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Gear exchange and P2W?

Alright so Im new here even though Im following this game since its kickstarter, the reason why Im posting here today is because Im wondering if the devs had an idea on how to handle the following problem many onlibe rpgs have, which is selling gear for real cash money.

At pax they said that most of the best gear of the game wouldn't be bind on soul, which worried me. Today on reddit of BDO, ive seen a post where a player paid someone else around 15000$ real cash money just to put a piece of gear on the market (direct item trading doesnt exist in BDO). 

So, what will happen with that in AoC? Did they think already about that and are planning to implement some measures? Because the game might not be directly P2W, but it might happen undirectly. And it truly would be a shame. Maybe you're planning on making the best gear easily accessible to avoid anyone to have to pay tremondeous amounts of money to get an amazing gear? 

Did i miss something that was talking about it?
What do you guys think ?

Comments

  • I've yet to see a single MMO that has been able to stop people making deals for items out of game in this manner.

    I'd like to see Intrepid do something to stop it, but I don't see it happening. Sadly.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    the gear is going to be cosmetic and offers no stats benefits.. so if someone wants to waste their cash buying a set of clothes from a cash seller outside the store with gives them zero benefits in game except looking different ,.,then they are too stupid to worry about anyways. 

    P2W means there is some tangible benefit you get from an item that gives you an advantage over others.... cosmetics arent pay to win.. 

  • Oh so there wont be ANY statistical change from gear AT ALL?! Well thats interesting, do you have the source from that informations?
  • the gear is going to be cosmetic and offers no stats benefits.. so if someone wants to waste their cash buying a set of clothes from a cash seller outside the store with gives them zero benefits in game except looking different ,.,then they are too stupid to worry about anyways. 

    P2W means there is some tangible benefit you get from an item that gives you an advantage over others.... cosmetics arent pay to win.. 

    This only applies to gear from the cash shop, the OP is talking about people trading gear obtained in game for real money.
  • please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.
  • RyzzeD said:
    please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.

    One can never look at a pay to win scenario from the sellers perspective to determine if it is pay to win.

    Look at the same scenario from the perspective of the buyer. They paid real money in order to secure the sale of an in game item. Whether they needed to also use in game currency is not the point as much as the fact that they had to also use real currency to secure the in game item.

    This is pay to win.

    It is not developer-to-player pay to win, but rather player-to-player pay to win.

    I believe Intrepid have said they will monitor the economy for suspicious transactions, though I don't have a quote for that. If they do, it will likely pick up some transactions long these lines.
  • RyzzeD said:
    please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.
    Well in that particular case, the same player did also pay 15000$ in cosmetics items that he sold on the market to get the money to pay for the item.. So yeah 30k for an item...

    If direct trading is allowed in AoC he wont even need in game money to get the items he wants. But it likely will be since players will be able to open their own shops and sell jtems on a local market (and global depending of servers and nodes)
  • Putting restrictions on trading ruins mmos for me. I understand the one time drops being soulbound, but thats it. I want freedom, BDO's solution ruined that game for me hard.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Noaani said:
    the gear is going to be cosmetic and offers no stats benefits.. so if someone wants to waste their cash buying a set of clothes from a cash seller outside the store with gives them zero benefits in game except looking different ,.,then they are too stupid to worry about anyways. 

    P2W means there is some tangible benefit you get from an item that gives you an advantage over others.... cosmetics arent pay to win.. 

    This only applies to gear from the cash shop, the OP is talking about people trading gear obtained in game for real money.
    easiest solution is to make purchased cash shop gear bound to the account and then it cant be sold or traded. 

  • easiest solution is to make purchased cash shop gear bound to the account and then it cant be sold or traded. 

    But we are not talking about cash shop items.
  • You don't need to worry there is no p2w in any form if there was the community would come down like a ton of bricks and this game would crash and burn 
  • Malgus said:
    You don't need to worry there is no p2w in any form if there was the community would come down like a ton of bricks and this game would crash and burn 
    Intrepid will not be involved in any pay-to-win items, this is known.

