Crafted Arrows, Daggers and Catapult Ammo.

ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
edited March 2018 in Ashes of Creation Design
I have searched all the available info and found nothing about crafting my arrows. What mats and processes do you think should go into our " better than npc vendor" arrows?

VoidShadow  illustrated how this thread has broader implications than just arrows so I edited the title. I invite all to give every argument for or against as these mechanics will effect every player regardless of style.

general consensus in the thread seems to be no extra effects , crafting in range/damage/speed and to have X types of siege machine ammo.

Comments

  • We don't even know if crafting arrows is a thing in thia game. Nothing has been mentioned about it as far as I know. 
  • Someone else can source it, but I remember this being answered already in the form of "Will we need reagents to cast spells?" No "ammunition" mechanic.
  • Crafting arrows its nice idea but it'll be annoying after time. So "infinity" arrows in our backpack will be fine. Eventually buying arrows from npc will be fine for me.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    Nothing against you Rainer  but infinity arrows felt  like a B.S. mechanic when it replaced Razor arrows in WoW. If we didn't keep our stock up we failed in pvp. in the past it gave me another pre battle strategy of taking the bulk of high end ammo out of the opponents market late Friday in anticipation of weekend BGs. I guess that will mean we won't need anything to fill and fire siege catapults either since that constitutes another form of ammo.
  • Arrows or throwing daggers will add extra cost and disadvantage to rangers or rogues but to not have ammo for catapults is total bs in my opinion. A siege is supposed to take time to prepare. Your catapults should have ammo and if you didnt prepare enough for a siege... well too bad i guess
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    VoidShadow  My entire argument is about the preparation. Cast ttime and cd =a mages prep. A bowman should have the best range in the game PERIOD, and if your lack of forethought results in having to run away to fight another day, you WILL remember the next time. Thank You for bringing thrown daggers to this threads attention. A double standard for siege equipment is untenable in my perspective, ammunition is a major gear factor, base npc vendor versions should be cheap but the market factor of high grade crafted arrows can make the difference between good battle strategies and failure. Sand in your catapult vs a barrel of pitch or a returning the attackers boulders.

  • a medium option could be :
     - Ordinary ammunication can be create by enchanted quiver, may be one each 20 sec, so if you fire too fast, you empty the quiver.
    - Special ammunition, or high end one, wich must be bought/craft, and are in limited supply.
    So if you go for a hard target you will need to prepare for it, buy special stuff, and for the leasurly exploration, you use enchanted quiver.

    I agree about siege ammunication, it must not be free. War is expensive.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    @Fyziks i am in agreement with your point however how exactly will archers differ from their class abilities and arrow types. You can buy normal cheap arrows from an npc but player crafted ones will be stronger is what youre saying right? So going by that, stronger how exactly? If you can craft arrows to have extra damage only or different physical types like your normal arrow, barbed arrow, blade like arrow, then its fine. But if you mean craft arrows as in enchant them with special abilities like piercing, or paralysis or poison etc. this takes away from potential skills of the ranger class. 

      If i remember correctly one of the rangers abilities is a rainstorm of arrows in a target area. As much as i am in favor of ammunition, abilities like this don't exactly support it. Crafting bows now for different things like armor pierce, or extra range or multiple fires in one shot is much more plausible

    Throwing daggers is another thing altogether. Despite being a fantasy game, a "rainstorm" or rapid fire of daggers is a bit unrealistic. Sure a rogue can have a throwing ability but to use it i think ammunition for throwing daggers makes sense and the ability damage will scale off of the weapon's stats. That being said, the throwing dagger weapon can technically never be a crafted to be a god tier weapon because its going to require some sort of easy mass production to function as ammunition. Thus the items used to craft can't be to rare. 
  •  
    With the three stage dialed trait crafting, I would not expect any extra class abilities. Crafting would dial the 3 basics of arrows. range/dmg/crit(or whatever Dev. have as the relevant stat).the other plausible dials might be cd speed/cc duration/ etc.
  • This is a very interesting thread.

