On cosmetics and immersion

ArchivedUser

As I'm sure the whole planet is aware by now, the cosmetic selections for March caused a bit of an uproar. Concerns over the Stuffertons mount seemed to be the biggest point of contention we had at the time. I am not insensitive to the concerns raised by any means, however I feel there is another side to the issue.

There are an not insignificant number of us who really liked the mount and other items in those packs(and necro too). It fits MY immersion perfectly. Stuffertons is why I'm here. Enter the April cosmetics and we have a very traditional approach to fantasy items. They are very well done pieces, but it is clear that the controversy over last month influenced the selections. The coloration is devoid of anything "flashy" like bright reds or yellows. And this is fine.

What I am concerned about is that, going forward, we will never again see anything like March. I strongly feel that while such items should be uncommon, they should not be excluded entirely from the shop. Thank you for reading.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

As I'm sure the whole planet is aware by now, the cosmetic selections for March caused a bit of an uproar. Concerns over the Stuffertons mount seemed to be the biggest point of contention we had at the time. I am not insensitive to the concerns raised by any means, however I feel there is another side to the issue.

There are an not insignificant number of us who really liked the mount and other items in those packs(and necro too). It fits MY immersion perfectly. Stuffertons is why I'm here. Enter the April cosmetics and we have a very traditional approach to fantasy items. They are very well done pieces, but it is clear that the controversy over last month influenced the selections. The coloration is devoid of anything "flashy" like bright reds or yellows. And this is fine.

What I am concerned about is that, going forward, we will never again see anything like March. I strongly feel that while such items should be uncommon, they should not be excluded entirely from the shop. Thank you for reading.

Do you consider WoW to be a good game?

ArchivedUser

That month's cosmetics reminded me of old school fantasy, whimsical and unpredictable. Rather than the Grim Dark aesthetic many other competitors to ashes are choosing. I appreciate when lore isn't rehashed ideas I've come to expect out of mmos in the modern era.

ArchivedUser

 I rate this thread 8/10 already

ArchivedUser

Make Whimsy Great Again!

ArchivedUser

I will state that a lot of hate went into the Feb packages, because a majority of players found it dealing a blow to the immersion that intrepid had decided to go with from KS. 

I can understand wanting/having fun items in game, but there's a fine line between that and full blown nonsense, example BDO costumes etc. I think a large majority was fine with the bear after the lore was explained by Steven. I cant speak for everyone but I think having a tougher stance on fun items is one way to make sure we don't see the whole community and game going to weird weeb like things. 

People should have the right to fun items/cosmetics but I stress that it should be limited, or else the flood gates will open up and it will turn off a lot players. Point is have fun cosmetics maybe limit them, doesn't always need always hardcore fantasy, can sprinkle a bit of fun in now and again. 

ArchivedUser

gundel said:

I will state that a lot of hate went into the Feb packages, because a majority of players found it dealing a blow to the immersion that intrepid had decided to go with from KS. 

I can understand wanting/having fun items in game, but there's a fine line between that and full blown nonsense, example BDO costumes etc. I think a large majority was fine with the bear after the lore was explained by Steven. I cant speak for everyone but I think having a tougher stance on fun items is one way to make sure we don't see the whole community and game going to weird weeb like things. 

People should have the right to fun items/cosmetics but I stress that it should be limited, or else the flood gates will open up and it will turn off a lot players. Point is have fun cosmetics maybe limit them, doesn't always need always hardcore fantasy, can sprinkle a bit of fun in now and again. 

Rather have fun game & content than "fun" items. Are they even really that much fun? Yay a fire work! *launch* *explode* 

*Gee wiz that was so much fun!"

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:
Rather have fun game & content than "fun" items. Are they even really that much fun? Yay a fire work! *launch* *explode* 

*Gee wiz that was so much fun!"

Come now proxy, we are discussing cosmetic items which will have resources spent to create them regardless of the aesthetic theme involved with them. Nothing I said here will in any way impact their ability to create content for the game.

