hundred dollars of sub time invest in a game AND time, you are going to have a vested interest in the survival of the server.
As an Eve Player, I can tell you the economy of the game was much better and much stronger before the introduction of PLEX. Yes, they sold GTCs in a round about fashion for a long time, but once PLEX game into the game, it changed everything. Want that
As an Archeage Player, I can tell you that APEX is the governing standard of the market.
I know 2 AA players who dropped $20,000 or more in the first 3 months the game was out. Guess what, that player and their guilds were dominant forces in the game on my server.
I can also tell you that my original server suffered for it for 3 years because the population never recovered.
Now onto this point
1 person who doesn't buy sub with real money probably plays 3 times more than 1 who buys(they have more time and less money)
^ First of all, 57.7% of all statistics on the internet are made up. Don't believe me? Go google it.
Seriously, this is a WTF are you smoking in that crack pipe because its not crack statement. People who don't buy the sub with real money probably play 3 times more than 1 buys. They have more time and less money?
I'm not going to give you x3. I'm going to give you x2. I'll give you x2 as a gift to your argument just so we can get it off the ground.
Ok, so Poor Johnny can't pay for his sub, so he has to grind out his whatever X units of gold for his sub. Now, the only game I can talk about with numbers right now is Archeage. So, it takes about 14 hours for Johnny to make enough gold to buy his two Apex. That doesn't seem like a lot of time. But that means during those 14 hours Johnny isn't part of the world, he's a worker ant scrambling for his sub time.
Now, when you get to this part of the argument "Population of the game effectively drops from 40k -> 10k " This is just a horrible illusion of smoke and mirrors.
Johnny is only 1 person. He doesn't triple into 3 people. He doesn't make the server population jump by 3. So it makes the server population of 20K into 10K. That's what it does. Not 40K not 30K not 3 zebras and a monkey and Johnny. Just 1 guy.
So to this statement: And by far the most important quality for MMO is the amount of players that plays it.
No, the most important quality for an MMO isn't just the "amount" of people who play it. Its the quality of the people who play it. If it was only the amount of people, companies would just want all the big streamers to come to their game. But streamers hop games based on their audience. Also MORE people doesn't make for a better experience if all those people are jerk-offs.
Eve Online? Lets talk Goonswarm. Lots of players, didn't bring anything positive to the game for most people.
Finally on the point of "I believe most people CAN afford it but they don't want to waste money."
If you don't think the game that you play for between 56 and 130+ hours a month is worth a sub-fee, then you must not like the game. And if you don't like the game why are you playing it?
I spent more on lunch in 1 day then my Ashes sub will cost me. Hell, I like the idea of the sub fee and the cosmetic shop so much I'll probably buy skins just because I want to support the company.
So that's a lot to digest right there, but I've been studying this very topic for years.
However, I love a good discussion and I have an open mind. Put together an argument. Show me how game time can be sold for in game currency and how it can be not pay to win.
"Why did sub games open up into other avenues? Because of corporate greed. If they can sell 100,000 token, apex, plex, etc of course they are going to do it. They don't care who gets it, who uses it, etc. They just sold 100,000 units. That's money."
That is also 100,000 months of game time, people playing their game and game not dying. It's not corporate greed, it's survival in a hard competition to retain decent playerbase.
"Why are the game populations declining.... wait for it.
Experience quality declining.
Why is the experience declining?
Because people who pay to win (IE those who get rich selling game time) ruin the experience for other people either deliberately or as a natural course of being better geared. I'm not Pay to Win in Archeage, but i'm in the top 100 geared people for my server. Do I kill people with 1/2 my gear score? No. I don't find sport in it. Do I see it happen every day? Yes I do. Do I bring people to Archeage every day? Not anymore. Because I can't. Because P2W is toxic."
Using Archeage(the most p2w game ever?) as an example is wrong. Selling game time has little to none p2w impact in games where u can loot ur opponents like in Albion Online. I'm not sure to what extent u can loot players in AOC however.
