What is going on with the MMO community

I have sat back and just obvserd for several years the steady decline of this community in terms of PVP....

Back when i was 15 years old and i played Asherons call on the pvp sever. We had a guild named "blood" which was a large guild and contested the best leveling grounds for this sand box which when you died you dropped loot..

What was interesting about that sitcuation was the people we call "care bears" now, mobilized an Anti effort to combat the blood guild... For years we waged epic battles at our guild housing, leveling grounds, ETC it created a dynamic that was immersive and memorable which created camaraderie within our factions of pk and anti pk...

Fast forward 15 years and this is what i have noticed;

- you literally drop no more loot upon death so that stressor is remove..

- most mmo are instanced to accomedate the PVE community removing immersive elements in the game..

- fast travel killed world pvp

- all pvp is instanced or penalized to the point where its not even worth it.. Removing an unpredictable but vital component in the game.

- PVEr have a huge sense of entitlement over bearing at times

- Safe spaces are created nearly in every coner of the game to accomedate our sensitive counter parts

- personal responsibility and improvise, adapt, and overcome are nearly traits that have vanished in this community. Maybe they should be skill trees to entice out brothers and sisters

- They complain about PVP and make it a me vs you thing, but not a us and we or community....

Resutls: one failed MMO after another with a fustrated community that cant agree on anything. In my opinion MMO fail now at crazy rates because once the hype is over and ALL the pve content has been exhausted most PVE players leave for the next shiny thing which just leaves you with PVP, which if its done right you will have an unlimited player created content to hold off anyone until an expansion is released.... If marginalized like its happen oh so many times before and even poped his head here on the forums you will inherit a ghost town MMO 6-12 months after release...


Asherons call went strong with a monthly subscription for nearly 20 years until they sgut the server down it had a dedicated pvp and pve community.


FLAME ON.

Comments

  • BobzittoBobzitto Member
    To pull you off your dreamland right at the start...Asheron's Call never went strong. Post-launch sub numbers were dismall, and fluctuated at 5-10k subs, going down until it settled at ~2k from 2008 onwards. 

    That said, you don't seem to realize that there's been a big shift in the market for MMOs since their start in late 90's. You can thank WoW for that one. The hardcore population is still there, mind you, but the softcore one is simply much, much bigger. It's not feasible for any company to make a game focusing on the minority of their playerbase. WildStar tried it, with hardcore PvE content, and failed because people weren't into putting the time and effort required. Because time and effort are things the current population of MMOs doesn't want to invest as much as they did in 1998. 

    With that in mind, I'll address some of the points you brought up:

    - Dropping loot on death: who the fuck would want this kind of dumb mechanic in a game? I work 8 hours a day, study another 4, whatever time I have to dedicate to my games, I don't want to see evaporated because someone decided to gank me. Games haven't done this in what, 20 years? And they won't.

    - PvE is now instanced: because, in general, MMO population is much bigger, having un-instanced PvE would be a mess, and it would simply discourage people from doing it.

    - Fast travel killed world pvp/all pvp is instanced or penalized: I think this is a touchy subject, but the first thing I'd like to say is that no, world PvP is not vital to a game. It might be interesting at times, and frustrating at others, but really...not vital at all. Now, I don't think fast travel killed world pvp, I think people simply realized there is no reason to do it. And if you give it a reason (here is the touchy point), such as dropping loot or death or awarding some sort of currency, you risk having a minority of scumbags driving your game's population away.

    - PvErs have a sense of entitlement: I think people in general do. From your words, you do too. You think you're entitled to being rewarded for doing wPvP. Casual PvErs think they are entitled too. Companies listen because, guess what, they are the ones paying the bills, since they are the majority.

    Overall, you just seem to ramble on and on about how the PvP scene is dying and you think (based on god knows what) that not only is PvP the salvation of MMOs, it is also capable of generating unlimited content. Pro tip: it is not, in both cases. 

    And to end on a high note: please review your text, you have more spelling and typos than an entire class of 6 year olds.
  • SvigdarSvigdar Member
    PvPers killed Open-World PvP. The community changed alright - the trolls won.

    I used to be part of an Anti-PvP guild known as the 'Keepers of Stromgarde' in WoW. Way back in the day, we used to patrol Hillsbrad and Arathi, protecting low level Alliance against large Horde PvP guilds. We had titanic battles, win some, lose some, and it was a blast.

    But as time went on, we started to see more and more 'PvPers' whose only interest was trolling and harrassing newbies and preventing them from completing quests in the zones. Level fifty people killing and camping level twenties for kicks. As soon as we'd arrive to put up a credible fight, the trolls would run away, flee to guard zones, or just log off. They weren't interested in a real fight, just in being able to one shot easy kills. Being in an anti-PvP guild became an exercise in frustration because the trolls didn't actually want to PvP against someone who could be a real challenge for them.

    It just became worse and worse over the years. Eventually, the PvE'ers were given ways to avoid the harassment so they could keep playing the game they had paid for. All the stuff you mentioned was a result of trolling behavior - guard zones, fast travel - all to avoid known ambush areas. Those PvPers who were actually interested in fighting their peers were given the sterile, instanced Arenas we're all familiar with now. PvPers with no sense of fairness or empathy for the rest of the community killed their own fun.

