Arena and Organized PvP Rewards?

Hey all, I was just wondering whether the developers are planning to implement a substantial rewards system for winning Arenas and the likes.

In many games that I've played in the past, while winning an Arena, Battleground, or other PvP event would give currency towards PvP items, they offered little to no in-game currency, leaving some of the more committed PvPers needing in terms of funds.

As far as I'm aware, the current gear situation doesn't include PvP-specific gear, so I'm wondering if there will be other rewards to put some incentive into developer-organized PvP. Being poor as a result of enjoying PvP is a hefty price.

Obviously, one shouldn't be able to live entirely off of Arenas, but a little kickback for the effort would be much appreciated. :3

Comments

  • They haven't really talked about it. We know there are arenas with a ladder system and there will be rewards for the ladder system but have no specifics to my knowledge.

    http://www.aocwiki.net/PvP#cite_note-2

    I disagree that gear, resources, or gold should be rewards for just participating in arenas. Just like how crafters have to rely on gathers for resources, pvpers are going to have to rely on pve'ers and crafters for gear. This hopefully will give you a reason to not randomly attack people from your node and try to work with them. Maybe go out and help defend them from raiders so you can get gear off them later.

    I also believe that when everything is done and balanced, pvpers should do fine by raiding neighboring nodes' caravans and farmers. They are putting most things in the open world for a reason.
  • They haven't really talked about it. We know there are arenas with a ladder system and there will be rewards for the ladder system but have no specifics to my knowledge.

    http://www.aocwiki.net/PvP#cite_note-2

    I disagree that gear, resources, or gold should be rewards for just participating in arenas. Just like how crafters have to rely on gathers for resources, pvpers are going to have to rely on pve'ers and crafters for gear. This hopefully will give you a reason to not randomly attack people from your node and try to work with them. Maybe go out and help defend them from raiders so you can get gear off them later.

    I also believe that when everything is done and balanced, pvpers should do fine by raiding neighboring nodes' caravans and farmers. They are putting most things in the open world for a reason.
    My issue is just that there is a sizable community of people who enjoy grinding out Arenas and other PvP modes. This can be very time-consuming, especially if you're trying to climb a ranking system that we know will be present. If the time spent in these modes isn't rewarded, PvPers will be forced to play much more than their PvE counterparts in order to remain relevant equipment/trade-wise.

    Maybe rewards should be based on rank - If you win a high level PvP contest, you earn more gold than someone who won a lower ranked match. This would incentivize climbing the ladder, and reduce the likeliness that PvP will become Player vs. Poverty.

    - Sikuba
  • I completely agree with Sikuba. I will spend a lot of time doing arenas/bgs so I want to be rewarded. I agree that raids and some world bosses should give you higher reward BUT dont make that big mistake other games did...if you are a pvper you are poor.

    Earning some gold or badges to trade with some merchant and then selling those objects on AH could be a solution to that.
  • I also might like to see some PvP-exclusive cosmetics to celebrate certain achievements on the ladder. It would be cool to be able to advertise a high rank on either your character or property.  :)
  • For official tournaments there should be rewards in place, I mean pvp is one thing but we should still get rewards for the time we are putting into it :3
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Some good points that need addressing and never really have been:

    1. There is only so much time. Spending it in one area reduces it in all others. Arenas and such remove all time expenditure from the community side of the game, because they are in effect, in their own little bubble of existence, isolated from the rest of the game community. Thats just stating a fact rather than a criticism as such. There are some MMOs that refused arenas on that ground alone.

    2. The crafters will rely on PvE combat to provide gear components in a progressive manner, that they need to provide gear the combatants in turn need. This mutual dependence/need drives trade. There is no real equivalent in the PvP context. So PvP players pretty much remain poor unless they spend all their time hijacking resources from the caravan system to sell on the markets. Is ill gotten gains the only way PvP should be funded ?

    3. BUT....this game will probably heavily rely on a mercenary aspect as a source of income. How much of a dependency system results form the game will determine how viable being a mercenary is. Would encouraging protection rackets be a rewarding experience or an unrewarding one for the community as a whole ?

    So for me whats required is gear components that can be gained through PvP aspects, that also create a mutual dependency and need to trade (this could be arena specific). I would also suggest a node tax payment system for NPC and Player protection that is performance related. Quantifying that performance would be the hard part, if you didnt want to encourage griefing and keep the war in the warzones.

