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Bard balancing

ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
edited April 2018 in Ashes of Creation Design
Dunno if this is the right time or place, but I posted about this as a reply on Reddit and thought I'd just throw the idea out here. Let me first state that I am not planning to play a Bard so I'm writing this as an onlooker.

TLDR; basically make bards easier to balance in groups (and possibly solo play without losing its identity), by having buffs have an amount of power, which is equally divided among recipients (and balancable seperately for group/solo play).

Recent comments were made on how Bards are probably going to be effective without becoming buffbots; by relying on landing skills to be able to buff. With this information there is still another issue, namely the fact that buffs become more powerful the larger a group is, meaning 4-5 people will have a less combined 'use' for buffs than a group of 6-8. Limiting the amount of people that can receive a buff brings whole different issues; not landing on the 'right' people will impact effectivity severely.

Balancing buffers is a problem in many games, making them either mandatory or irrelevant in (raid)groups. When talking raidbuffs, this becomes an infinitely larger problem. Even if buffs are per group and not per raid, an overtuned Bard might become mandatory, needing one in every single group, or an undertuned Bard may not have any use at all in the raid.

To combat this issue something came to mind:
The Bard's buff skills have a certain power potential to add. This power is equally divided between all appropriate recipients.

Mind that this came to mind mostly to work mechanically. I have no idea how to make it work flavour wise when it comes to soloing.

More reasoning behind this:
  • This way buff skills can be more easily balanced around the goal of making a Bard on average about as valuable as any other class in (raid)groups, without number of affected players making a difference in effective power.
  • This allows (as with any class) to have good play be rewarded; be more valuable by getting more buffs off by landing skills and/or synergising which buff skills you use with the available classes in the (raid)group.
This might also provide a solution if solo design is an issue; if specific solo abilities need to be created to make soloing relevant, they are likely so strong that with the right combination of solo abilities and buffs, the Bard might become overtuned and balancing might mean either making buffs irrelevant in groups or making solo play unviable. So, if this suggestion (or similar) is used:
  • When the Bard is playing solo, all the potential within the buff is placed onto the Bard. The total solo skill power can be different from the group/raid power and with that be more easily balanced around the goal of making the Bard relevant in solo play.
  • This makes it possible to meaningfully use the same buffs in solo play, without (possibly) losing class identity or making the Bard overpowered in either solo or group/raid play.
Well it's just a suggestion, maybe I'm overseeing some huge issue(s), but if it helps result in a good solution or better ideas, I'm happy too!

Edit: words etc.

Comments

  • The way I understand what you posted is that solo and aoe bards may become overpowered as a buff bot to their own skills.

    To me as long as they/group only put out the same DPS/HPS/MPS...how they go about that doesnt matter. Balance is maintained.

    So the bards base damage/heals/mitigation might suck. But they could utilize their single target OR AoE buffs to compensate. While using the single target buffs, their SOLO DPS/MPS/HPS is comparable. While using AoE buffs, their personal damage sucks...thus keeping the same overall DPS that is provided by the the group buff to their DPS.
    The Total Group DPS/MPS/HPS remains the same. What changes is how its deployed. Different group playstyle. Same effect.
    eg. in a 4 man group adding 10% Efficiency to 3 other players while removing 30% efficiency from yourself. This may seem nuts, except where the other 3 players have access to all the enemies and you are stuck in a cage doing nothing.
    On the other hand there may be many ranged adds that cant be grouped where players should probably split and go 1v1. In that case you want your full strength back.
  • If that is a real issue, the solo/group mode could be switched with stances. This allows flexibility between having balanced group buffs and powering yourself up when the situation requires it.
  • The notion that all buffs are group based seems to be the root of the perceived issues here.

    Take a simple buff as an example; cast on one character in group, lasts 5 seconds, 30 second recast. Effect; doubles the damage, taunt or healing of any spells cast but leaves the character (unless cast on caster) with a 90 second immunity to the specific buff once the 5 seconds has finished. (EQ2 players will no doubt understand this basic concept).

    Suddenly you have a buff that is as valuable to a group of 4 as it is to a raid of 40. On top of that, it is a valuable buff to the bard while soloing.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    The balance problem is, this makes a bard a must to take on a raid. Flat increasing or even doubling power for *everyone* makes a Bard a lot more valuable in a 8 man group than 4 man; doubling 8 people’s effectivity results in the bard being ‘worth’ 8 people, while in a 4 man group only being worth 4. Even worse so in case of a raidwide buff the bard is worth 40 extra people in effectivity. While alone it only gives him 1 (probably relatively weak) extra person of power, making solo play annoying and feel unrewarding.

