@Oiraeket No arguing there, great example as well, if that player fails to blink out of the nova, or fails to silence the enemy when he casts frost bolt. All the points you made put the power and success factor mostly in the player's hands which I support
Hmm, I think I disagree. The point I was trying to make is that there's a predictable "dialogue" between two players (classes) which is not interesting; it's a routine. My first example, where the player was having to ask questions and test out ideas, was the example that demonstrates actual engagement because the player is having to unpick the situation they've landed themselves in.
Perhaps our conceptions of skill are different, which makes this conversation more complicated.
I view player skill as the ability to adapt to different situations.
You seem to view player skill as their ability to play out a routine.
I do think my conception makes for more interesting game play. The question is whether routine can be avoided in a game analysed to death.
@Oiraeket Ahhh then I must have misread and misinterpreted that, my bad
And actually I support the idea of adaptation, Action -> Reaction. If that type of game play is incorporated into the combat gameplay I am all for it. Usually that's how I play my RPG's, especially when I am defeated in PVP, I immediately start thinking :
- what went wrong and at what stage? - could I have avoided the situation? - could I have countered the enemy? - Should I have used a different skill? - was my positioning off? etc.
It is also one of the reason why I really like the pvp in the Souls series, if a person just repeats a routine it creates predictability which in turn allows the opponent to easily counter it.
I agree that part of the skill is the ability of adaption; However I also view skill on the micro level, for example the ability to place a well timed skill shot, or to dodge an enemy attack while simultaneously already positioning oneself for an optimal attack.
I think there will always be a certain routine, you cannot escape it, just like you cannot escape meta setups. However if the tools are given for players to switch up and surprise or bait their enemies into certain actions that would be great. And for that they will need to ensure that your point of :
- Rotations are not linear and not reliably the best thing to do always.
needs to be solved, However I do think that the combat system needs to be fleshed out more before it can be seen if that problem is present, and if it is how it can be solved.
@Zartas I hope that I have the bigger boots in most situations.. and you have some very valid points
haha lets hope my shins remain unscathed if I encounter you
@Valentines No arguing there, The number vs number situation is what I was trying to convey, with who has the bigger boots during the shin kicking competition :P
That's just the thing, everyone's aiming for shins during these fights! Why can't we aim for more skillful places to hit, like in between your legs! =p
I also prefer non-targeting combat over tab-targeting and i would like to see a good amount of skillshots instead of automatic hits. Imo that would make fights more interesting and more based on skill and positioning.
About the difficulty of PvE content. There does not need to be one specific mode and it can be implemented way, that there is plenty of options where difficulty changes. The game can offer players choises to take part in content they want to. If they choose to do easier quests in close areas, then they will progress longer and will get lesser rewards, than those who goes to deepest dungeons somewhere far away beyond mountains. There can be anything between those two extremes if IS are willing to cater wide playerbase.
I personally would like to see some challenge and totally faceroll content will only lead to boredom. If IS can offer somehow scaled dificulty, so everyone can enjoy the game they want to, then i guess they have managed very well.
In general, in an RPG, character skill should trump player skill. My Ranger, if I build the character so, should be better at aiming than I am. My Rogue, if I build my character so, should be better at hiding in shadows than I am. That's why the characters have stats and special abilities and gear that support those stats and special abilities.
Same for spotting hidden paths and disarming magical obstacles.
Which is why it's great that Ashes will have some tab-target abilities and some active target abilities. Giving individual players more options for playing how they prefer to play.
Which is why it's great that Ashes will have some tab-target abilities and some active target abilities. Giving individual players more options for playing how they prefer to play.
It is great if both playstyles are in balance, but easily there can be problems where other is superior over other. Usually this means that even you want to play non-targeting, you should not, because it is more efficient and easier to go with tab-targeting.
- Rotations are not linear and not reliably the best thing to do always.
needs to be solved, However I do think that the combat system needs to be fleshed out more before it can be seen if that problem is present, and if it is how it can be solved.
1. The RNG timing mechanism of the skill shot kills any macro/bot gameplay. 2. Making skills 'situational' and/or 'environmentally dependant' means always using the same skill, in the same place, at the same time, would not only be inefficient but downright dangerous. 3. Making skills 'tuned' to certain target builds could have both a positive and negative impact in that enemy. So deploying the wrong skills against the wrong person could also be inefficient or downright dangerous. (NOTE feedback is essential so identification must not be obfuscated here for racial/class weaknesses/strengths).
The opposite of skill is ignorance. Punishing ignorance is just as effective as promoting skill. They can and should go hand in hand IMHO. Its all part of understanding not just your build, but how it interacts with the environment in which it exists.
- Rotations are not linear and not reliably the best thing to do always.
needs to be solved, However I do think that the combat system needs to be fleshed out more before it can be seen if that problem is present, and if it is how it can be solved.