"Secondly, people who don't invest real world money into a product don't have a real world attachment to it. Putting 5000 hours into a game and being a walking douchebag is your right, and you aren't going to give a damn if the server or even the game dies because all you have invested in it is time. Now, when you have a few hundred dollars of sub time invest in a game AND time, you are going to have a vested interest in the survival of the server. "
I'd rather have ppl playing the game because it's fun and not because sunk cost fallacy.
"Seriously, this is a WTF are you smoking in that crack pipe because its not crack statement. People who don't buy the sub with real money probably play 3 times more than 1 buys. They have more time and less money?
I'm not going to give you x3. I'm going to give you x2. I'll give you x2 as a gift to your argument just so we can get it off the ground.
Ok, so Poor Johnny can't pay for his sub, so he has to grind out his whatever X units of gold for his sub. Now, the only game I can talk about with numbers right now is Archeage. So, it takes about 14 hours for Johnny to make enough gold to buy his two Apex. That doesn't seem like a lot of time. But that means during those 14 hours Johnny isn't part of the world, he's a worker ant scrambling for his sub time.
Now, when you get to this part of the argument "Population of the game effectively drops from 40k -> 10k " This is just a horrible illusion of smoke and mirrors.
Johnny is only 1 person. He doesn't triple into 3 people. He doesn't make the server population jump by 3. So it makes the server population of 20K into 10K. That's what it does. Not 40K not 30K not 3 zebras and a monkey and Johnny. Just 1 guy."
That 3x wasn't some accurate statistic just an educated quess, but that doesn't invalidate the argument. Johnny does effectively raise the population more than some1 who doesn't play the game as much and he is part of the world when he is mining ore or whatever to pay his sub. ("For an MMO, it’s important that the world is active and there are lots of people to interact with. The metric for this is “concurrent users” (CCU). It measures how many players are online in the game at the same time, hence measuring the actual in-game activity.") That's a quote from Albion Online dev. 1 Player who plays 12 hours a day raises the games CCU more than 11 players who play 1 hour a day.
"So to this statement: And by far the most important quality for MMO is the amount of players that plays it.
No, the most important quality for an MMO isn't just the "amount" of people who play it. Its the quality of the people who play it. If it was only the amount of people, companies would just want all the big streamers to come to their game. But streamers hop games based on their audience. Also MORE people doesn't make for a better experience if all those people are jerk-offs."
Well first of all OFC ALL COMPANIES WANT ALL THE STREAMERS PLAYING THEIR GAME LOL. And yeah they hop games based on their audience. More population causes more population to come, and less population causes the few people playing the game leave too because the "game is dying". That's what i meant with "quality", wrong choice of a word yea. It causes a snowball effect. High population attracts more people and low population scares people off. Especially for a strict sub game, nobody wants to invest money into something that's going to die soon. When u start an mmo do u select high pop server or low pop server to make ur character on? Also if u've played on wow private servers u know server population is the reason why big servers stay big and small servers stay small even if they are much higher quality than the big servers.
I'm personally very much against this as it will artificially inflate the supply of money within the ingame economy.
If I had infinite game time as indicated, and I could sell it off the end of my sub time, theoretically I could sell as much game time as I wanted. Unless IS sets a number to what they consider a "life time." Still, it would be likely older players could sell a lot, while younger players wouldn't feel like they were really getting a life time out of it.
The other issue is Eve has been stagnating and the last report forgot which month showed production continuing unabated, yet the destruction of ships has been lowering, which was in winter notorious for a lot of activity. Eve needs war and without it is just ends up stagnated.
Also, I am looking forward to reading your paper and topic in regards to mercenaries.
How does CCP have 0 power in Eve?
Not sure where you got your numbers, but Eve continues to be strong in its 15th year of release come this May.
Just this very hour while i'm writing this 286 ships were blown up. That's pretty good considering its early AM US.
This past week 183.91 Billion isk in ships was lost from just the top 6 expensive ships.
Remember the Bloodbath of B-R5RB where $300,000-$330,000 USD in ships were destroyed? How do a lot of people afford replacements? They simply sell PLEX. Many players I know decide that's it easier to give up 2-3 hours of pay from their jobs in order to get right back to PvPing.