Levelling only through Profession

ArchivedUser

Dear all,

there's a lot of criticism about MMORPGs being only (or mainly) about violence and killing stuff. Ashes does sound to focus the economical side of gameplay quite a lot - see e.g. the essential role of caravans or that it will be traceable who crafted what.
So I was wandering if you could enable players to actually not do anything else than gathering and crafting and trading?

Actually, I don't think it should be too difficult to integrate that: the main point would possibly be that gathering and crafting should give you enough experience. Maybe that can also be achieved by a good amount of respective quests.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this! 

ArchivedUser

Your combat class progression and your artisan profession progression are separate. As far as I understand it crafting, gathering, or processing will increase your artisan skill and combat and quests involving combat will level your combat level (your character level).You do not necessarily ever have to fight, but your combat level will not go up. Theoretically, you could be an expert crafter without leveling up. Your player level is just to tell people how strong you are; it is strictly for combat and adventuring. If a person just wants to craft, they are free to do so. Nothing is stopping them; they just won't level.
That being said, it will be hard for a gatherer not to level as there are monsters that disguise themselves as flowers and other gathering materials.

I am not entirely certain of some of these things though. We know that gathering gives experience to the node, so to me that suggests a player will also gain experience from it. Whether that means combat level experience or artisan experience is what confuses me because we do not know how exactly we progress through the artisan trees. Do we just gather/process/craft until we reach a level threshold (like traditional leveling) and get points to spend on upgrades? Or is it by doing things you just naturally get better at them? I have no clue.

Edit: A game that does something similar is Runescape. In Runescape you have a combat level and a total skill level. The combat level is only increased by increasing your combat skills (Attack, Defense, Strength, Ranged, and Magic I believe), but any other skill you leveled up, and most of them were crafting skills, increased only your total skill level. So you could potentially be a combat level 3 (That is the starting combat level in Runescape) with level 99 (the highest level a skill can get to) Cooking.

ArchivedUser

Like @Zastro said, Ashes has multiple horizontal progression paths and you could potentially be a master crafter without ever killing any mobs if you choose to.

You could rely on materials from other players and specialize in crafting certain artifacts. Steven has said on multiple occasions that they want mastery in a craft to be very limited and highly sought after. 

ArchivedUser

Steven played Archeage so, at least, he knows there`s a way to do exactly what you said. Maybe they`ve said something about it, i dont know.

I am not the kind of guy who does that but I think its a great idea, they have to please all kind of gamers so, I hope they go that way.

ArchivedUser

They don't have to please all gamers and they aren't trying to... That being said many playstyles will work with ashes and that's just because of game design. However in a pvx game if your fully expecting to not fight anything ever you will be extremely limited as you'll most likely have little or no initial funds to sustain yourself simply from trade. You will most likely be highly encouraged to level your combat class to be able to gather out in the world and not be slaughtered by roaming monsters or players like me intending to control certain resources.

ArchivedUser

I believe some combat will be involved.. possibly even in the tutorial. Although everyone is able to play the game how they want to play it. Make your own path

ArchivedUser

Killing levels your overall stats and combat potential this is perfectly normal while artisans/jobs level their own skills, I mean you dont get stronger because you cook food...

ArchivedUser

Argentdawn said:

They don't have to please all gamers and they aren't trying to... That being said many playstyles will work with ashes and that's just because of game design. However in a pvx game if your fully expecting to not fight anything ever you will be extremely limited as you'll most likely have little or no initial funds to sustain yourself simply from trade. You will most likely be highly encouraged to level your combat class to be able to gather out in the world and not be slaughtered by roaming monsters or players like me intending to control certain resources.

They arent trying to¿ I heard them say they want to and its the obvious way to go. The more people they please the more people plays the game and enjoys it.

Do you think that a player who wants to reach lvl 50 by crafting wont kill any mob¿ Maybe he will level normally till lvl 20 and the rest by gathering,crafting, doing trade runs and other stuff, just like some people did in Archeage. 

He will lvl way slower than most of us of course, but maybe he will have a ton of money and will craft/ buy a nicer armor than yours.

If its a hard thing to implement then of course its not necessary, but if its not, I dont see why are you against pleasing people that play different than us.

Im saying this and I was a pirate PvP lover in Archeage but I like diversity.

ArchivedUser

Quev said:

Argentdawn said:

They don't have to please all gamers and they aren't trying to... That being said many playstyles will work with ashes and that's just because of game design. However in a pvx game if your fully expecting to not fight anything ever you will be extremely limited as you'll most likely have little or no initial funds to sustain yourself simply from trade. You will most likely be highly encouraged to level your combat class to be able to gather out in the world and not be slaughtered by roaming monsters or players like me intending to control certain resources.

They arent trying to¿ I heard them say they want to and its the obvious way to go. The more people they please the more people plays the game and enjoys it.

Do you think that a player who wants to reach lvl 50 by crafting wont kill any mob¿ Maybe he will level normally till lvl 20 and the rest by gathering,crafting, doing trade runs and other stuff, just like some people did in Archeage. 