    However, one for of pay-to-win is player-to-player, and is something Intrepid do not have direct control over. That is what this thread is asking about.
  • I dont think you can stop people from selling stuff to each other for real world money. becouse you need to soulbound every stuff which is ridiculous. That can ruin most of the aspects of the game including crafting (why would i want craft high tier stuff if im not gona able to sell it ?) In a game with priority of player interactions thats just not gona happen. not to mention even you did soulbound every stuff i am pretty sure  people will sell account just for some valuable item is in possesion of that account.
  • Kravei said:
    I dont think you can stop people from selling stuff to each other for real world money. becouse you need to soulbound every stuff which is ridiculous. That can ruin most of the aspects of the game including crafting (why would i want craft high tier stuff if im not gona able to sell it ?) In a game with priority of player interactions thats just not gona happen. not to mention even you did soulbound every stuff i am pretty sure  people will sell account just for some valuable item is in possesion of that account.

    I totally agree with you, unfortunatly , that means that like it or not, there is going to be P2W in AoC because de that. It just wont be the dev or publisher's fault.

    Unless the devs come up with a genius system that makes this kind of trades impossible while still allowing the players to trade freely.

    They might put some conditions that will give them lists of suspicious transactions but i doubt it will be enough 
  • If someone wants to buy gear for 15k out of game then good for the seller for finding a sucker and a big 'WTF' for the dude spending 15k on bits.

  • Rollin said:
    If someone wants to buy gear for 15k out of game then good for the seller for finding a sucker and a big 'WTF' for the dude spending 15k on bits.

    For some people 15k isnt "much" and is only consider a good day of work, of course its the 1% Im talking about but still, in an mmo, theres lot of people , and à good bunch of 1%
  • Yea and a lot of the people who make enough money for outrageous purchases like that dont have time to play as much, so if they can buy it they usually will. That's life though.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Anarcx said:
    RyzzeD said:
    please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.
    Well in that particular case, the same player did also pay 15000$ in cosmetics items that he sold on the market to get the money to pay for the item.. So yeah 30k for an item...

    If direct trading is allowed in AoC he wont even need in game money to get the items he wants. But it likely will be since players will be able to open their own shops and sell jtems on a local market (and global depending of servers and nodes)
    well as one who played bdo (europe server [korea server has no this restriction]) you can only sell 5 cosmetics item per month in the auction house so... it would take like 24 months to sell so many cosmetic items to get around 4.5b silver in bdo for that pen/tet dandelion.
    if you talk about korea version then don't cuz its pay2win anyway like the turkish version :P

    and btw lets add this

  • RyzzeD said:
    Anarcx said:
    RyzzeD said:
    please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.
    Well in that particular case, the same player did also pay 15000$ in cosmetics items that he sold on the market to get the money to pay for the item.. So yeah 30k for an item...

    If direct trading is allowed in AoC he wont even need in game money to get the items he wants. But it likely will be since players will be able to open their own shops and sell jtems on a local market (and global depending of servers and nodes)
    well as one who played bdo (europe server [korea server has no this restriction]) you can only sell 5 cosmetics item per month in the auction house so... it would take like 24 months to sell so many cosmetic items to get around 4.5b silver in bdo for that pen/tet dandelion.
    if you talk about korea version then don't cuz its pay2win anyway like the turkish version :P

    and btw lets add this

    HAhaha that meme x)
    It was on Taiwan servers. Of course, we're NA/EU and not asians which are oriented P2W in their games. But the point of this post remains that i'm simply wondering if IS have considered the fact, (since Steven repeat all the time that AoC will not be a game P2W), that player would sell/buy gear for real money on shady or not so shady websites. And if they did, if they're planning some game mechanics to counter that kind of practice or they'll simply give up on fighting it?
  • Anarcx said:
    RyzzeD said:
    Anarcx said:
    RyzzeD said:
    please answer me this.
    if i get some gear and sell it on the market cuz some1 paid me to put it on the market how is it pay2win? he still need to use his in-game balance to buy it...
    so not so pay2win... if there is a direct trade for those items between two players then yes. but through the market place where everyone can buy it (if the have enough in-game balance for it) does not make it pay2win even if i got paid to post it in the marketplace.
    Well in that particular case, the same player did also pay 15000$ in cosmetics items that he sold on the market to get the money to pay for the item.. So yeah 30k for an item...