Kandy said:

 I rate this thread 8/10 already

Scout's honor this isn't a troll! I'm sure my opinion on this stuff has been articulated enough by now that my sincerity is known.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

DeathsProxy said:
Rather have fun game & content than "fun" items. Are they even really that much fun? Yay a fire work! *launch* *explode* 

*Gee wiz that was so much fun!"

Come now proxy, we are discussing cosmetic items which will have resources spent to create them regardless of the aesthetic theme involved with them. Nothing I said here will in any way impact their ability to create content for the game.

Kandy said:

 I rate this thread 8/10 already

Scout's honor this isn't a troll! I'm sure my opinion on this stuff has been articulated enough by now that my sincerity is known.

Then I would say creating the aesthetic, the theme and the world as a whole (not to be confused with immersion argument), as well as establishing the games IP would be far more important than fun items currently.

Intrepid is trying to create a franchise. When you compare to any mass create franchise especially their first games, or at launch, there is little to no fun items. This is because the focus is usually on creating the world itself, the feeling and its general aesthetic, usually surrounding its lore. This establishes a universe for a fanbase, or more specifically a player base for form around. 

Once a franchise is effective and successfully created, fun items created off loving and icon "mascots" are then the ideal choice, and would often result in more sales, as its easier for the fan base to relate to the product they are selling.

For example, The Iconic and loveable Cactus's from the FF series was not something that existed in earlier iterations, in fact Looking at FF1/FF2/FF3 (Japanese versions) the concept of a "fun" item didn't exist.  After some success, "fun" things were introduced slowly over time, but those fun things were also associated with iconic mascots. 

If you are making a franchise that's the smart thing to do as it creates an emotional connection between the fanbase and the said "mascot". That gives it a meaningful relationship. A relatable link.

Final Fantasy has Annoying Cactus, Chocobo's and  Moogles and Espers/Aeons/Summoner. A running theme created over time.

You claim the current cosmetics are "vanilla", but the game should launch will a strong sense of vanilla. That's the base founding for all the other interesting flavors to come later.

ArchivedUser

Proxy I agree with your statements, I am all for serious fantasy over the fun items, but I was just looking at both sides of the fence, and saying if they sprinkled in "fun" items it would be okay to a small degree. Meaning very little fun items should be created at least until Ashes has a stable community, etc.

I am not a fan of the "fun" items I agree that Intrepid is trying to create a franchise and they need to sell the idea's, concepts of the world and node system along with the other systems in Ashes before they should spend energy on "fun cosmetics". 

I understand that will make some people who enjoy the "fun items" will not enjoy it as much but this is a harsh reality that Intrepid stated earlier in their development. They said they didn't want to go down the road like BDO for cosmetics, being immersion breaking etc. 

I think intrepid going back to more of a serious fantasy style is the right move.

ArchivedUser

gundel said:

Proxy I agree with your statements, I am all for serious fantasy over the fun items, but I was just looking at both sides of the fence, and saying if they sprinkled in "fun" items it would be okay to a small degree. Meaning very little fun items should be created at least until Ashes has a stable community, etc.

As I said, I just don't want them to remove stuff like that entirely from the list of things on offer. A small number is fine by me, so long as it isn't zero while the players who dislike that stuff are showered with over 100 cosmetics or more by the time launch arrives. We can't just ignore a segment of players because the majority wants to veto their concept of immersion. Though ultimately the decision is up to Intrepid.

ArchivedUser

I do agree with @DeathsProxy 's video on the subject matter. I think it is important to set these items in the game's universe and give it a tone. Like making the stufferton mount a magical toy factory kind of golem mass produced to serve as kid-friendly bodyguards.

One of my biggest annoyances was the pax colonialist items that don't mesh with a high fantasy medieval-esque game. Now if they want their tone all over the place, the game isn't going to have much of an identity. I would like them to develop their IP. 

I would really like to know what this game is going to be aesthetically. It'll be weird to see a Tank in full plate knight armor riding his stuffed mount to his swanboat to sail over to his cupcake stand. Then his mage buddy to hop on his colonial-era ship to the nearby castle.