He will lvl way slower than most of us of course, but maybe he will have a ton of money and will craft/ buy a nicer armor than yours.

If its a hard thing to implement then of course its not necessary, but if its not, I dont see why are you against pleasing people that play different than us.

Im saying this and I was a pirate PvP lover in Archeage but I like diversity.

You are thinking about it the wrong way around.
Ashes will have multiple horizontal progression paths, which means that combat level does not mean crafting level etc.

The "main" progression path to 50 is based around killing mobs, sure, but the crafting progression paths to become a master crafter does not have to necessarily go though combat.

Intrepid wants player choice, you can choose to only focus on combat and PvP/Caravans/Sieges.
Or you can focus 100% on Gathering, Crafting etc.

ArchivedUser

What Zastro said basically. Runescape was similar and same with the Legendary Moonlight Sculptor story if anyones read that

ArchivedUser

Some of us will have characters that never kill mobs: The Carebear Challenge.
We will level through crafting only - whatever that means in Ashes.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Some of us will have characters that never kill mobs: The Carebear Challenge.
We will level through crafting only - whatever that means in Ashes.

Actually no one will be killing mobs. Theyre just part of the game. Intrepid is partnering with  PETA and anyone that kills mobs will have swat come to their house to arrest them

ArchivedUser

Think Sword Art Online or Log Horizon.  Having this feature will allow characters to focus more on specific aspects of the game.  Imagine getting to a point where you need a new weapon and you have an oh crap moment because you realize you haven't leveled your blacksmith skill up enough and now you either have to spend lots of money or go on a grind fest and miss out on adventuring/raids/misc. 

If you think about it the other way, this system would allow for people who enjoy the research/statistical aspects of MMOs to go batshit crazy and have the time of their life.  Not everyone is good at adventuring/raids and some people might only have the time to get on for a few hours a week. This would allow those players to still feel a sense of involvement/accomplishment in the game.  

It's a big deal to try and cater to all types of players so I'm really hoping Intrepid can follow through with this.

ArchivedUser

I think Interepid should have high rewards for leveling up gathering or crafting skills. It would be cool to see a system where it becomes the norm to hire player bodyguards to protect someone who has invested enough time and effort into his or her profession to be a high-value target/asset.

You might disagree with the bodyguard part, but I think we all can agree that there should be a lot of incentive for people to level up professions and skills, as well as a lot of room to progress.

Just some of my thoughts

- Sikuba

ArchivedUser

@Sikuba i'd like to see that as well but whats the point of body guards if hes gonna respawn anyway. Unless you lose crafts experience as well upon death

ArchivedUser

VoidShadow said:

@Sikuba i'd like to see that as well but whats the point of body guards if hes gonna respawn anyway. Unless you lose crafts experience as well upon death

When you die, you lose a portion of your inventory, as well as access to the resources that you were gathering.

What I meant is if you had high enough gathering, and could make enough profit per-trip for it to be worth it, you could hire bodyguards to prevent getting PK'd. I'm not suggesting that the game should actually do that, just that it would be cool to see that in place.

ArchivedUser

Serious patience required haha

ArchivedUser

I'm pretty sure you do get exp, I think I remember Steven talking about it, the thing will be that you are missing the HORIZONTAL Combat progression aka, the advancement in skills itself. You will still get the vertical one aka levels. So you will be max leveled have the skills itself but not the improvements for the skills you get through using it.
I can't remember where it was said tho. Was from quite a while ago for sure.

ArchivedUser

I would like to see leveling system where every aspects needs to progress separately. There can of cource be character's overall level, which is sum up all of your experience. This overall level will unlock mainly general stuff.

ArchivedUser

I think crafting / class progressions can and should be separate and that crafting progression should not be tied to class progression in any way.

If you can sit in your shop and guild members bring you all the mats you need then have at it.  Sounds good for alts; can't see having it for a main BUT to each his/her own.

ArchivedUser

Crymoar said:

I think crafting / class progressions can and should be separate and that crafting progression should not be tied to class progression in any way.

If you can sit in your shop and guild members bring you all the mats you need then have at it.  Sounds good for alts; can't see having it for a main BUT to each his/her own.

What i described at earlier post is quite common style in sandbox games and because Ashes is hybrid of sandbox and themepark i dont see any problems to use that in AoC too. Combat progression does not need to be your characters level, when it can be combination of everything you have done. That will set all career choises to equal position. 

This guild alt system where resources are centralized to few characters just progress faster towards end game gear is something i despise. I really hope devs will pay attention to that or the crafting will be meaningless at invidual level. 

ArchivedUser

Sikuba said:

I think Interepid should have high rewards for leveling up gathering or crafting skills. It would be cool to see a system where it becomes the norm to hire player bodyguards to protect someone who has invested enough time and effort into his or her profession to be a high-value target/asset.

You might disagree with the bodyguard part, but I think we all can agree that there should be a lot of incentive for people to level up professions and skills, as well as a lot of room to progress.

