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Viewpoint from a fan after watching the 02/09 stream
Disclaimer: I'm very aware that the game is in pre-alpha. I would also ask more hotheaded and/or fanatic...fans to keep it civil.
Hey there, y'all! Even though I'm not very present here, I've been following AoC since Jan/2017 and I'm currently one of the translators on the Brazilian fansite. I've been playing MMOs since 2003, and perhaps had a different experience than some of the folks looking forward to AoC when it comes to MMO gaming. Please consider what I've said and will say not as me rambling about myself but rather contextualizing what I've seen as an MMO player so that my viewpoints are solid.
Being from Brazil, the MMOs I played might have been different from those your typical american in the early-mid 2000s. I see people talking about games such as DAoC, Darkfall, Shadowbane, and SWG, which are games I had frankly never heard of at the peak of their success, and don't really wish to have played after seeing what they were like. Other than WoW, which spread like wildfire, my country always took to Asian MMOs rather than American ones. One of the very first to actually have servers in Brazil and present local payment and language options was Ragnarok Online, which opened the doors to a plethora of Asian MMOs that garnered a lot of success here (though they were rarely localized), such as MU and Lineage 2.
These first experiences with MMOs shaped how I view and enjoy the games I play and my expectations of them. You see, these asian MMOs I mentioned had fundamental differences from the ones American studios were making at the time. One such is the combat, which has always seemed more fluid and action focused in Asian games than in American games, as the latter focuses more on strategy and careful use of skills. A simple comparison between, say, RO and EQ2, will quickly show that. Other differences included core progression systems (improving gear vs dropping better gear), and importance of story in the game (very little of that in Asian MMOs), but the one I want to focus on is combat.
I've been watching some videos on a youtube channel by nerdSlayer where he shows the development cycles of these American games, including their rise and fall. And the footage I see is generally appaling. It's like those games expected their players to let frankly shitty combat slide because of the other areas in which the game did well, such as player/gear progression, PvP, and role playing aspects of the game. Push forward to 2013-16, and we see Asian games entering the American market in the form of TerA, Blade and Soul, Black Desert. Compare these with American MMOs from around the same time, such as SWTOR, ESO, TSW, and the same trend continues. Asian MMOs break boundaries with their combat fluidity (while, to be fair, thoroughly lacking in a decent story and lore) while other games seem stuck to the same old, boring style that should've died in 2005.
Now, I played all of these games. Some of them for hundreds of hours. And the problems are the same on both sides. SWTOR and TSW had incredible storytelling (TSW in particular with some of the best quest design I've seen in MMOs) but were hampered by their lackluster combat. In these games, I relished in the few moments when I was fed the story of the characters and the zones I was in throughout the quest, and hated every single second I had to spend in combat to get there. A game such as Black Desert, on the other hand, gives me zero story at all, instead sending me to kill hundreds of thousands of enemies to level up. If I had to do that in TSW, I'd have killed myself. But BDO's combat is so fluid and well-crafted that I have spent over 10-12 hours killing the same mobs in the same place and not minded at all. It was fun.
The point I'm trying to get to is this: the current generation of MMOs around here is following the same trend as their predecessors. The combat is bland, lackluster, boring, reminiscent of a 2004 game. Life is Feudal is like that, Chronicles of Elyria is like that, Pantheon is like that, and Darkfall: Rise of Agon is a complete joke. Crowfall sort of saved the bunch but they just announced that the game will be paid, have a subscription with clear advantages, and a microtransaction store on top of that, so fuck those guys. And finally, unfortunately, AoC seems to be headed down the same sad path.
This is a core element of the game and I highly doubt it will change. I just hope they realize the middle ground (having tab-target and a fake action combat) is a steaming pile of shit and focus on a single system. If it's to be Tab-Targeting, then so be it, but do it well. Make it incredibly comfortable. There are many reasons why people still play WoW 14 years later, and the combat is one of them. Even if it is tab-targeting, it is fluid and intuitive. It works well. It's the one MMO I've managed to play after quitting BDO because the combat simply feels right.
What I saw today was not fluid, nor did it look fun. Adventuring with friends is hella fun, but if I have a clunky combat system pulling me down, I'll do it elsewhere. Please, do not become what your predecessors were. Do not rely on your other systems, however incredible, as an excuse for a horrible combat experience. Because the way I see it, combat is the most important element of a game like this, as it is intrinsic to many other elements. Caravans will not be fun if combat sucks. PvE will not be fun if combat sucks. Sieges will not be fun if combat sucks. The awesome node system, complex crafting, freedom of play might hold out for a while, but the shadow cast by the excruciating experience of bad combat will eventually loom over it all.