    I would like to see a progression system based off a synergy recipe system. Where combat progress is based off experience of combat in multiple unique ways. Perhaps rewards for this like rewards for exploring or crafting would be a good road to go down.
  • So for me whats required is gear components that can be gained through PvP aspects, that also create a mutual dependency and need to trade (this could be arena specific).

    @Rune_Relic

    This would mean forcing people to PvP, which is a bad thing (even worse if you force them to do arenas). The other way around also holds - forcing people to do raids/dungeons to get gear if they don't really like those aspects of a game.

    Mercenaries could work, but only with a proper corruption system in place. That's because otherwise you'll see some of them (also guilds) following people around and killing them every time, until they start paying up. That's not gonna be fun, even for some of those doing it (but it's better to be in the mafia rather than against the mafia, right?).

    I could see everything working with 2 different "games" - PvP+Arenas and PvE, allowing players to choose how they want to obtain their gear, even level up their professions. Also, it's not hard to imagine something cool, PvP related, that allows you to get better at crafting and such.

    There can be an NPC that allows you to transition, at any time, between PVP and PVE gear; for example: 1% more threat generated from tank gear can be changed quickly and for free into 1% more PVP power when using a shield+1hand. And so on... It's not something hard to do either, because it basically implies gear duality regarding some of the stats and each character being "flagged" in code. It allows for flexibility too, because you can be "flagged" as a PVPer but do PVE content to level up, or vice-versa (even though you'd be less effective at it, the difference shouldn't matter that much, except maybe for the latter case, e.g. being able to take one more hit from a player versus dying).

    Yet, two issues will remain:
    - how to bring together the PvPers and PvEers. This is what this game attempts, according to Steven. Caravans, sieges, etc.. could be one solution. Also regular fun events, both PVE and PVP, that could sound interesting to people, enough that they "change" into the other gear archetype.

    - the ladder system of arenas. This is the reason why I only played arenas for fun in WoW and for very little time. Ladders are really stupid in my opinion, but are the easiest to implement. That's why I hate most MOBAs too - because your rating is more or less like a ladder, yet your skill at the game is very rarely dependent on how many games you win or lose (especially when you have 4 others that you cannot control, thus forcing you into thousands of games just to get close to a true value). This is artificial and doesn't reflect skill. Nevertheless, I haven't found any game that actually wanted to create a proper system to "compute a player's actual skill level without taking into consideration wins and losses". Still dreaming for one though... too bad I can't program a game by myself :)

    All in all, some fun alternatives are possible and i'm always an advocate for OPTIONS. Never forcing people into something, but giving them REAL OPTIONS (which means also allowing them to "change" into other "designs" if they feel like it). Allowing me to do arenas yet getting my gear from dungeons is NOT a real option - you'll still have to do both if you want the gear and play what you like (i.e. use that gear for something that you wanted).

    Hopefully I'm making enough sense :tired_face:
  • @Crusader2010
    There is no PvP and PvE gear.
    There is just PvX gear.
    Whether you get the components via PvP or PvE should be neither here nor there and combat drops should be specific to context.
    Would be strange to get a dragons tooth from anything other than slaughtering a dragon.
    So I dont see how you can use such a thing in a PvP context.
    What I am saying is PvP needs something similar.

  • @Rune_Relic
    Well, getting a dragon's tooth could come from killing another player in an arena while both of you are riding a dragon, or each having some dragon pets that do something specific to that arena's design/etc. There are probably much better ideas that artists/designers can come up with.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying. My idea was somehow complementary, that gear could be easily changed to favor either PVP or PVE environments, based on player choice and a number of changeable "secondary stats" that are valid only(mostly) in either PVE or PVP. The reasoning is that some players might want to be focused on one of the two. If there's only one type of gear, it's most likely going to be PVE-designed, which may not feel fun for the PVPers.

    Basically we agree with each other I think :) The same things that drop in PVE should be available somehow by PVP-related actions. I was just proposing a gear type changeable split to make things more interesting or focused on the actual environment (PVE vs PVP).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Rune_Relic
    Well, getting a dragon's tooth could come from killing another player in an arena while both of you are riding a dragon, or each having some dragon pets that do something specific to that arena's design/etc. There are probably much better ideas that artists/designers can come up with.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying. My idea was somehow complementary, that gear could be easily changed to favor either PVP or PVE environments, based on player choice and a number of changeable "secondary stats" that are valid only(mostly) in either PVE or PVP. The reasoning is that some players might want to be focused on one of the two. If there's only one type of gear, it's most likely going to be PVE-designed, which may not feel fun for the PVPers.