    I don't mind an ammunition for arrows, but they would have to be easy to come by either from buying or finding in the wilds.  I also think throwing daggers should be treated similarly even if they are not used as often as arrows will be.  I do see the argument with the abilities not matching up with this idea.  Just remember that with the arrow storm ability in other mmos the archer fires one arrow, but multiple come down. If you want a good example of arrow crafting for archers look at skyrim and how you could craft them, but also get them from enemies and shops.  The idea of having to craft the ammunition for catapults, ballistas, and maybe even the oil for the burning oil pots is very interesting. I also like the idea of salvaging enemy siege ammunition.  It will also be interesting to see what types of ammunition for siege equipment there will be.  Of course, the usual boulders and bolts, but what about some of the other types seen in history. I.e. cages of small animals, burning boulders coated in oil, Sulphur, greek fire, and some that are unlikely to make an appearance.

  •  It will also be interesting to see what types of ammunition for siege equipment there will be.  Of course, the usual boulders and bolts, but what about some of the other types seen in history. I.e. cages of small animals, burning boulders coated in oil, Sulphur, greek fire, and some that are unlikely to make an appearance.

    How about dead bodies infected by the black plague  :p
  • Zastro said:

     It will also be interesting to see what types of ammunition for siege equipment there will be.  Of course, the usual boulders and bolts, but what about some of the other types seen in history. I.e. cages of small animals, burning boulders coated in oil, Sulphur, greek fire, and some that are unlikely to make an appearance.

    How about dead bodies infected by the black plague  :p
    That would go under the last section as I don't see the devs allowing that. Although I would like to see it, or even cattle. (If I remember correctly the romans used dead cattle once.)
  • Since "no ammo" mechanics, there could be an option to temporarily enchant your ammo.

    You spend resources to create an enchant, however instead of enchanting certain gear piece, you enchant ammo slot, and your ammo gets small boost.

    Ammo slot enchants could come with various bonuses depending on specific enchant used, from increasing range, adding DoT, adding critical chance increase, adding instant damage, adding slow effect to targets hit,...

    Ammo slot enchants would be TEMPORARY and would expire after certain period of time.
  • @Zastro no mongolian shit where we launching plague ridden bodies over city walls pls. That shit started the bubonic plague. 

      That aside like SaINts_Shinobi  said, i hope we get a large variety when it comes to sieging including siege towers, battering rams, ballistae for attackers and greek fire,boiling oil, spiked fences, defense catapults etc for defenders. 
  • Even some of the stuff that was shown in the eso cinematic trailers would be cool.


  • I’ve been in favor of using ammunition for your bow for a while, using arrows was almost crucial for any of my bow builds and it was always a fun big help using the right arrows.

    The issue is, every class is supposed to get class based loot, and everyone can use a bow, supposedly. So everyone would need to have arrows as part of their common drops from chests, maybe a little bunch of special arrows every 5 chests could be enough to keep people going, if youve got the normal vendor arrows.

    And I’m also in agreement with arrows having special abilities and effects.
  • @RiverBird are you suggesting that class abilities and ammunition have no correlation? Weapons aren't class locked so everyone deciding to use a bow needs to purchase ammo for basic attacking but abilities will be unaffected by ammunition? That could work i suppose. I really hope the physics engine of the game is good. This will make using a bow feel wonderful from a far range. Anyone using a bow should have the longest basic attacking range in my opinion. 

  • Perhaps other classes that use a bow get only basic arrows (infinite ammo), however rangers (having the proficiency for it) can additionally apply various special effects to those arrows while they are being shot.

    This would make sense imo.
  • Well crafting arrows and daggers to throw for sure will ad some immersion, but when you have to sometimes go to city and buys 10 daggers or arrows when mage or warrior can just stay and using sword and spells. But it dev will add somethink like durability for weapons it will be balanced. And blacksmithing will have more sense and earn some money for repair. Of couse in my mind NPC can't do it but only PC. 

    And when you have to us amunition like arrows and daggers what you need to buy we have 2 options.
    1. Its cheap and you can buy around 200 and you can't get them from death enemy or get it back from someone what you just killed.
    2. You can have only small amout like 20, and you can get arrows from death body with low % chance it will destroy.


  • @VoidShadow
    Steven already told us you can use any weapon and armor on any class, it will give you some + and some -.

    But when our skills use specific weapon they will change/block/or switch with other skills.  That's our only 3 options.

  • No ammo mechanics cause of no fast travel and huge size of world.

    Rangers would be severely disadvantaged for having to waste so much time traveling back to cities all the time to replenish ammo.
  • You could do the inverse of legendary.
    Typical in a vertical progression game higher quality items give you more damage as they are rarer and superior build.