Just ask those other games.
Hey there, y'all! Even though I'm not very present here, I've been following AoC since Jan/2017 and I'm currently one of the translators on the Brazilian fansite. I've been playing MMOs since 2003, and perhaps had a different experience than some of the folks looking forward to AoC when it comes to MMO gaming. Please consider what I've said and will say not as me rambling about myself but rather contextualizing what I've seen as an MMO player so that my viewpoints are solid.
Being from Brazil, the MMOs I played might have been different from those your typical american in the early-mid 2000s. I see people talking about games such as DAoC, Darkfall, Shadowbane, and SWG, which are games I had frankly never heard of at the peak of their success, and don't really wish to have played after seeing what they were like. Other than WoW, which spread like wildfire, my country always took to Asian MMOs rather than American ones. One of the very first to actually have servers in Brazil and present local payment and language options was Ragnarok Online, which opened the doors to a plethora of Asian MMOs that garnered a lot of success here (though they were rarely localized), such as MU and Lineage 2.
These first experiences with MMOs shaped how I view and enjoy the games I play and my expectations of them. You see, these asian MMOs I mentioned had fundamental differences from the ones American studios were making at the time. One such is the combat, which has always seemed more fluid and action focused in Asian games than in American games, as the latter focuses more on strategy and careful use of skills. A simple comparison between, say, RO and EQ2, will quickly show that. Other differences included core progression systems (improving gear vs dropping better gear), and importance of story in the game (very little of that in Asian MMOs), but the one I want to focus on is combat.
I've been watching some videos on a youtube channel by nerdSlayer where he shows the development cycles of these American games, including their rise and fall. And the footage I see is generally appaling. It's like those games expected their players to let frankly shitty combat slide because of the other areas in which the game did well, such as player/gear progression, PvP, and role playing aspects of the game. Push forward to 2013-16, and we see Asian games entering the American market in the form of TerA, Blade and Soul, Black Desert. Compare these with American MMOs from around the same time, such as SWTOR, ESO, TSW, and the same trend continues. Asian MMOs break boundaries with their combat fluidity (while, to be fair, thoroughly lacking in a decent story and lore) while other games seem stuck to the same old, boring style that should've died in 2005.
Now, I played all of these games. Some of them for hundreds of hours. And the problems are the same on both sides. SWTOR and TSW had incredible storytelling (TSW in particular with some of the best quest design I've seen in MMOs) but were hampered by their lackluster combat. In these games, I relished in the few moments when I was fed the story of the characters and the zones I was in throughout the quest, and hated every single second I had to spend in combat to get there. A game such as Black Desert, on the other hand, gives me zero story at all, instead sending me to kill hundreds of thousands of enemies to level up. If I had to do that in TSW, I'd have killed myself. But BDO's combat is so fluid and well-crafted that I have spent over 10-12 hours killing the same mobs in the same place and not minded at all. It was fun.
The point I'm trying to get to is this: the current generation of MMOs around here is following the same trend as their predecessors. The combat is bland, lackluster, boring, reminiscent of a 2004 game. Life is Feudal is like that, Chronicles of Elyria is like that, Pantheon is like that, and Darkfall: Rise of Agon is a complete joke. Crowfall sort of saved the bunch but they just announced that the game will be paid, have a subscription with clear advantages, and a microtransaction store on top of that, so fuck those guys. And finally, unfortunately, AoC seems to be headed down the same sad path.
This is a core element of the game and I highly doubt it will change. I just hope they realize the middle ground (having tab-target and a fake action combat) is a steaming pile of shit and focus on a single system. If it's to be Tab-Targeting, then so be it, but do it well. Make it incredibly comfortable. There are many reasons why people still play WoW 14 years later, and the combat is one of them. Even if it is tab-targeting, it is fluid and intuitive. It works well. It's the one MMO I've managed to play after quitting BDO because the combat simply feels right.
What I saw today was not fluid, nor did it look fun. Adventuring with friends is hella fun, but if I have a clunky combat system pulling me down, I'll do it elsewhere. Please, do not become what your predecessors were. Do not rely on your other systems, however incredible, as an excuse for a horrible combat experience. Because the way I see it, combat is the most important element of a game like this, as it is intrinsic to many other elements. Caravans will not be fun if combat sucks. PvE will not be fun if combat sucks. Sieges will not be fun if combat sucks. The awesome node system, complex crafting, freedom of play might hold out for a while, but the shadow cast by the excruciating experience of bad combat will eventually loom over it all.
Just ask those other games.