    Basically we agree with each other I think :) The same things that drop in PVE should be available somehow by PVP-related actions. I was just proposing a gear type changeable split to make things more interesting or focused on the actual environment (PVE vs PVP).
    I dont fundamentally disagree with you no..(and I did actually envision theft of the dragons tooth and such)
    Its just semantics and nit picking at the end of the day.
    If environmental context is important then PvE and PvP environments should really have different contexts.
    But being openworld you are actually thrown into a mish mash of both.
    Thats the only real reason I questioned it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Rune_Relic the problem is that by PVP, by design, you cannot obtain crafting components unless you steal them from other players... somehow.

    But then it becomes easier to just farm them by gathering or killing mobs.

    That makes me actually question any system that allows of obtaining anything by PVP/Arenas (except gear), since it's much easier to just go in the world and do it.

    I don't see a way of making something work for PvP because I lack the creativity to imagine something PVP-related that is as easy as going to a flower and picking it up... both as a time investment and how easy it is to finish.

    Even if some cool arenas were designed or we could steal stuff from other players, it's still going to be more difficult to do and people are always leaning towards what is simple and quick.
  • @Rune_Relic
    Well, getting a dragon's tooth could come from killing another player in an arena while both of you are riding a dragon, or each having some dragon pets that do something specific to that arena's design/etc. There are probably much better ideas that artists/designers can come up with.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying. My idea was somehow complementary, that gear could be easily changed to favor either PVP or PVE environments, based on player choice and a number of changeable "secondary stats" that are valid only(mostly) in either PVE or PVP. The reasoning is that some players might want to be focused on one of the two. If there's only one type of gear, it's most likely going to be PVE-designed, which may not feel fun for the PVPers.

    Basically we agree with each other I think :) The same things that drop in PVE should be available somehow by PVP-related actions. I was just proposing a gear type changeable split to make things more interesting or focused on the actual environment (PVE vs PVP).
    You can't basically agree with someone and say the polar opposite lol. There is NO pvp gear. There is NO pve gear. There is one set of armor. PvX 

    If your going to focus on one or the other inevitably your going to miss out on something. I'm with rune on this one if I defeat a player in arena I don't want to see a fatty bear liver drop. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    You can't basically agree with someone and say the polar opposite lol. There is NO pvp gear. There is NO pve gear. There is one set of armor. PvX


    These are two separable things:

    - PvE and PvP gear (or PvX gear);

    - getting whatever you need for e.g. crafting from both PvE and PvP, in a way that makes sense.

    No, a player dropping a bear liver would be bad, indeed. That's not what I was suggesting. It's either stealing resources from players, PVP arenas/battlegrounds/whatever designed with some neutral(or not) mobs that drop that loot, or something else that smarter people than me might think about. I can't see another way of incorporating the PVE action of gathering/farming into a PVP environment.

    Quests, experience, player levels and gear are easy to do and have been done already by other MMOs too.


  • @Crusader2010
    Yes I dont recall a game to date that has offered components through PvP.
    And you are right you normally resort to theft to gain such stuff.
    Doesnt means such systems cant exist....which was my point.

    For instance you could have a trash window in the inventory, you could also have a PvP wager window of all goods you are happy to wager in PvP combat.
    Such system could give a choice of equivalent value items for players to compete over.
    Barter by Combat if you like.
    It would enable you to exchange unsuitable build components for suitable build components as you wouldnt offer stuff that you valued/needed for your specific build.
    If you make a choice to put a high value item on the line....you know you will receive something equally good but your build specific if you win the fight.
    Such a system could also allow for a horde of goods through team play.

    This also encourages dueling for PvP players trying to get components for their build.
    I know this isnt a perfect answer but it is a start.
    So a Crafter could say to a PvE player ...kill this monster and get me this piece or they could say to a PvP player.... I need this component if you can find it somehow. It doesnt matter how each comes by the item (direct/indirect). What matters is they have or can obtain the item to sell to the crafter.

  • The developers have specifically said that - unlike other, lesser games - there will be no PvP gear and PvE gear.

    There will just be gear.

    In most games with gear awarded via PvP, the gear in question could be top quality for PvP as it used different stats to PvE gear. While I am not saying it couldn't be done in Ashes, I could see it being difficult.