    Open world PvP only adds 'content' when it's approached with a sense of _decency_; I know that word is absent most people's vocabulary these days, but if open PvP is ever to return to 'glory days' there has to be a sense of fair play in it. Newbie killing and camping has to go away. Fights need to be 'close to fair' so that they are exciting and fun, and not drudgery and harassment. And PvPers have to find the line where 'enough is enough' and let the PvEer's get back to questing. The game is supposed to be fun for _everyone_, not just a single group with a particular play-style.

    You're wrong in saying PvE'ers have a huge sense of 'entitlement'; that wasn't what caused the death of open world PvP. They just wanted to play the game, same as us PvPers. When the PvP community let its worst instincts win, it killed the fun for everyone, and the game developers stepped in.
  • BobzittoBobzitto Member
    Flatline said:
    Prime example of the problem.. I never stated that dropping loot is what i want just referencing of some of the things that changed... But to counter some of your obvious one sided and childish comments..

    - is pvp vital? Yes, why? Well any game out in the market dispite what style excels over the ages in a pvp platform... Star craft, Counter strike, Madden, eve online to name a few.. Not much can be said for soley PVE games......

    - You claim im entiled but all you did was complain about my points and provide no solution to an obvious problem... Which is PVP is just as vital as PVE to have an MMO survive, but you rant off as an entitled self carebear...

    And finally on my grammer, it might suck however i assure you it does not impede me in obtaining more money per year than you and more pussy, now think about that for a second and go fuck yourself ;) 

    - PvP is not vital, mate, no matter how much you wish for it. If you really wanna go outside the MMO genre, you can find games that excel in either PvP or PvE, but that's beyond the scope of the discussion. I could point out Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Path of Exile, or even Minecraft as games that sold extremely well and are generally well received by both critics and the community, and don't have PvP (except modded Minecraft I suppose). PvP is simply one of the many facets which can be present in a game as content to me enjoyed by the players. Just like PvE is one such facet and doesn't really need to be present - look at Crowfall. 

    - I'm not complaining, I'm opposing what you say. There is a difference. Disagreeing with you also does not make me a carebear, nor entitled. I like PvP just as much as the other guy, but as Svigdar mentioned, the PvP community is the one killing wPvP. I saw that in the early days of Black Desert Online, where getting killed in wPvP would make you lose experience. One day, the top two guilds of the server decided no one was going to level up, and started ganking every player in the high-level leveling zones to make they go back to 0%. A week later, they removed the XP penalty and increased the punitive measures for wPvP. No carebear had to ask for that, the PvP community simply acted like total assholes and got what they deserved.

    Finally, no, your 'grammer' does not stop you from making more money than me (something which is really not that hard considering I'm a teacher), or getting more pussy. That said, I couldn't bear sparing a second of my life to think about it. 
  • FlatlineFlatline Member ✭✭✭
    Bobzitto said:
    Flatline said:
    Prime example of the problem.. I never stated that dropping loot is what i want just referencing of some of the things that changed... But to counter some of your obvious one sided and childish comments..

    - is pvp vital? Yes, why? Well any game out in the market dispite what style excels over the ages in a pvp platform... Star craft, Counter strike, Madden, eve online to name a few.. Not much can be said for soley PVE games......

    - You claim im entiled but all you did was complain about my points and provide no solution to an obvious problem... Which is PVP is just as vital as PVE to have an MMO survive, but you rant off as an entitled self carebear...

    And finally on my grammer, it might suck however i assure you it does not impede me in obtaining more money per year than you and more pussy, now think about that for a second and go fuck yourself ;) 

    - PvP is not vital, mate, no matter how much you wish for it. If you really wanna go outside the MMO genre, you can find games that excel in either PvP or PvE, but that's beyond the scope of the discussion. I could point out Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Path of Exile, or even Minecraft as games that sold extremely well and are generally well received by both critics and the community, and don't have PvP (except modded Minecraft I suppose). PvP is simply one of the many facets which can be present in a game as content to me enjoyed by the players. Just like PvE is one such facet and doesn't really need to be present - look at Crowfall. 

    - I'm not complaining, I'm opposing what you say. There is a difference. Disagreeing with you also does not make me a carebear, nor entitled. I like PvP just as much as the other guy, but as Svigdar mentioned, the PvP community is the one killing wPvP. I saw that in the early days of Black Desert Online, where getting killed in wPvP would make you lose experience. One day, the top two guilds of the server decided no one was going to level up, and started ganking every player in the high-level leveling zones to make they go back to 0%. A week later, they removed the XP penalty and increased the punitive measures for wPvP. No carebear had to ask for that, the PvP community simply acted like total assholes and got what they deserved.