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Comments
That being said, I disagree about what fun combat is. I do not like BDO or Blade and Soul's combat. They are not fun to me. (Tera is alright though). But I know there are a lot of people who do enjoy those styles of combat like yourself.
Yeah I am sure when Intrepid decides to test combat they will be working on improving it's fluidity and overall feel, but as of now they are just testing to see if the game will run properly. I am looking forward to seeing how they flesh out their hybrid combat and testing it for myself.
Personally I am not a fan of Asian MMO's or their combat, for me it's all way too animated and over the top. I would prefer something toned down and something that feels more like an actual combat as opposed to a scene from Naruto, Dragon Ball, or even any of the recent FF games. Asian MMO's are REALLY good at story, and every once in awhile I will play one for a week or two just for that, but that's it.
If we keep going back to doing things other MMO's are doing we will never see anything different or risk "failing forward."
Again, I do agree with you. If Ashes combat is released in 2 years after a couple Alphas and Betas and it is still clunky, slow, and poorly animated IS will have failed. I would like to give them the benefit of doubt by saying I don't think they are actually heading that way.
I have no doubt it will change for the better.
As you stated yourself, it is pre-alpha, I remain hopeful that progress will continue to be made and we will get our monies worth.
In all seriousness, I like your writing style. It’s like you’re writing the dialogue for a YouTube script. I read it in DeathProxy’s voice just naturally.
In the end though, you seem to make the presumption that "action combat is better" as a blanket statement for everyone, and for every type of game... but that's just not true.
Many of us are looking for a glorious return to slow, tactical combat... I'd kill for an Arkham-series style MMO combat... or Shadows of Mordor... or heck. even Dark Souls style in an MMO! Very calculated, strategic and costly to execute wrong (though still based).
I was sort of disappointed by what was shown in the livestream yesterday because again, it was just people walking around a hallway killing mobs that had no idea you just killed their buddy 20 feet away. Bleh
In AoC's defense, Steven or Jerffrey have never said they are breaking new ground... they are delivering a solid traditional MMO with some new systems... and so far that's what we're seeing.
So in the end, wether the combat is action or targeted, tactical or spammy, doesn't make one better than the other... as long as it fits with the larger goal of the game.
As lethality said many of us have been waiting for a nice strategic paced MMO again... But as I said it's personal preference.
But since Ashes of Creation is not a martials arts game then thye would have to come up with some other voice overs.
This is the hard thing on this topic, pinning down an ideal combat style, because each combat style is sort of optimized for different tasks. So I'd rather give you some examples of combat styles I enjoy and what we could take from them.
Take a look at this one, for instance (Xbox BDO):
https://youtu.be/9JQot29EEdw
I absolutely love the combat shown here. BDO has a fluidity of combat that I've never seen, but at the same time it focuses on dealing with many enemies at once, in a grindy style. This is not what AoC is about, so I don't think the combat would fit, but we can take some things from it. The combo-based style for instance (every skill opens up a new row of skills to be used) is very neat and would be cool to be implemented in certain classes, specially monk-based ones.
Also, the animations are absolutely stunning and even if you do not like the game or it's combat, there is no doubt a lot of effort went into animating the characters. A fine example that here: https://youtu.be/P2WK2JXk4NI. This is a very important aspect for the combat experience, no matter what style it follows. The animations make use of the whole body of the character, something that was glaringly lacking in AoC, specially the mage skills (the ones Steven used in the latest stream are pretty good though).
A more technical combat (relying on animation cancelling) is seen in Blade and Soul:
https://youtu.be/ttggY4zLN_Y
What I take from this here in comparison to AoC is the class kit. Yours skills have a place, a moment, a reason to be used. Some of the skills are reactive, some are proactive. This is something that I think AoC will struggle a lot with, simply because of how many classes there will be and how they will interact with each other. I fear this a lot. Anyone who played ArcheAge knows that THAT is not how to create a good class system. Getting skills from Class A and Class B (and in AA's case, Class C), each with their own mechanics, means you have a clunky class in the end that doens't really do anything well, and in which the classes you chose don't communicate with each other. Class variety should never trump class identity. It's better to have 10 well established, unique classes, than 60 classes that can be divided in 6 groups of 10 classes that play sort of the same but not really.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of having dozens of classes to play with, but if they are all clones of each other, it all loses meaning.