    It is also worth noting that in response to a question about whether a player could get by in the game with only PvP, Stevens response was "Players should stay away from purely focusing on one aspect."

    So basically, don't be a pure PvP'er. Expect to have to do other things to get by.
  • It is also worth noting that in response to a question about whether a player could get by in the game with only PvP, Stevens response was "Players should stay away from purely focusing on one aspect."

    So basically, don't be a pure PvP'er. Expect to have to do other things to get by.

    If this gets implemented then it pretty much settles the argument. Thanks for the info :)

    Now, what I'm curious about is whether the reverse holds true. Will PVE players have to do some sort of PVP to get by? Or maybe the risk of getting ganked while gathering is that PVP aspect?

    If not, then it's biased a bit... (and I'm a player that hates to PVP).


  • Now, what I'm curious about is whether the reverse holds true. Will PVE players have to do some sort of PVP to get by? 

    Yes.
  • With this question, I'm not necessarily trying to ask whether players should be able to get by purely through PvP. I would suggest a limit to how much money could be earned as a result of Arenas and the likes (Does not include Caravans - they are part of World PvP). But at the same time, rewarding players with nothing other than a rank puts a lot of pressure on players to do things other than PvP, where there should be incentive to do both.

    Perhaps there could be a good amount of money to be earned for the first PvP win, with reduced quantities as players continue to play. Losses would give a very small, constant amount. This system would reset daily, giving all players incentive to participate in the instanced PvP to some extent. This would further reducing average wait times as well.

    Does anyone see any flaws in this suggestion? I actually think that it could be viable, and satisfies several of the goals that the devs have for player participation.

    Thoughts appreciated  :3

    - Sikuba
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Sikuba

    TL;DR: I'd also go for constant rewards, but with increasing them the longer you played instead of lowering, and with certain thresholds and daily resets that prevent the mentality of "daily quests" from other MMOs.

    I don't think it's fine to reduce the amount of gold/whatever that you get if you continue doing PVP. Most people are going to play just for "the first win of the day" then go do something else. I don't see this as a proper goal because some might like doing arenas more than going into a dungeon and they should be able to get by with this. Forcing a 50/50 split is bad in my opinion, but allowing flexibility - between %[80/20] and %[20/80] or similar - could be good (here it mostly depends on what Steven wants to accomplish, or what he is able to).

    Instead, like you said, constant rewards could be a thing, but until a certain threshold. After that, you'll have the chance to get more gold/whatever, if you dedicate more time/skill/etc to what you do.

    I really dislike crude ladder systems, so I'll keep it general, as an example: - you gain 40 gold for every arena win, for the first 15 wins in a day; every win after that will give you a chance of adding +10, +20,.... to the reward according to how skilled you were in the fight (again, I don't like this system, but think of it like a bracket, for the sake of the example - when you go up in a better one, the reward increases).

    Same system could apply to loses, but with (much) lower rewards. Performing really well even if you lost should provide a good amount of gold/whatever, because you deserve it.

    "Skill" shouldn't be determined by the amount of wins/losses, but how effective you were in the fights (i.e. how effective the use of your abilities was). If proper systems are in place to detect win-trading or attempts at tricking the "skill determining algorithm", this would be really fun in my opinion and not impossible to do at all (I do have a really detailed idea on this, but that's for another time, if anyone will care). A hidden rating could simply be the average of these "skill amounts", per fight, and be used in the matchmaking.

    Next, the only thing I see wrong with the daily resets is that it "forces" people to do those activities (mentally). They become like daily quests. I know, this is a completely biased opinion, but I truly HATE the idea of daily quests. To me they are one of the forms of useless grinding and time sinks on which to spend your subscription money.

    Continuing from above, the daily reset should be for the first 15 wins, not for one. You still get the same rewards as before, but if you want to generate income from PVP, you can keep doing it because every win after 15 will provide more gold according to how good you were in that fight. Getting 15 wins is going to be some kind of time investment, probably comparable to doing a dungeon run or whatever. This means that only people that like to do it will.

    Lastly, I think the balancing is the one that will make or break these ideas, if any ever happen. For example: to what should the amount of money got from PVP be comparable to from PVE? E.g. a max level mob drops an average of 10 gold; how much should an arena win provide? If you, at max level, kill the mob in 3 shots = 3 seconds, on average, and finish an arena battle in 2 minutes, should the amount of gold be their ratio = 120/3 = 40 gold?