    Finally, no, your 'grammer' does not stop you from making more money than me (something which is really not that hard considering I'm a teacher), or getting more pussy. That said, I couldn't bear sparing a second of my life to think about it. 
    Ok the final comment made me laugh a bit.... We will just agree to disagree. 
  • ArgentdawnArgentdawn Member alpha-0-rank
    I've played games that have only instanced pvp to games with full loot open pvp. The first thing I turn to when I get bored of gathering or "end game" is pvp. If pvp is done poorly my sub usually lapses until the next content patch. 

    I'm one of those "no lifers" I basically work 45-50 hours a week and game the rest of it... "Sandbox" or "open world" games are the  ones I tend to play because of the amount of content vs cost of game. 

    I backed ashes early and high because I figured it would be worth it and I still do. I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic for the state of pvp to be properly balanced and incentivised. 

  • Rune_RelicRune_Relic Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    So you will allow,
    Static, transient and mobile non-combat Sanctuaries to counter the..
    Static, transient and mobile compulsory combat Warzones (castles, sieges, caravans) ?
    You will allow areas of peace as well as areas of war ?
    Seems to me the scales are already tipped far in favour of PvP.

    There are plenty that just want to explore craft and gather and role play too.
    Those care-bears are just as entitled to engage in their playstyle as you are.
    But you cant have a peaceful warzone can you.
    What you want is a PvP server. This is not a PvP server. It is a PvX server.
    And it will never be a PvP server.

    You want to get PvE players to PvP you dont force them into it, you let them choose to do it.
    You can only lead a horse to water. You cant force them to drink.
    The trick is to let them dip there toes into the water, rather than cut the toes off as soon as you see them.

    But PvP players have no decency any more. They will just spawn camp new player and helpless players. They will only target the weak to build player kill ratio and brag about their stats. So PvPers have become recognised as the scum they have become. And no one really want to associate with scum. Just stick them in a box in the corner out of the way.

    If you want to change that. Then you have to change the perception PvP players are scum. Good luck with that when you exhibit zero empathy.

    So.. many of the old time PvPr's on here recognise the problem and are trying to create a sense of honorable PvP again. Get the PvErs to take part and maybe/hopefully/probably even enjoy it. And you know they were actually listening. Even becoming eager to give it a try. Because thats the only way you will make PvP popular again.

    But whats the damn point if some pvpers just piss all over our efforts by demanding the right to be scum. As a regular PvP'r I despair. I really do. When you over fish the seas...sooner or later there is no fish left.

  • FlatlineFlatline Member ✭✭✭
    @Rune_Relic i understand what you are saying however we still have pvers trying to opress the pvp aspect of this game by demanding more and more "safe spaces" if this gets granted we have the same failed MMOs we have seen over and over again..... 

    As for honor PVP, its a community effort to get it there... People will always try to grief you in any game you play, the trick is how do you react to it? Do you just become the victim? Or do mobilize yourself to counter the pker? With the current system of bounty hunters AOC adresses this perfectly.. If the crafter is unwilling to stand up forhimself then a dedicated player in hunting down bounties will. 


  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    Flatline said:
    I have sat back and just obvserd for several years the steady decline of this community in terms of PVP....

    Back when i was 15 years old and i played Asherons call on the pvp sever. We had a guild named "blood" which was a large guild and contested the best leveling grounds for this sand box which when you died you dropped loot..

    What was interesting about that sitcuation was the people we call "care bears" now, mobilized an Anti effort to combat the blood guild... For years we waged epic battles at our guild housing, leveling grounds, ETC it created a dynamic that was immersive and memorable which created camaraderie within our factions of pk and anti pk...

    Fast forward 15 years and this is what i have noticed;

    - you literally drop no more loot upon death so that stressor is remove..

    - most mmo are instanced to accomedate the PVE community removing immersive elements in the game..

    - fast travel killed world pvp

    - all pvp is instanced or penalized to the point where its not even worth it.. Removing an unpredictable but vital component in the game.

    - PVEr have a huge sense of entitlement over bearing at times

    - Safe spaces are created nearly in every coner of the game to accomedate our sensitive counter parts

    - personal responsibility and improvise, adapt, and overcome are nearly traits that have vanished in this community. Maybe they should be skill trees to entice out brothers and sisters

    - They complain about PVP and make it a me vs you thing, but not a us and we or community....

    Resutls: one failed MMO after another with a fustrated community that cant agree on anything. In my opinion MMO fail now at crazy rates because once the hype is over and ALL the pve content has been exhausted most PVE players leave for the next shiny thing which just leaves you with PVP, which if its done right you will have an unlimited player created content to hold off anyone until an expansion is released.... If marginalized like its happen oh so many times before and even poped his head here on the forums you will inherit a ghost town MMO 6-12 months after release...


    Asherons call went strong with a monthly subscription for nearly 20 years until they sgut the server down it had a dedicated pvp and pve community.


    FLAME ON.
    I am closing this thread as non constructive, as the OP seems to be inviting a flame war. I would like to remind everyone here on the forums that while it is fine to talk passionately about the game, it is not fine to attack, flame or harass other community members. Please take the time to read the community guidelines if you are not certain about the type of behavior that is acceptable here.

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/6855/read-me-community-guidelines-code-of-conduct/p1

This discussion has been closed.