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Caravan Destruction Penalty

What happens when you're a Merchant and send out a caravan carrying gear that you slaved weeks over in gathering/creating, and it is ganked by a group who destroyes your caravan?
Do you lose 100% percent of the stored gear, or only a part?
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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    It isn't "ganking" by definition. Caravans function as mobile pvp zones. When someone enters the zone of control around one they have 3 options. Attack, Defend, or Ignore. If as a crafter you are worried about losing your stuff while you try to transport it to a new node to capatilize/monetize then you need to have friends/guildies that will help escort it, invest in upgrades for your caravans to increase things like armor and speed, and decide what level of npc guards to hire that make your run profitable. 

    As of right now they have not declared whether 100 percent of a caravan is looted, but most likely that is the case. Last quote was that successful attackers that gain the option to loot will be given share certificates that they can turn in for a portion of the loot. Until they release details (much further down the line) that is all we have to go on.

    Just like the corruption system is in place to stop indiscriminate open world ganking, the caravan as pvp is part of their core gameplay. You may not like it, but it isn't going to change without a large change in vision of how they want the game to play. And as always, you don't have to send goods via caravan, you can sell them in your home node. Risk vs Reward and all that.

  • I am hoping Caravans are more group oriented, meaning that several PC's can pitch in to create/load one. That way caravans can occur more often and not a single player is responsible for "filling" one and thus losing tons of gathered/worked materials.

    That said, if the caravans varied in size based on load we might see a lot of single wagon "caravans" and less wagon-train caravans about. One would, I assume, be easier to hit/destroy while the other would have a much higher payout for success.
  • There will also be npc generated caravans that travel between two nodes once different kinds of trade agreements have been reached. Those most likely will become the most lucrative. One of my early livestream questions that they skipped over was whether we would be able to load caravans with dummy loads like manure to get people to attack a "plump" target and then they find out later they literally got shit for their effort.
  • Let's speculate a little with what we know. The way I see it there is 3 confirmed ways to carry stuff. in your inventory let's call this 1x Capacity (all capacities here are speculation based on what has been implied in the live-streams), with a mule mount lets call this 10x - (maybe 20x with breeding) capacity, and a caravan which is 100x - 1000x Capacity with upgrades.
    Steven has mentioned that carrying capacity is limited by both space and weight. We have seen the space limitations by a grid like in WoW from the A0 game play; The weight has likely not being implemented yet and the sizes of the inventory in A0 are likely no indication to the sizes we will see further down development, we can only form an idea of how the inventory works.
    Point being that Steven has said weight is applied to gatherables and materials and not to Currency, that's it, we don't know about stuff like gear but lets assume gear has no weight to it. Meaning that Caravans will likely be used for carrying materials and not gear. Point being you could choose to carry the specially valuable stuff with you in a mule with PvP turned off in low quantities and make more than one trip. Or take a risk for the sake of time and take a caravan.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    Which opens up yet again a debate that raged a few months back on whether mules will be subject to flagging mechanics. So far there is no clarification, and until we do know, arguing the benefits vs gankability is pointless when using a mule. This livestream is probably one of the better ones at timestamp 45:20 to explain the information we have on caravans so far. There are others out there. Items will have weight, currency will not.
    http://www.aocwiki.net/TheLazyPeon_Q&A_2017-05-15#.5B45:20.5D_Is_there_going_to_be_a_way_to_increase_your_character.27s_base_weight_limit_in-game.3F
  • I love the idea of caravans being centre for PvP and that you lost it all of you do not defend it and it gets destroyed. But I am wondering if any upgrades for it can give it the ability to save some of the items from falling into the wrong hands, for instance, the wagon at level 1 gets destroyed and you lose 100% then at level 2 you lose say 95% and so on and so forth. I think that would really in courage people to defend the earlier caravans as much as the later ones, more at stake and what not.
  • OR you could just get a bunch of friends together and move the resources from 1 node to the next in one mass mob of people. I mean who in their right mind would attack a battle ready horde of people? :smiley:
  • If my tea is late one more time because of people raiding my caravans, just because they look like boss site im going to wipe out every caravan I see.


  • or maybe we can make our caravans look like sht to discourage attackers.
  • OR you could just get a bunch of friends together and move the resources from 1 node to the next in one mass mob of people. I mean who in their right mind would attack a battle ready horde of people? :smiley:
    I would... Happily :smiley:
  • Hide your wives, hide your kids, hide your caravans. 
  • I really like the fact that Steven and Jeff have said many times that they are making a "risk vs reward" system in AoC.


    This means that players need to take the risk in order to get the reward. This not only will make content for players but it encourage players to team up and cooperate with each other. I'm always so amazed by the amount of people who want to play an MMO with out ever having to interact with other person. Go play Skyrim then.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited February 2018
    The risk of a caravan is quite obvious...lose the cargo.

    Setting it up so the reward is such that it's worth that risk is going to be the hard part. Obviously, just getting your cargo somewhere else isn't going to be enough of a reward to risk losing it altogether.

    The reward for caravans is the part they conveniently haven't given a single detail about, because it's the hardest part to figure out and is the linchpin of the mechanic working at all. 

    That allows the fanbois to just keep mindlessly chanting "it's alpha, it's alpha" and "it's not done yet, it's not done yet".
  • Karthos said:
    I really like the fact that Steven and Jeff have said many times that they are making a "risk vs reward" system in AoC.


    This means that players need to take the risk in order to get the reward. This not only will make content for players but it encourage players to team up and cooperate with each other. I'm always so amazed by the amount of people who want to play an MMO with out ever having to interact with other person. Go play Skyrim then.

    Carebears and solo players are typically the vocal minority. We must not pander to such demographics! Crush, kill, destroy! 
  • The benefit from delivering the cargo will be the payoff, anything gained from successfully defending against attackers, and the continued development of your node.

