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Class Balance

ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
in Ashes of Creation Design
Hey guys just wanted to bring up the talking point of class balance which is essentially where the game will live and die. Devs, I really hope you listen to the feedback we provide to all Alphas and Betas because if anyone wants to see this game succeed I do. Playing competitively at the highest level of WoW has turned into rock paper scissors. For example I play a retribution paladin in 3v3, I finished over 2800 rating last season (top .5%). An arcane mage is my counter, however one would think with superior game play I could still over come my opponent. This is simply not true, an arcane mage could play with his/her feet and still dumpster me. In most games, against counters, one can win but they have less room for error.

My hope is that the pvp for AoC WILL have counters, but counters that aren't unbeatable. I want to know that if I make pro play after pro play, and while my opponent is drooling and running in circles I can still win. 

Metas will always exist in the game, that's for certain. I hope you guys can deliver a system that will allow all comps, and all strategized set ups to be successful. Thank you for taking the time to read my post. Can't wait to play. 

Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    They expressed as lately as the last livestream their views on the impact of balancing and their plans for it. They have removed a major stumbling block for themselves by not having separate stat systems for pve and pvp. Now it is down to testing over the next two years to tweak numbers and exploits like stun-locking, etc.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    That’s welcome news. I think have counters and being the counter is necessary and fun, but it would suck if they made it to where no matter how many plans you make you still lose just cause you fought against class X. Winning while having less room for error is very rewarding. Winning/losing Rock Paper Scissors matches sucks.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Yes we are all for game balance but there will be always classes that will be more suited for Arenas.  Really best thing to hope for is not have one class too over powered.

    Unfortunately at high rated play 2800 it is so competitive that even a small advantage will turn the tides and make for a win. So It is really really hard to level the playing field at high rated play.  That ret 2800 hundred rating could be more of an accomplishment than lets say some overpowered class or spec  gettind same rating. Cause it takes just that much more skill.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    UnknownSystemError said:
    They have removed a major stumbling block for themselves by not having separate stat systems for pve and pvp.
    WoW made a statement years ago that they won't seperate pvp and pve stats for abilities because it's too much to ask from the player to read 2 different versions of the same skill.
    Seperating or not seperating depends on the game and it's systems. WoW in it's form should have seperated it. They would have avoided breaking pvp to balance pve and vice versa with every patch cycle.
    Ashes has no set combat system yet that we know of.
    Since they don't want specific PvP/PvE stats tho I can see one (two) possible outcomes.
    1. We just don't deal a lot of damage in the first place. So basically the hp pool of the Monster measured in player-hp is the balancing factor of pve.
    (2. We have a lot of hp and monsters hit especially hard.)

    Number 2 is practically not viable tho since it would instead put healers light years ahead in power and would be the WoW equivallent of fucking up your balance one way or another.
    Whatever kind of systems they go with they should be ready to compromise where they need to to have it balanced not the other way around.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    People will always find some sort of loop hole in the system so I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of 'op' builds in the early days of release and even after that, honestly to me those things make the game slightly more enjoyable :3
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Every game is going to have that "meta" or "flavor if the week" build. I haven't seen a competitive game yet that's had classes and avoided that.it just more apparent in others. 

    What I see AoC doing is giving you reasons to being certain classes with you based on their utility skills. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    It is true that every competitive game has its flavour of the week but some of the good developers actually charge it up to help keep the game a bit more fresh. 
    I don't mind one class being stronger then most others, it's when they stay stronger then the others and never get changed that annoys me.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    You dont need class balance period.   There is no way you can balance more than a handful of classes.    This has been learned over many years of MMORPG game play.   Some classes will be better in some situations than others.  For example a Rogue gets behind a mage and gets the jump on the mage should not be balanced so that the Mage can get away everytime.   If the Mage does not have the skills to get away then they should be beaten by the Rogue.   The only way you can have class Balance is by having no classes at all.   

    There is Class tuning of classes strengths and weaknesses but this is not Class Balance.   Just like if I play a Ranger and keep a Rogue at max distance and pick the Rogue off with arrows, the only want to balance this fight out is by having no strengths and weaknesses then why do you need classes?   Look at Sea of Thieves and you will see Balance, its because everyone is the same.  Skill takes over.  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I believe the developers want to balance around group pvp and so this means that every class is going to be useful in certain circumstances. The issue I take with class balancing is that it would inevitably ruin a lot of classes killing the game for some people, as they  are either forced to reroll or just get griefed in pvp. Too many people complaining that it isn't fair that a mage is losing to a rogue or a ranger is losing to a tank we need buffs and they need nerfs.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Helzbelz said:
    You dont need class balance period.   There is no way you can balance more than a handful of classes.    This has been learned over many years of MMORPG game play.   Some classes will be better in some situations than others.  For example a Rogue gets behind a mage and gets the jump on the mage should not be balanced so that the Mage can get away everytime.   If the Mage does not have the skills to get away then they should be beaten by the Rogue.   The only way you can have class Balance is by having no classes at all.   