    That is a hell to balance so any other class can compete for a spot with a bard in even an 8 man group, where the 8 man group would be crazy not to reserve one spot for any bard. Hell, would probably pay bards to go with the group because there are so few bards!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    HypaH said:
    The balance problem is, this makes a bard a must to take on a raid. Flat increasing or even doubling power for *everyone* makes a Bard a lot more valuable in a 8 man group than 4 man; doubling 8 people’s effectivity results in the bard being ‘worth’ 8 people, while in a 4 man group only being worth 4. Even worse so in case of a raidwide buff the bard is worth 40 extra people in effectivity. While alone it only gives him 1 (probably relatively weak) extra person of power, making solo play annoying and feel unrewarding.

    That is a hell to balance so any other class can compete for a spot with a bard in even an 8 man group, where the 8 man group would be crazy not to reserve one spot for any bard. Hell, would probably pay bards to go with the group because there are so few bards!
    Not at all true.

    If you read the description of the buff I gave, it lasts 5 seconds and has a 30 second recast. This means it is active on one character at a time, and is up for 16.65% of the time at the absolute most.

    This is not a hard class to balance, and a good portion of the developers of AoC have already worked on a game that did exactly that (which is where the buff I described above came from - I wasn't giving a hypothetical).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    The reason I came up with this, is that it was indicated that to make buffs work (in AoC), you for instance land skill shots to make gameplay interactive as opposed to passive. That means you don't actively target specific people, unless an additional mechanic is added to define a target beforehand or afterwards, which will possibly make it complicated. But admitted not impossible.

    However, is the Bard only going to have one (or several) single target buffs?

    Regarding balance, you named EQ2 as an example earlier. If that's the game you are also referring to now regarding balance, every time I played EQ2 there was never a true balance. Especially for the mandatory buffers required for raids. There was always one or more classes severly out-performing others within the same role as well. Not to mention the constant 'looking for dirge' when people are making groups.

    I think (and hope) that AoC aims to prevent this.

    Edit: clarification
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    No game ever has true balance, but over the years EQ2 had good over all balance (barring top end content in the first 9 months or so). And yeah, a lot of top end raids took 4 bards on raids where perfect balance would suggest only taking 2, but it was never a requirement and raids would function perfectly well with just two bards.

    Buffs tied to other skills and such are a potential thing, but only potential and not in any way are the intended to be the only means for buffs to exist.

    Edit; the reason most top end raids in EQ2 took a bard for each of the four groups was more to do with the DPS classes wanting the buffs to increase personal damage within the raid so they could show their class peers how awesome they are. The raid wan't necessarily better off because they were all there (it wasn't worse off, either), but the individual players were far better off with them there.

    As for group content, there wasn't a single zone where a bard was needed in the 8 years I played the game. Some people liked to have them there, sure, but that was more for the same reason as above... no one ever avoided group content due to lack of a bard.
  • Guys c'mon, i understand the concern but talk about this after the rest of the class abilities have been revealed
  • Their beats are too phunky phresh, and their rhymes too hot. 
    Plz nerf.  
  • i think the real issue is thinking bards are gonna be buff based when we haven't even seen anything on this games bards. . . they haven't really been following the norm so far so what makes one think they're going to with these?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I would like to see the Bard Archetype to not have abilities similar to the Mage. I'd rather like to see the Bard be more like a Manipulator ... almost like a Counter-active-Playstyle And have abilities that don't require a Range-limit and/or Parameter Limit

    Same goes for Ranger, but only in regards to being able to " Snipe " a target from far away due to the Bow & Arrow

    ( and considering any natural "wind-blowing-mechanics" that could alter its path )

    With the classic instrumental notes being something that the Player can create via learning some Musical Notes and/or In-game lore, " special " musical notes 
  • really hoping that makes sense xD
  • Eragale said:
    I would like to see the Bard Archetype not have abilities similar the Mage. I'd rather like to see the Bard be more like a Manipulator
    i could most def. see that especially with archetype names like charlatan and soul weaver, but i do hope they have elements of mysticism even if not "magic" as we would normally see it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Telonius
    I thought of other fictions to help me think about the Bard tbh. And I personally feel the Bard is more than just a Musician.
    i.e. also a Manipulator


  • We will have to see how their buff system works but I understand your concern :naughty:
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