    If direct trading is allowed in AoC he wont even need in game money to get the items he wants. But it likely will be since players will be able to open their own shops and sell jtems on a local market (and global depending of servers and nodes)
    well as one who played bdo (europe server [korea server has no this restriction]) you can only sell 5 cosmetics item per month in the auction house so... it would take like 24 months to sell so many cosmetic items to get around 4.5b silver in bdo for that pen/tet dandelion.
    if you talk about korea version then don't cuz its pay2win anyway like the turkish version :P

    and btw lets add this

    HAhaha that meme x)
    It was on Taiwan servers. Of course, we're NA/EU and not asians which are oriented P2W in their games. But the point of this post remains that i'm simply wondering if IS have considered the fact, (since Steven repeat all the time that AoC will not be a game P2W), that player would sell/buy gear for real money on shady or not so shady websites. And if they did, if they're planning some game mechanics to counter that kind of practice or they'll simply give up on fighting it?
    well no one can fight p2w. but you can make it minimal.
    for example in bdo eu/na there is almost no p2w (except for cosmetic in auction house)
    but no one is selling gear for real money. that is the difference between asia/korea/taiwan and eu/na.
    also maybe the endgame gear that is no soulbound will be bound on equip and then you'll need to think about selling it or use it.
    but for now all we can do is wonder what it will be like in the end xD
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    As long as a game has Player 2 Player trading and Items that aren't soulbound or accountbound, you are going to have issues with people RMT'ing them.

    This is just a balancing issue, since you want people to be able to trade weapons and armors in-game for gold or other equipment. Soulbound/Accountbound items on Equip is pretty bad on a games economic scale, since it locks good gear away from the market.

    For the P2W issue, this cannot be helped unfortunately.. As long as a game has P2P Trading, there will be P2W.  People even did it in BDO with Potions to get cash even tough that game had the most strict Trading of any MMO. The only thing we can control is how much P2W features the Devs will add, which in Ashes will be 0%.

    So we'll have to live with a bit of RMT, something that any MMO has had to do.
  • the only way I can see them controlling this is by banning anyone found doing it. There is not much they can do about it if for example I decide to give my neighbor (whom also happens to play AoC with me) money, or I buy him dinner or something like that in exchange for something in game.

    the only way would be preventing any kind of trading or in game economy between players which is not going to happen.
  • Santy182 said:
    the only way I can see them controlling this is by banning anyone found doing it. There is not much they can do about it if for example I decide to give my neighbor (whom also happens to play AoC with me) money, or I buy him dinner or something like that in exchange for something in game.

    the only way would be preventing any kind of trading or in game economy between players which is not going to happen.

    The only way to stop people from RMT'ing, is to disable in-game trading completely, both Player to Player and Auction house. Which will never happen.

    BDO tried their best, disabling P2P trading and having Dev Controlled Pricing in the Marketplace. But how much does a game suffer when stuff like that are implemented.
  • This problem has many facets but we're talking about a group of DEVS that have been around the block more than twice.  I have no inside knowledge and no foresight abilities personally so i am merely speculating when i say we'll probably see another hybrid of the old EQ/EQ2/WOW trading where some items are trade-able (and therefore sellable) and other items are soul-bound.

    Personally i hope they soul-bind *ALL* raid and quest loot with the same type of mechanic we've seen before...i.e. a person being awarded an item can trade that item to someone else in the raid or another person in their group also on that same quest for up to xx hours until it locks onto the person who looted it.

    There's NOTHING quite as gut-wrenching as working with a group of 20-40 people for weeks on a Boss only to finally kill it and take its stuff...and in 10 days you see half a dozen twerps running around with the same gear knowing full well they have neither the strength nor the patience to earn the piece themselves...instead out came the credit card.  

    I'm basing this on the pedigree of our Developers.  They've all worked on MMO's where earning your rewards is paramount...and the reward is worthy of the risks.

    In the end though if the money behind the development says "We make 15.75% more revenue by allowing the sale of high-end items," i find it difficult to believe in today's saturated market that they would turn a blind eye to that kind of revenue.  I know its sad. I don't agree with $$$ being the driving force behind game-mechanic decisions but ultimately without the money there is no funny so i'm hoping they nail it providing a nice revenue stream to the financiers without having to compromise principles.