ArchivedUser

I much prefer a game where the items we wear look like they are up to the task we are performing in them.

I'm personally fine with a fashion show in town, but when out fighting it is all about function.

On the other hand, I am personally fine with them adding any cosmetic items at all to the game - as long as players have the client side option to disable each item. That way players like the OP can make-believe that AoC is WoW, and the rest of us can carry on killing them.

ArchivedUser

I didn't mind the stufferton at all, and Imo the lore fit quite well into the ashes world. What I do however hope for, is for more context added into the game, so that the Stufferton has a purpose other than just being slapped into it, for the fun of it.

But yeah I bought one, mostly just to piss off those that freaked out over it.

ArchivedUser

When I bought into the game I was promised a harsh unforgiving world with consequences.
Where death can come from any corner at any time and come with penalties too.
Turning the game into a children's playground does not reflect that.
Intrepid need to establish an identity and stick to it.
I thought they had a clear identity at the time of KS.
Clearly I was wrong.

Now I cant speak for everyone else, but if stuffitin for instance would have been a children's toy a la pet style, I could probably have made the stretch to barely acceptable and begrudgingly accepted Intrepid were walking on a razor blade.
But a damn mount riding into battle ? Really ?
I have no idea what they were thinking, but it was so far removed from what I and many other people were thinking the action had the result it did.

ArchivedUser

Much has been made of supposed promises during kickstarter about the aesthetic of the world not including things such as those in the March pack. Where was this stated? Is it simply a case of looking at the items offered before and drawing the conclusion that nothing shinier ever would be, or were actual statements against these sorts of items made directly? 

And while some may have bought into the concept of Ashes based on an idea this stuff would not exist, I bought into it based on the fact that it would. One is not inherently more valid than the other.

ArchivedUser

There should be room for both banter, and seriousness in the world. As long as the mount fits into the ashes world, I have no complaints

ArchivedUser

There is a battle with fire everywhere and sharp edges to slice through stuff.
And you are going to ride into battle on a tinder stuffed mount with effectively cloth armour ?
I can picture now the 300 spartans in that narrow defile wearing one piece teddy bear outfits to scare their enemies to death and wielding mighty plastic squeaky hammers of destiny with wicker basket shields.

I have no objection to fun and humour created by the players.
I have no objection to cute stuff that remains personal.
Thats not the same thing as creating a farcical game.

Your idea of immersion is a farce....a parody. It is one I and many others simply do not share.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

There is a battle with fire everywhere and sharp edges to slice through stuff.
And you are going to ride into battle on a tinder stuffed mount with effectively cloth armour ?

The character on top could just as easily be in cloth armor, subject to all of the same issues as the mount. Best not to overthink realism, even in a game which strives to achieve it.

Your idea of immersion is a farce....a parody. It is one I and many others simply do not share.

And I understand that, but I'm not trying to convince you here. My objective is to make Intrepid aware that your view is not the only one. I doubt I would ever be able to persuade you to enjoy any of this stuff by any means.

ArchivedUser

I am not into buying any cosmetics at all because it breaks immersion for me. Why would my character have something he didn't earn? 

ArchivedUser

If people started to really look into immersion then half of this stuff would be gone, it's a fantasy game where a lot is possible. Personally I was not a huge fan of the bear from the previous package but I do not abhor it just because it seems unimmersive at the end of the day this is a game it can't be immersive in every way possible.

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

If people started to really look into immersion then half of this stuff would be gone, it's a fantasy game where a lot is possible. Personally I was not a huge fan of the bear from the previous package but I do not abhor it just because it seems unimmersive at the end of the day this is a game it can't be immersive in every way possible.

It's worth noting that we have a winged mount up in the shop, that can't actually FLY, and the sole reason for that is based on gameplay and not lore(as far as we know). I'm obviously willing to overlook that however, even though a mount named "sky's vengeance" with a description "death from above" is seriously immersion breaking when it doesn't actually fly.

ArchivedUser

I guess what I am trying to say is ..in my admittedly prejudicial opinion....you seek entertainment not immersion.
You love the entertainment value of such items.