1. The RNG timing mechanism of the skill shot kills any macro/bot gameplay. 2. Making skills 'situational' and/or 'environmentally dependant' means always using the same skill, in the same place, at the same time, would not only be inefficient but downright dangerous. 3. Making skills 'tuned' to certain target builds could have both a positive and negative impact in that enemy. So deploying the wrong skills against the wrong person could also be inefficient or downright dangerous. (NOTE feedback is essential so identification must not be obfuscated here for racial/class weaknesses/strengths).
The opposite of skill is ignorance. Punishing ignorance is just as effective as promoting skill. They can and should go hand in hand IMHO. Its all part of understanding not just your build, but how it interacts with the environment in which it exists.
Those are some good solutions to the problem, I also completely forgot, about the danger of macros, there is nothing worse than being killed in pvp and seeing in the kill feed that the enemy unleashed a combo of 5 skill in 1.2 seconds :P.
I do have a couple of questions - What do you exactly mean with the RNG timing mechanism of a skill shot? - And how would you see the feedback you mark out as essential in point 3?
On a side note I was recently playing Diablo 3 (god knows why XD), a game which is heavily dependent on gear, and while playing I found an item which directly made the game trivial I was suddenly one shotting almost everything. It was such an unsatisfying feeling when I noticed that the outcome of battle was determined by a bunch of numbers . I am glad that game does not have open world pvp, that would have been a disaster.
This also made think about certain things like dodge an block being tied to statistics. I am hoping that Ashes will have active damage mitigation, where the success of avoiding and mitigating damage is reliant on the player, and not a on a bunch of numbers.
While I would have personally preferred that dodging and blocking be available to all skill sets. None the less the proposed systems seem interesting, and I curious about the final implementation.
- Rotations are not linear and not reliably the best thing to do always.
needs to be solved, However I do think that the combat system needs to be fleshed out more before it can be seen if that problem is present, and if it is how it can be solved.
1. The RNG timing mechanism of the skill shot kills any macro/bot gameplay. 2. Making skills 'situational' and/or 'environmentally dependant' means always using the same skill, in the same place, at the same time, would not only be inefficient but downright dangerous. 3. Making skills 'tuned' to certain target builds could have both a positive and negative impact in that enemy. So deploying the wrong skills against the wrong person could also be inefficient or downright dangerous. (NOTE feedback is essential so identification must not be obfuscated here for racial/class weaknesses/strengths).
The opposite of skill is ignorance. Punishing ignorance is just as effective as promoting skill. They can and should go hand in hand IMHO. Its all part of understanding not just your build, but how it interacts with the environment in which it exists.
Those are some good solutions to the problem, I also completely forgot, about the danger of macros, there is nothing worse than being killed in pvp and seeing in the kill feed that the enemy unleashed a combo of 5 skill in 1.2 seconds :P.
I do have a couple of questions - What do you exactly mean with the RNG timing mechanism of a skill shot? - And how would you see the feedback you mark out as essential in point 3?
On a side note I was recently playing Diablo 3 (god knows why XD), a game which is heavily dependent on gear, and while playing I found an item which directly made the game trivial I was suddenly one shotting almost everything. It was such an unsatisfying feeling when I noticed that the outcome of battle was determined by a bunch of numbers . I am glad that game does not have open world pvp, that would have been a disaster.
This also made think about certain things like dodge an block being tied to statistics. I am hoping that Ashes will have active damage mitigation, where the success of avoiding and mitigating damage is reliant on the player, and not a on a bunch of numbers.
They have a whack a mole bar in the earliest game samples. The bar duration maybe one second or so depending on skill. There is also a 'larger or smaller' window of opportunity you must click on to maximise damage. Where this 'window of opportunity' exists on the bar is RNG. This ensures the timing between perfect skill shots varies. So using a constant timer based macro or similar will result in minimal damage. The only way to hit the mark is to do it manually. The way the UI was designed was poor in many people opinion as you had to take your eyes off the game world and focus on the bar. Nothing stopping them putting similar indicators on the targets themselves....or the weapon
The 3rd part is where certain skills would have a greater impact in specific classes or races if they have weaknesses that differentiate them that can be capitalized upon. Like a fire mage maybe familiar with fire magic and relatively immune, but ice magic in contrast, they would be highly susceptible to such damage in an amplified way.
Which is why it's great that Ashes will have some tab-target abilities and some active target abilities. Giving individual players more options for playing how they prefer to play.
It is great if both playstyles are in balance, but easily there can be problems where other is superior over other. Usually this means that even you want to play non-targeting, you should not, because it is more efficient and easier to go with tab-targeting.
Really is all about how players prefer to play. Easier tab-target will steal all the fun away for many people, so they will focus on action controls. Some of us greatly prefer action abilities over tab-target abilities. And I am a casual-challenge player.
Many people will prefer tab-target abilities. And some will feel reliant upon tab-target abilities.
Which is why it's great that Ashes will have some tab-target abilities and some active target abilities. Giving individual players more options for playing how they prefer to play.
It is great if both playstyles are in balance, but easily there can be problems where other is superior over other. Usually this means that even you want to play non-targeting, you should not, because it is more efficient and easier to go with tab-targeting.