These are two styles that I enjoy very much but as I said, it's something very personal. Look for any WoW videos and you'll see a similar trend: flow. Skills work into natural combos that are intuitive and generally easy to grasp. Even so, it has a lot of room to be mastered. Renewing DoTs, maintaining buffs and debuffs, keeping yourself protected. The livestream yesterday showed very little of that. Steven used a chain grab and mashed the same attack skill over and over. I get that most skill probably aren't done yet, so can't be used, but then don't put them over the combat bar. There were quite a few shield skills that I wanted to see but didn't get to, because he was not wearing a shield at first
So, TL:DR:
While I can't pinpoint the perfect combat system, I can give pointers on what I think a great combat system should have:
- Intuitive to new players while leaving room for mastery by experienced players.
- A solid, meaningful class kit that establishes that class as itself and away from other classes.
- Animations that flow well into each other. Clunky or interrupted animations break immersion and make the overall combat experience worse.
- Floating combat text that tells you what you need to know but is open for player customization. If I want to see no damage numbers, I should be allowed to. I also shouldn't need to see that COMBO text every second I press a skill.
Thanks!
Well Bless online is coming to the North America People say there combat system needs work needs to be faster. But I think these guys are pushing the limits of the Combat system. Bless online uses the Unreal 3 Engine. But just check this guys out.
Vidoes are short and sweet. Would like IS to meet or exceed this Bars.
Here some examples I would like to share.
Bless online Mage skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08_Tf0gJiiA
Bless online Ranger Skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0l7UQZHJoI
and Moonlight Blade Super Aerial Combat video Voice is in Chinese but the combat is unreal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLWywmBbjl49UnvY7ef8Ysi-OxiFO95ZQI&time_continue=6&v=WpJIcGskS-c
Moonlight has a lot of 'Qinggong' going for it, but again I don't imagine that fitting most classes in Ashes. It is cool, though.
As for Bless...there have been a looooot of critics to its combat system. It and the lack of endgame content are what killed the game. Their american release is the hail mary that will make or break the game.
They tried to pulled off the tabtargeting + action combat thing and..it didn't work out. I know they have changed quite a few things but I need to test it myself (I played the RU beta while it lasted and wasn't impressed, but that was pre-changes)
But I personally prefer tab target, and find Action combat AOE reliant and RSI inducing, more appropriate for the console/controller crowd, cripples high ping/latency and though perceived as visceral or faster can feel spammy or bland long term.
There are pros and cons to both systems.
Which is why Ashes is heading down a hybrid system utilising both systems to an extent and has been stated that combat customization will be augmentable enough to allow the player to adjust their combat style preferences....
for an Alpha the content seem good with room for improvement and I was happy to not see the UIQTE 1* skill system.
I suppose my own personal feeling at the moment is that Intrepid are doing enough in the 'other ' systems like Nodes , Caravans etc that allows me personally to be able to accept if the Combat is not the best or like BDO.
My philosophy so far with AOC is that there is no end game. The world is always fluid and changing. Therefore I'm happy to have the second or third best combat system out there to be in a world like this.
But your right if the combat is horrendous then the other systems simply cannot make up for what would be the elephant in the room. Good post.
On a personal note though even if the game 'hits the shelves" and it is not in the top 5 in terms of combat I am not going to lose sleep over it....esp. if the game has all the other grand ideas implemented which is what I want out of the game in the first place.
Its a PvX game heavily dependant on combat, so bad combat would be a bad game if thats where you spend most of your time by design.
But as others have said; that does not mean I expect it the be the best combat ever.
Good enough will do, considering everything else it offers.
Hell balanced and non-exploitable would make me happy.
Ground breaking combat would simply make the game awesome....but it is icing on the cake.
Most have this idea of "passable combat is enough if the rest is great", whereas I gravitate towards "combat is one of the cornerstones of a good game". Passable combat will turn activities that involve combat into passable ones as well. Great combat will incentivize people into seeking combat-related activities. But that's just my two cents.
Thanks for the remark though xD
Probably my favorite example of action combat was Wildstar. I don't know. Something about the feedback, the animations, the fact that combat felt punchy and impactful, it all came together in a good way for me.
As for the combat in AoC, I didn't really see anything alarming about it. Then again, I guess I wasn't wowed by it either. I was paying much more attention to the awesome atmosphere and environments than anything else.
Still, I completely agree. A game that focuses on combat needs to have a good combat system, or everything around it will suffer.
The last point is key I think: The ability for the combat system to feedback a kind of understanding of the combat experience to the player and for it to not just be like standing at a slot machine and hoping for good RNG. Games like Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice are prime examples of how this can be done brilliantly.
Intrepid have talked about this on a number of occasions and I'm pretty hopeful that they will provide that kind of combat experience. If they don't then we have plenty of time in the testing phases to make our ideas known. Great post!