    -LK

  • Elkay said:
    This problem has many facets but we're talking about a group of DEVS that have been around the block more than twice.  I have no inside knowledge and no foresight abilities personally so i am merely speculating when i say we'll probably see another hybrid of the old EQ/EQ2/WOW trading where some items are trade-able (and therefore sellable) and other items are soul-bound.

    Personally i hope they soul-bind *ALL* raid and quest loot with the same type of mechanic we've seen before...i.e. a person being awarded an item can trade that item to someone else in the raid or another person in their group also on that same quest for up to xx hours until it locks onto the person who looted it.

    There's NOTHING quite as gut-wrenching as working with a group of 20-40 people for weeks on a Boss only to finally kill it and take its stuff...and in 10 days you see half a dozen twerps running around with the same gear knowing full well they have neither the strength nor the patience to earn the piece themselves...instead out came the credit card.  

    I'm basing this on the pedigree of our Developers.  They've all worked on MMO's where earning your rewards is paramount...and the reward is worthy of the risks.

    In the end though if the money behind the development says "We make 15.75% more revenue by allowing the sale of high-end items," i find it difficult to believe in today's saturated market that they would turn a blind eye to that kind of revenue.  I know its sad. I don't agree with $$$ being the driving force behind game-mechanic decisions but ultimately without the money there is no funny so i'm hoping they nail it providing a nice revenue stream to the financiers without having to compromise principles.

    -LK

    Its not a solution people will just sell spots in raids for items. example : bns
    Thing is more you you want to control trading interactions more you need  to put restrictions which is just not good in MMO. 
    Trading between players is just gona will happen one way or another. as long as dev's dont develop their game just for bashing cash shop items to players its not deal breaker.
  • Zinnie said:

    The only way to stop people from RMT'ing, is to disable in-game trading completely, both Player to Player and Auction house. Which will never happen.

    I totally agree that the only way to stop it is to prevent people from trading in game - which we wouldn't want to see.

    However, just because an action won't outright put a stop to an undesired behavior, it doesn't mean that action isn't worth taking still.

    Intrepid need to identify people that are selling items, and need to ban their accounts. More than that, Intrepid need to be seen to be doing all of that.

    It won't stop RMT by any means, but that isn't an excuse to sit idly by while it happens.
  • This isnt really a Pay2Win problem.
    What you have described is paying for prioritised treatment.
    You arent gaining any advantage other than jumping the queue for items that were in the queue anyway.
    Even then, just because you put something on the market at the time someone told you too, doesnt mean someone else wont snap it up before the intended target got it anyway.

    So for me, this doesnt effect gameplay in anyway.
    I would be amused if someone payed $10000 for someone to put something on sale at a specific time so they could buy it and someone else got it just before they did
    Those tears would be sooooooooo salty
    :tongue:

  • This isnt really a Pay2Win problem.
    What you have described is paying for prioritised treatment.
    You arent gaining any advantage other than jumping the queue for items that were in the queue anyway.
    Even then, just because you put something on the market at the time someone told you too, doesnt mean someone else wont snap it up before the intended target got it anyway.

    So for me, this doesnt effect gameplay in anyway.
    I would be amused if someone payed $10000 for someone to put something on sale at a specific time so they could buy it and someone else got it just before they did
    Those tears would be sooooooooo salty
    :tongue:

    While debatably true, the only reason it was done this way in BDO was because there was no character to character trading, something I would assume would be in AoC.

    If that same deal were to happen in AoC the buyer would give the seller the money, then the seller would simply transfer the item to the buyer via trade.
  • Seems like if someone pays any amount of RL money to convince someone to add something to the market, and then they purchase it for in game currency, there isn't a problem.

    1) A guild mate could ask someone to do it for free, being a guild mate they do it, this whole thing just happened for free.

    2) In game currency still has to be used, so the player buying the item still has to farm gold. I think that IS has confirmed you can't sell/trade cash shop items (hence no P2W) @Uknownusererror would be a better/quicker source of that info.

    3) If the player tries to sell the item for way below the market value MANY players will want it. When they can't buy it because seller is refusing they will be reported because peeps will be mad and someone will be suspicious.

    I understand this can never be prevented, but it seems like this is a stretch for thinking Ashes will go the route of P2W.

    They might have some nefarious out of game black market community that adds a P2W function, but as others have said, not all things can be prevented. Gold farming will still need to be a thing.
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