Really is all about how players prefer to play. Easier tab-target will steal all the fun away for many people, so they will focus on action controls. Some of us greatly prefer action abilities over tab-target abilities. And I am a casual-challenge player.
Many people will prefer tab-target abilities. And some will feel reliant upon tab-target abilities.
Which is why the devs are giving us options.
True. If devs manage to balance non-targeting and tab-targeting, then there is no problem at all and i am personally fine with it. I am still concerned, because it is not easy to balance those two playstyles and if either turns out superior over another, then i guess a lot of players will feel deceived from false marketing. It is not enough if you have a change to choose targeting, if you can't be competitive with it.
Comments
Perhaps our conceptions of skill are different, which makes this conversation more complicated.
I view player skill as the ability to adapt to different situations.
You seem to view player skill as their ability to play out a routine.
I do think my conception makes for more interesting game play. The question is whether routine can be avoided in a game analysed to death.
Ahhh then I must have misread and misinterpreted that, my bad
And actually I support the idea of adaptation, Action -> Reaction. If that type of game play is incorporated into the combat gameplay I am all for it.
Usually that's how I play my RPG's, especially when I am defeated in PVP, I immediately start thinking :
- what went wrong and at what stage?
- could I have avoided the situation?
- could I have countered the enemy?
- Should I have used a different skill?
- was my positioning off?
etc.
It is also one of the reason why I really like the pvp in the Souls series, if a person just repeats a routine it creates predictability which in turn allows the opponent to easily counter it.
I agree that part of the skill is the ability of adaption; However I also view skill on the micro level, for example the ability to place a well timed skill shot, or to dodge an enemy attack while simultaneously already positioning oneself for an optimal attack.
I think there will always be a certain routine, you cannot escape it, just like you cannot escape meta setups. However if the tools are given for players to switch up and surprise or bait their enemies into certain actions that would be great.
And for that they will need to ensure that your point of :
- Rotations are not linear and not reliably the best thing to do always.
needs to be solved, However I do think that the combat system needs to be fleshed out more before it can be seen if that problem is present, and if it is how it can be solved.
About the difficulty of PvE content. There does not need to be one specific mode and it can be implemented way, that there is plenty of options where difficulty changes. The game can offer players choises to take part in content they want to. If they choose to do easier quests in close areas, then they will progress longer and will get lesser rewards, than those who goes to deepest dungeons somewhere far away beyond mountains. There can be anything between those two extremes if IS are willing to cater wide playerbase.
I personally would like to see some challenge and totally faceroll content will only lead to boredom. If IS can offer somehow scaled dificulty, so everyone can enjoy the game they want to, then i guess they have managed very well.
My Ranger, if I build the character so, should be better at aiming than I am.
My Rogue, if I build my character so, should be better at hiding in shadows than I am.
That's why the characters have stats and special abilities and gear that support those stats and special abilities.
Same for spotting hidden paths and disarming magical obstacles.
Which is why it's great that Ashes will have some tab-target abilities and some active target abilities. Giving individual players more options for playing how they prefer to play.
2. Making skills 'situational' and/or 'environmentally dependant' means always using the same skill, in the same place, at the same time, would not only be inefficient but downright dangerous.
3. Making skills 'tuned' to certain target builds could have both a positive and negative impact in that enemy. So deploying the wrong skills against the wrong person could also be inefficient or downright dangerous. (NOTE feedback is essential so identification must not be obfuscated here for racial/class weaknesses/strengths).
The opposite of skill is ignorance. Punishing ignorance is just as effective as promoting skill. They can and should go hand in hand IMHO. Its all part of understanding not just your build, but how it interacts with the environment in which it exists.
I do have a couple of questions
- What do you exactly mean with the RNG timing mechanism of a skill shot?
- And how would you see the feedback you mark out as essential in point 3?
On a side note I was recently playing Diablo 3 (god knows why XD), a game which is heavily dependent on gear, and while playing I found an item which directly made the game trivial I was suddenly one shotting almost everything. It was such an unsatisfying feeling when I noticed that the outcome of battle was determined by a bunch of numbers
I am glad that game does not have open world pvp, that would have been a disaster.
This also made think about certain things like dodge an block being tied to statistics. I am hoping that Ashes will have active damage mitigation, where the success of avoiding and mitigating damage is reliant on the player, and not a on a bunch of numbers.
Again thank you for the info!
While I would have personally preferred that dodging and blocking be available to all skill sets. None the less the proposed systems seem interesting, and I curious about the final implementation.
The 3rd part is where certain skills would have a greater impact in specific classes or races if they have weaknesses that differentiate them that can be capitalized upon. Like a fire mage maybe familiar with fire magic and relatively immune, but ice magic in contrast, they would be highly susceptible to such damage in an amplified way.
Easier tab-target will steal all the fun away for many people, so they will focus on action controls.
Some of us greatly prefer action abilities over tab-target abilities.
And I am a casual-challenge player.
Many people will prefer tab-target abilities.
And some will feel reliant upon tab-target abilities.
Which is why the devs are giving us options.