    But there is nothing saying
    very rare tier 1 arrows give 100% damage
    rare tier 2 arrows give 90% damage
    unlimited tier 3 arrows give 80% damage

    That way its not game breaking when you run out of arrows, but you are penalized for not preparing.

    On the special ability arrows, that would have to be common abilities or class specific and tailored. IMO
  • Sure! Gothix 
     Hit me with your logic hammer why don't you! 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Ollinwen said:
    a medium option could be :
     - Ordinary ammunication can be create by enchanted quiver, may be one each 20 sec, so if you fire too fast, you empty the quiver.
    - Special ammunition, or high end one, wich must be bought/craft, and are in limited supply.
    So if you go for a hard target you will need to prepare for it, buy special stuff, and for the leasurly exploration, you use enchanted quiver.

    I agree about siege ammunication, it must not be free. War is expensive.
    Sorry if I necro, but.. I would like to put my mind into this.

    What Ollinwen said seems to be the most fun option to me whenever there is a need for crafting special arrows besides standard unlimited arrows that replenish over time.

    Also... This system, if implemented would give me cause to gather materials for special ammunition, would create a feel of uniqueness if there are a lot different kinds of special ammunition to be made, but you're limited to have a certain amount of each with you, so that you have to think ahead in fights. .p.s. do not make special ammunition OP or a requirement to beat a boss. 

    An example of special ammunition could be; arrow with extra pierce or an arrow with a smokebomb attached to it, to create a cloud of smoke so that mobs see you less quickly (within 2 meters instead of 3 meters). - make it so that the materials to craft them are found in nature, without the need to go to a city.
  • I was thinking back to other MMO's I have played with arrows as an actual item, and was going to point out a common complaint from top end players of classes that rely on a bow for damage - no other class needs to spend time and/or money on consumables to do damage, why should bow classes have to?

     While that is a perfectly valid concern...
    Gothix said:
    No ammo mechanics cause of no fast travel and huge size of world.

    Rangers would be severely disadvantaged for having to waste so much time traveling back to cities all the time to replenish ammo.

    this is a far better point in relation to AoC.

    Ammo of any kind will have a negative impact on group play in AoC. If you are in a dungeon that takes an hour to get to from your home node, and half way through the zone the ranger runs out of arrows, do you wait for him to get more?
  • @Noaani
    Gear and weapons will break and wear out.
    Higher quality items may well suffer this sooner.
    In such cases I would wear the lower quality gear and use lower quality weapons unless I had to swap out because of a greater risk environment.

    The same thing can apply to ammo. Low quality items are far more abundant and unlikely to run out.
    High quality ammo will be rarer and used sparingly for when it matters.
    The choice....is the players.

    So it can be made 'fair' from that point of view.
  • From the perspective of someone who loves spellcasters, I really like the idea of ammo and I think it adds depth to the class, especially if there are variables you can play with and discover. Equally, I'm very happy to be a spellcaster who has to collect reagents to support certain spells. It makes the whole impact of that character feel more real because you're actually collecting and consciously preparing yourself for that situation where you need to use a certain ability, and the finite nature of that ability adds to its impact as well.
  • @Noaani
    Gear and weapons will break and wear out.
    Higher quality items may well suffer this sooner.
    In such cases I would wear the lower quality gear and use lower quality weapons unless I had to swap out because of a greater risk environment.

    The same thing can apply to ammo. Low quality items are far more abundant and unlikely to run out.
    High quality ammo will be rarer and used sparingly for when it matters.
    The choice....is the players.

    So it can be made 'fair' from that point of view.
    While it is true that all players will have to deal with gear degradation, and this will cost players - it should be said that this applies to bow users in exactly the same way as it does to everyone else since everyone has the same number of item slots. Over and above this though, bow users would have the expense of arrows.

    Now, if Intrepid made it so bows don't degrade at all and shifted that cost over to arrows, I could see that potentially balancing out which would fix up that one issue.

    I do personally like any versatility that can be added to games, but it needs to be added in a fair and balanced manner in the added versatility it gives, the cost it incurs and the potential for player caused issues to arise. In my opinion, simply adding ammo for bow users doesn't meet all of these requirements to a satisfactory level, so shouldn't be added without further systemization.
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