Just some of my thoughts

- Sikuba

I was the Charles Darwin of Wizard101.
I discovered the petnome code that allowed players to consistently breed the pet abilities they wanted for their pets.
Because of that, I was constantly escorted by premiere, max-level PvP group.
Some of their pets did more damage than I did when we grouped, but they didn't care.
I provided more value to the group than direct damage and direct kills - or direct healing or tanking.

I don't think Adventurers need special incentives to level up their professions.
People who wish to do so should able to.
People who wish to focus on Artisan classes should be able to hit max in the Artisan classes before people who divide their focus with combat.
And those Artisans should be gaining rep as the uber master artisans.

I think the point, though, is that stat progression and racial progression and gear progression in the Artisan professions should be comparable to the level progression of an Adventurer.
A 50th Level Blacksmith should have the Strength of a 50th Level Tank.
They should both be able to obtain the racial progression of a 50th Level character.
I don't necessarily think they should be able to wear each other's gear -- I hope the gear is designed so that it wouldn't matter much anyways since the gear supports the abilities of the profession or archetype: 50th Level Aggro Armor is not going to help a Blacksmith and a 50th Level Forge Apron is not going to help a Guardian.

The same death penalties should apply to both Artisans and Adventurers, of course.

ArchivedUser

Sikuba said:

I think Interepid should have high rewards for leveling up gathering or crafting skills. It would be cool to see a system where it becomes the norm to hire player bodyguards to protect someone who has invested enough time and effort into his or her profession to be a high-value target/asset.

You might disagree with the bodyguard part, but I think we all can agree that there should be a lot of incentive for people to level up professions and skills, as well as a lot of room to progress.

Just some of my thoughts

- Sikuba

Crymoar said:

I think crafting / class progressions can and should be separate and that crafting progression should not be tied to class progression in any way.

If you can sit in your shop and guild members bring you all the mats you need then have at it.  Sounds good for alts; can't see having it for a main BUT to each his/her own.

I love both of these ideas.. and also I wouldn't mind selling my services as a body guard.. it'll only help to fill my want to pvp... Not a huge fan of npc body guards. 

As for crymoars idea if one person went out as an adventurer as a miner/smelter (gather/refiner) that leaves the person who doesnt want to pve able to be a full crafter (blacksmith/armorer) and *technically* have little reason to leave shop. 

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Sikuba said:

I think Interepid should have high rewards for leveling up gathering or crafting skills. It would be cool to see a system where it becomes the norm to hire player bodyguards to protect someone who has invested enough time and effort into his or her profession to be a high-value target/asset.

You might disagree with the bodyguard part, but I think we all can agree that there should be a lot of incentive for people to level up professions and skills, as well as a lot of room to progress.

Just some of my thoughts

- Sikuba

I was the Charles Darwin of Wizard101.
I discovered the petnome code that allowed players to consistently breed the pet abilities they wanted for their pets.
Because of that, I was constantly escorted by premiere, max-level PvP group.
Some of their pets did more damage than I did when we grouped, but they didn't care.
I provided more value to the group than direct damage and direct kills - or direct healing or tanking.

I don't think Adventurers need special incentives to level up their professions.
People who wish to do so should able to.
People who wish to focus on Artisan classes should be able to hit max in the Artisan classes before people who divide their focus with combat.
And those Artisans should be gaining rep as the uber master artisans.

I think the point, though, is that stat progression and racial progression and gear progression in the Artisan professions should be comparable to the level progression of an Adventurer.
A 50th Level Blacksmith should have the Strength of a 50th Level Tank.
They should both be able to obtain the racial progression of a 50th Level character.
I don't necessarily think they should be able to wear each other's gear -- I hope the gear is designed so that it wouldn't matter much anyways since the gear supports the abilities of the profession or archetype: 50th Level Aggro Armor is not going to help a Blacksmith and a 50th Level Forge Apron is not going to help a Guardian.

The same death penalties should apply to both Artisans and Adventurers, of course.

I don't see any particular reason "artisans" should level the same as an "adventurer". Your core archtype (tank,rogue,cleric, etc.) Is your ability to go out and adventure, I mean I guess you can say a Smith is strong because of their work but swinging a hammer isn't the same as wearing plate armor and wielding a sword and shield.

Keeping the 2 separate increases player longevity and gives you something to do other than your main focus. 
You want that level 47 crafting material? Your going to either have to go fight for it or have the currency to aquire it from people who can. 

ArchivedUser

I didn't say that they should level the same.
I said stat progression for both should be the same and racial progression should be the same.
A Blacksmith and a Tank having the same amount of Strength at Level 50 does not mean that a 50th Level Blacksmith who is a 1st Level Tank will be able to Tank the same as a 50th Level Tank.
Just as a 50th Level Tank who is a 1st Level Blacksmith won't be able to Blacksmith the same a 50th Level Blacksmith.

A 50th Level Animal Breeder should be able to have the same Int as a 50th Level Mage. That doesn't mean the 50th Level Animal Breeder who is a 1st Level Mage will be able to cast Mage spells as effectively as a 50th Level Mage.

But, a 50th Level character should be a 50th Level character.
Professions would still be separate progression paths from archetypes.