    There is Class tuning of classes strengths and weaknesses but this is not Class Balance.   Just like if I play a Ranger and keep a Rogue at max distance and pick the Rogue off with arrows, the only want to balance this fight out is by having no strengths and weaknesses then why do you need classes?   Look at Sea of Thieves and you will see Balance, its because everyone is the same.  Skill takes over.  
    A game needs some sort of balance or people will not play, if your guarding the caravan on your own and get jumped by 3 people and you own them because your class is just that much better then every one else.... No one would ever take part in caravan raiding. 
    There must always be a balance if not then you will see a huge imbalance in classes picked.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Falmin said:
    Helzbelz said:
    You dont need class balance period.   There is no way you can balance more than a handful of classes.    This has been learned over many years of MMORPG game play.   Some classes will be better in some situations than others.  For example a Rogue gets behind a mage and gets the jump on the mage should not be balanced so that the Mage can get away everytime.   If the Mage does not have the skills to get away then they should be beaten by the Rogue.   The only way you can have class Balance is by having no classes at all.   

    There is Class tuning of classes strengths and weaknesses but this is not Class Balance.   Just like if I play a Ranger and keep a Rogue at max distance and pick the Rogue off with arrows, the only want to balance this fight out is by having no strengths and weaknesses then why do you need classes?   Look at Sea of Thieves and you will see Balance, its because everyone is the same.  Skill takes over.  
    A game needs some sort of balance or people will not play, if your guarding the caravan on your own and get jumped by 3 people and you own them because your class is just that much better then every one else.... No one would ever take part in caravan raiding. 
    There must always be a balance if not then you will see a huge imbalance in classes picked.
    I agree with Falmin, you certainly do need class balance. Otherwise it undermines certain activities within the game as more and more people switch to the over-powered class. I remember playing a Chloromancer in RIFT on release, as a mage-healer players were already dubious of them being as good as a cleric-healer. Unfortunately this proved to be the case and not many players could solo heal a dungeon with one which in turn drove people away from the class and stopped people accepting them into a group. In the end Trion balanced them against other cleric healers and improved some of their healing by around 20% - 30% with new spells and buffs to the old ones.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Does anyone think they’ll balance classes around 4v4, BG’s, or raids and what not?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Would like to say that class balance is not easy even with the best intentions.  Companies have a pvp balance department for e-sports and still miss the mark.

    Wit 64 classes think it is going to be a nightmare but I am sure they will do the best they can.  Really no fualt on the dev team but I think when it launches since the game is brand new there will be lots of issues but think it would be fair to give them the time to deal with such issues.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I hope that the augmentation the secondary class provides makes for a wide array of comps in 4v4. That’s what pvp should be balanced around. It would be so fresh and fun from a competitive ladder climbing stand point to go into the queue session like “ there are 50 different comps we can play better be on my toes and check my notes”. Whereas at high end wow arena (gladiator range) it’s like oh boy another lock team how boring. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Balancing classes will obviously be hard but there is no need to make every class perfectly equal, some will excel in pve others at pvp etc. As long as they will fix up anything that makes a single class stand out to the point you can say with absolute confidence that 'this' is the strongest class, then everything else should be good.

    It's best to simply wait and let the game come out, there will probably be some minor issues with class balance at the beginning but it will be cleared up pretty quickly in my opinion.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Op builds , Meta , Strategies , Groups . This will all be very important information and it's too early to worry about a perfectly balanced game. They will do their best to balance it before release :mrgreen:

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Falmin said:
    Helzbelz said:
    You dont need class balance period.   There is no way you can balance more than a handful of classes.    This has been learned over many years of MMORPG game play.   Some classes will be better in some situations than others.  For example a Rogue gets behind a mage and gets the jump on the mage should not be balanced so that the Mage can get away everytime.   If the Mage does not have the skills to get away then they should be beaten by the Rogue.   The only way you can have class Balance is by having no classes at all.   

    There is Class tuning of classes strengths and weaknesses but this is not Class Balance.   Just like if I play a Ranger and keep a Rogue at max distance and pick the Rogue off with arrows, the only want to balance this fight out is by having no strengths and weaknesses then why do you need classes?   Look at Sea of Thieves and you will see Balance, its because everyone is the same.  Skill takes over.  
    A game needs some sort of balance or people will not play, if your guarding the caravan on your own and get jumped by 3 people and you own them because your class is just that much better then every one else.... No one would ever take part in caravan raiding. 
    There must always be a balance if not then you will see a huge imbalance in classes picked.
    The problem is every time there is a class balance argument its about A class should be exactly like class B in every way, and B should be exactly like class C in every way.  Then you have no classes everything is the same and boring as hell.   There is a difference between strength and weakness balance between classes and making all the classes exactly the same.   IE WOW.  

    If again you take a Rogue and Ranger and they are of equal gear level and do equal damage in their builds then, its players skills that should determine who wins.   If the Ranger keeps the Rogue from hitting them the Ranger should win, if the Rogue gets the jump on the Ranger the Rogue should win.  Skill and using your strengths against another weakness should be the focus of the balance.   Not making sure every situation is balanced.  Maybe the Rogue is much better geared and the Ranger plays like crap or vice visa.   

    Focus on making sure the classes play as they should and that should be good enough.  O and BTW you will always see a huge imbalance in the way classes are picked.  Just like a SWG and PVP and Class balance there was just fine outside the Jedi, but the Jedi was a permadeath thing so they had to be OP.   Your pistoler had no chance vs a creature handler.  There is Class inbalance, but my commando destroyed a creature handler.  

    When you have more than a handful of classes and ways to play you will have imbalance.  
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