I too see their entertainment value, but I do not consider such things immersive...quite the contrary.
Its like watching Ted the movie. Its entertainment value is immense, in a very silly kind of way, which takes parody to new levels.
I appreciate that and I laugh my arse off with everyone else no doubt.
But I do not consider it immersive at all.
I am not in that world and a part of it....I am just along for the ride.

And this is what the fundamental problem is IMHO...not the fact people consider they have a different sense of immersion...but they seek to break it for entertainments sake.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

I guess what I am trying to say is ..in my admittedly prejudicial opinion....you seek entertainment not immersion.
You love the entertainment value of such items.

You raise a good point. It may help to offer some context on my prior MMO, and my character concept in it. In WoW, my entire playstyle revolved around using cosmetics to their maximum potential, especially size increasing effects. I would classify the influence I could have on a zone(s) as well into what is normally limited to game masters in other titles with better QA.

I played a sort of circus act, or entertainer/magician type of character. So for me, immersion and entertainment value are actually very closely linked. 

I know Ashes is NOT WoW, nor do I wish it to be. The things I did there will probably never be possible here. Just understand that a fantasy world can achieve immersion in many ways. Silly does not necessarily mean immersion has been broken, IF the world and lore support what is going on.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

There is a battle with fire everywhere and sharp edges to slice through stuff.
And you are going to ride into battle on a tinder stuffed mount with effectively cloth armour ?
I can picture now the 300 spartans in that narrow defile wearing one piece teddy bear outfits to scare their enemies to death and wielding mighty plastic squeaky hammers of destiny with wicker basket shields.

I have no objection to fun and humour created by the players.
I have no objection to cute stuff that remains personal.
Thats not the same thing as creating a farcical game.

Your idea of immersion is a farce....a parody. It is one I and many others simply do not share.

Magic is magic.
A mount that has the appearance of a stuffed bear could be highly resistant to fire.
There will be plenty of mounts that have fur "armor". Cloth armor can also be enchanted to be just as resistant to damage as plate mail.

Immersion in a high fantasy setting means accepting that some mages may do whimsical things, like building gingerbread houses or riding "toy" mounts.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Immersion in a high fantasy setting means accepting that some mages may do whimsical things, like building gingerbread houses or riding "toy" mounts.

I agree with your statement @Dygz
Lets keep an open mind and see what they put on the table during the next testing phases. 

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Immersion in a high fantasy setting means accepting that some mages may do whimsical things, like building gingerbread houses or riding "toy" mounts.

Exactly, as long as it doesn't feel disconnetced from the world, stuffertons could be awesome

ArchivedUser

Stuffington clearly rips off Winnie the Pooh imo.

ArchivedUser

Each month (or months as in Dec/Jan & Feb/March) are themed as far as I can tell.  And this month's theme is Easter, holy, white, pure, new life, etc... where's last two month's was valentine's day, so chocolates, teddy bears, hearts, swan love boats, marriage.  

ArchivedUser

Elderborn said:

Each month (or months as in Dec/Jan & Feb/March) are themed as far as I can tell.  And this month's theme is Easter, holy, white, pure, new life, etc... where's last two month's was valentine's day, so chocolates, teddy bears, hearts, swan love boats, marriage.  

This is a god point. I got so caught up in eggs and bunnies that I never considered alternatives that were still Easter themed. Christmas and the Fourth of July will be very interesting. I'd say Halloween, but we kinda got that with Necro pack.

ArchivedUser

I'd say the Dec/Jan pack was our Christmas chance.  But Intrepid knew not give us red nosed reindeer mounts and caravan skins that were sleds with presents.  Instead they focused on the pagan aspect of Christmas, the idea of death in winter and rebirth of a new year in New Year's Day and gave us Necro themed stuff. 

I was a bit on the ropes with stufferftons, but I purchased everything in the February pack because it's when my birthday is.  Overall, I'd say they took a modest approach and are adding twist to each month's theme so that these packs will not break or ruin AoC's identity.  I want to purchase this month's stuff as well, but I must practice will power. > <