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Diminishing Returns on CC
ArchivedUser
Guest
So it was mentioned that they wanted to have Diminishing Returns (DR) on CC in the game because being stun-locked for 20 seconds while you get beaten to death is no fun, and I agree fully with this. Now, it was not talked much about what way they wanted DR to work for CC and that is what I thought maybe could be discussed. While I think that having DR on CC is good and promotes more skill than no-DR, it isn't very much if all CC is on the same DR. I think it is important to have different types of CC, some that share the same DR and some that don't, do have classes and abilites synergize with each other.
Some different types of CC:
Stuns - This should be, imo, the ONLY full loss of control of a character that they can still be attacked through, the stronges CC. And all stuns should share DR and the duration of stuns should be relatively short. (Knockdown/knockup effects used in some games, from what I can tell is the same thing as a stun)
Break-on-Damage - This is a pretty common variant of CC, where the target stands in place, completely incapable of doing anything for the duration but any damage will break it.
Chance-to-Break - Usually tied to Fear type effect, where the target runs away in a random direction with a total loss of control like above, but with a chance to break on damage.
Silence - Stops the one under the effect of Silence from casting any magic spells.
Disarm - Stops the one under the effect from casting anything that requires their weapon, usually melee abilities.
Roots - Stops any movement but still allows one to cast and use abilities.
Slows - Reduces movement speed by the one under the effect. I do not think these should be part of the DR. But I think they should be designed so heavy slows are not extremely common and don't have too high uptime. Keep them low up-time and heavy or high up-time and low reduction.
Feel free to add more. These are the ones I could think of from the top of my head.
I think it is good to have different CC durations for PvP and PvE. Having an ability that lasts 30sec on a NPC but 10sec on players. Or have an upper limit to how long a single spell can put a player in CC.
Another thing I think is important with CC and their DR is transparency of what DR's with what. Have the language be clear on the tooltip as well as some type on indication in game signifying if it is a stun or other effect. I am not saying to remove all animation and spell effects for it and make it one, but if a Mage freezes someone in ice and that is a stun, have there be some kind of indicator telling you it is a stun as well as the entire ice thing. Clarity is important imo.
One last thing, that I think some may very much disagree with. Have different groups of DR for the same type of CC, specifically for the Chance-on-Break stuff I would say. I think it is ok and even good to have CC's that are technically the same but do not share DR, especially between certain classes. So Polymorph and Sleep spells effectively do the same thing, but do not share DR. It promotes class cross-play and skill. Have certain spells with quirks about them, with slight alterations and additions to how they work or certain classes with access to a CC which does not DR with any other CC.
Some different types of CC:
Stuns - This should be, imo, the ONLY full loss of control of a character that they can still be attacked through, the stronges CC. And all stuns should share DR and the duration of stuns should be relatively short. (Knockdown/knockup effects used in some games, from what I can tell is the same thing as a stun)
Break-on-Damage - This is a pretty common variant of CC, where the target stands in place, completely incapable of doing anything for the duration but any damage will break it.
Chance-to-Break - Usually tied to Fear type effect, where the target runs away in a random direction with a total loss of control like above, but with a chance to break on damage.
Silence - Stops the one under the effect of Silence from casting any magic spells.
Disarm - Stops the one under the effect from casting anything that requires their weapon, usually melee abilities.
Roots - Stops any movement but still allows one to cast and use abilities.
Slows - Reduces movement speed by the one under the effect. I do not think these should be part of the DR. But I think they should be designed so heavy slows are not extremely common and don't have too high uptime. Keep them low up-time and heavy or high up-time and low reduction.
Feel free to add more. These are the ones I could think of from the top of my head.
I think it is good to have different CC durations for PvP and PvE. Having an ability that lasts 30sec on a NPC but 10sec on players. Or have an upper limit to how long a single spell can put a player in CC.
Another thing I think is important with CC and their DR is transparency of what DR's with what. Have the language be clear on the tooltip as well as some type on indication in game signifying if it is a stun or other effect. I am not saying to remove all animation and spell effects for it and make it one, but if a Mage freezes someone in ice and that is a stun, have there be some kind of indicator telling you it is a stun as well as the entire ice thing. Clarity is important imo.
One last thing, that I think some may very much disagree with. Have different groups of DR for the same type of CC, specifically for the Chance-on-Break stuff I would say. I think it is ok and even good to have CC's that are technically the same but do not share DR, especially between certain classes. So Polymorph and Sleep spells effectively do the same thing, but do not share DR. It promotes class cross-play and skill. Have certain spells with quirks about them, with slight alterations and additions to how they work or certain classes with access to a CC which does not DR with any other CC.
0
Comments
fast move speed < > slow move speed
long root duration <> short root duration
long pull distance <> short pull distance
long push distance <> short push distance
etc..
One person can buff in stages the other can debuff in stages but they adjust one dualistic counter.
How strong the effect is depends on how many times the buff/debuff is applied without counter buff/debuff.
It forces the players to choose between spending resource and time on damage/heals or CC.
It allows classes to have a bonus base bias to define their strengths and weaknesses.
It invokes tactical resource management.
It ensures there is nothing like stun lock, as stun lock is a choice at the players failure to respond.
I would also like to see one (or more) of the basic character stats having an influence on duration. Potentially even a different stat for different CC types - ie high strength characters (player and NPC) are able to break out of a root faster, high agility characters are able to regain their weapon faster after a disarm, high constitution characters don't get knocked down as far, high intelligence characters are able to deal with silence better etc.
This would allow for two things. First, it would mean that all stats are of value to all players (especially true if NPC's use CC as well). Second, it would mean that players wouldn't be able to come up with a way to CC lock characters to the extent they can in other games as CC duration could vary wildly.
It would make CC something to use situationally in PvP rather than as the foundation of your strategy - which is how I personally think CC in PvP should be used.
Having counters and blocks is not necessarily a bad idea, and is not mutually exclusive with such a system.
Preach away :thumbsup:
+1
Preach away :thumbsup:
+1
Preach away :thumbsup:
+1
Most importantly....every challenge/player you face is unique.
You wont be able to deploy the same tactics all the time.
You will have to mix it up and adapt or die.
If there are cc durration reducing stats and/or passive talents, then 10s is fine too, but otherwise it's too long.
Also for stuns, it shouldn't be more than 6s anyway.
Also cc's should be relativly rare, as they should be a tactical ability, not a spammable ability.
Single target instant cc's should have a cd around 30s-60s.
AOE cc's should last for only a short amount of time in PvP ~3s with high cd.
CC will always be foundational in PvP, locking a key target down (say a healer) while you try and take out his buddy is CC 101 and very much strategical and situational as you need to set it up to use at the right time. But these kind of lockdowns should be something you need teamwork to do, not something a single person should be able to pull off really.
The max duration of a CC I think depends a lot on the pace of the game, especially the Time-to-Kill. But I very much agree on that a single stun should not be as long of a duration as CC that can break.
I do not think being able to CC lock someone is bad. But it has to require skill to do and there needs to be ways to counter it. Stun locking someone to death is not as ok thought.