    In Ashes it will be very important to help your node not only grow, but keep enough resources coming in to prevent decay. I feel like a lot of people over look this core mechanic as being rewarding.
  • People have become too accustomed to being rewarded with little to no risk, too protected and desensitized for real conflict or success. #NoMoreHandHolding
  • We have been told that mounts can be killed and resurrected.Mules can be bred and run by a solo player. The deduction from there is that an unflagged solo muleskinner that has a lower payload will also have a much lower risk. It also stands to reason that it may drop a lower % of the payload if killed.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    Fyziks said:
    We have been told that mounts can be killed and resurrected.Mules can be bred and run by a solo player. The deduction from there is that an unflagged solo muleskinner that has a lower payload will also have a much lower risk. It also stands to reason that it may drop a lower % of the payload if killed.
    Haha...and then to carry your ill gotten goods you are going to have to get out your own mule, if that is even an option while in "monster" form. Which means anyone deciding to attack you while you are trying to transport corrupted gets a free loot pinata, which is guaranteed to drop at a higher percentage than that green you just ganked. All well and good thinking "I am going to take those 500 flowers from that noob", only to find you you get around 150, and since you can only carry 100 units, have to become a mule target yourself. Or I guess you could just not loot all the goodies.
  • I'm hoping that the losses incurred from a failed caravan run, is 100%.  The risks should match the rewards, or the whole process becomes watered down, and more of a chore, than a contest.  Diminishing the penalties, also diminishes the meaning behind these important mechanics.

    If a successful caravan run earns you 100% of the rewards, then failure should net you the same amount of loss.
  • ^ Let me fill my inventory after I stomp a caravan into the ground, if they can't protect their assets, they shouldn't have them.
  • The problem with looting a caravan is that it will have more material than any one person can carry. You will need a very large group to take all of the contents of a caravan. Once upon a time it was mentioned that if that attackers of a caravan are successful then they would get vouchers that they can redeem for the items at a specific location. Don't know if that is still how it will work. I imagine it will change a lot during testing.
  • I wonder how interesting would be an option where, upon offensive caravan victory, instead of simply getting certificates for certain %reward, you could chose:

    a) get certificates for %cargo reward (certain gain)
    b) hijack caravan - no reward, caravan continues from spot where you attacked to further target destination from where it is, and IF you manage to escort it to there you get full cargo reward (full reward but with risk that you will get attacked yourself along the way, and loose it all)

    Option B would add a chance for previous cargo owner to track down stolen caravan and grab it back, in which case he also gets to choose A or B, and if he chooses B, then he takes over caravan and continue to escort it, which again opens the caravan for attack.

    Caravan remains a target as long as it is not successfully escorted to destination OR someone chooses option A upon victory, destroys caravan and gets certificates for %reward.
  • @Gothix
    If they included this option my only request is you have to declare it before the attack begins, like when you decide to flag purple. Other than that, I love this idea!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    @Gothix
    Yeah. Excellent idea. So anywhere outside the nodes becomes a football pitch.
    The caravans become a football that remain in play until someone puts it in the back of the net (destination node).

    Make me wonder about multi team football now, with more than two teams and more than two goalnets all sharing the same pitch.
    lol.
  • Going off of @Gothix 's idea... How would it work if there are more than one faction attacking the caravan? If they succeed, who gets to decide what happens to it? What if one group wants to continue with the caravan and the other wants to turn it into notes? Do all the attackers get to vote when they first start attacking, so it becomes whoever brought the most players gets to decide the caravan's fate?
  • Kill em all, let the loot table sort it out.
  • Me personally will be KOS for any caravans
  • @Gothix's idea sounds good, and a really fun iteration of how caravan's could run.  But, Steven has stated that there is going to be severely limited quick travel in the game, mostly confined to scientific nodes.  If that's the case, then how would the original owner of the caravan catch up to their hijacked goods?  Or, for that matter, how would they even get word that their shipment was absconded/plundered, in time for a rescue attempt? (a PC guard could possibly send a "tell/whisper, if that type of messaging is in the game")

    I believe it was previously stated that caravan attacks would be a combination of planning, and luck, which won't be easy.  There is no single route to a caravan's destination, so spying into a traders plans, by a potential attacker, would fall under "planning".  A roving group of bandits who just happened to pick the right road to lay an ambush, as a plump caravan rolls their way, would fall under "luck".  

    The only way @Gothix's idea would work, is if traders set up "checkpoints" along the caravan's travel route, consisting of small groups of PC's, who would relay to all concerned when the caravan would reach them.  If the caravan didn't reach a certain checkpoint in time, then all PC's would begin a "search and rescue" mission.  

    That's a lot of manpower/resources.  Either a large guild, or a guild with a necessary amount of alliances, would be able to pull something like this off.  Or, a guild/player(s) with deep pockets, to hire lots of mercs.

      
  • @freespiryt

    Well caravan would always go between A and B (original start point and destination), and it would always go towards further destination from spot where it was attacked, so if previous caravan owner was aware of the attack spot, he would know caravan destination.

    For catching up with caravan, friends help come into play. That previous owner obviously needed more help anyway since he lost the battle, so would be pointless to catch it again and attack alone for sure.


    Only question is how to decide A or B between number of players that would want different choice. I'd say, at the moment battle ends, if attackers are victorious, whoever from attackers is there would get a vote window, and votes would be counted. Majority vote wins.

    If caravan is hijacked, all people that voted either way become caravan escort. And from that point on, hey if someone wishes to abandon escorting the caravan, he can. He will be aware that he is losing chance to get the loot.
  • No caravan is safe some me or anyone in Mutiny. Fair warning now, you have plenty of test phases to prepare yourselves for us.
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