    If these amounts are not equivalent (probably depending on the time investment overall), then people might not do them enough and skew the balance beyond the accepted split between PVE and PVP.
  • @Crusader2010

    The problem with increasing rewards the more you play is that it encourages you to make a massive time commitment in order to actually start making better money, which is what the devs don't want. You shouldn't be able to, or need to spend all your time PvPing in order for the time commitment to be worthwhile.

    Another way the system could work is that you have opportunity to gain money from wins, depending on how high ranked you are. But this only applies for the first X amount of wins every day. Outside of that, you've made what money you can and are either trying to climb some more or playing for fun.

    The devs are trying to encourage player participation in many different parts of the game, which is a hard thing to do. Hopefully, they find a way to keep PvPers' time valuable in the process.

    - Sikuba
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Sikuba I see what you mean now. So basically stop getting money from wins after a certain number. But this somehow forces a ladder system that you want to climb if that's what you want and don't care about extra rewards.. Any ideas on what to reward a player for subsequent wins such that it's worthwhile to PVP but not as efficient as doing something else (and to prevent the ladder system :tongue: )?

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Crusader2010
    I can't really think of a good solution to that, if I'm totally honest. Hopefully they would balance it so that the amount of wins that you get money from is significant enough to allow you to progress up the ladder while still giving your time the value it deserves.

    They could substantially reduce the reward instead of eliminating it altogether, but that's a marginal improvement. Still, that's about all I can think of right now.

    As an Arena/Battleground PvPer, I really hope they make it work.

    - Sikuba
  • They haven't really talked about it. We know there are arenas with a ladder system and there will be rewards for the ladder system but have no specifics to my knowledge.

    http://www.aocwiki.net/PvP#cite_note-2

    I disagree that gear, resources, or gold should be rewards for just participating in arenas. Just like how crafters have to rely on gathers for resources, pvpers are going to have to rely on pve'ers and crafters for gear. This hopefully will give you a reason to not randomly attack people from your node and try to work with them. Maybe go out and help defend them from raiders so you can get gear off them later.

    I also believe that when everything is done and balanced, pvpers should do fine by raiding neighboring nodes' caravans and farmers. They are putting most things in the open world for a reason.
    I thought that you won't be able to attack anyone from your node no matter what.  Kind of like how guilds work.  You would have to drop citizenship to do so.

    As for PvP gear, all gear being PvX I'm ok with, but it would be nice to be able to gear up through pvp.  I like having the option of gearing up through all 3, crafting/pve/pvp.
  • @Nibiru79

    I believe that the current PvP way to gain money is through Caravans and Sieges. As important as these in-world events are, many PvPers will be spending a lot of time trying to advance their ladder rank and prove their worth on a measurable stage. This may not directly relate to the world around them as much as a siege does, but it's an integral part of the MMO experience for a lot of competitive PvP players. 

    Not having some form of reward for the effort spent makes it that much harder for PvPers to do what they love. I understand that you shouldn't be able to make much progress or money with PvP alone, but some is needed to not put Arena PvPers at a disadvantage gear-wise with their PvE counterparts. The last thing you want is to cripple the population that will be on the front lines of Sieges.

    - Sikuba
  • I really don't see Intrepid pushing players in to an arena type of game play.

    Arenas may exist, and there may be rewards, but I think we will all find that if - 6 months after release - a player complains that they can't'make a living' off of the arenas, Intrepids answer will simply be that other forms of PvP are designed for material progression, the arena is designed for fun.

    In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if the only thing an arena offers is bragging rights via a ranking system.
  • Most likely every player needs to take part to PvE content somehow. Even ultimate PvP players needs to progress combat skills through PvE and at the same time get some money. Even PvP centric games uses this system.

    I am not against rewards and progression from areenas or battlegrounds, but those should be just side income with mostly cosmetics prizes. I guess you could get arena coins, which could be used like discount coupon to buy gear from crafters f.e.. Crafter would of course get full payment.

    Some rewards could also be player crafted. Arena vendor could set buy orders so players can sell some stuff to fill reward pool. 
  • Ferryman said:
    Most likely every player needs to take part to PvE content somehow. Even ultimate PvP players needs to progress combat skills through PvE and at the same time get some money. Even PvP centric games uses this system.

    I am not against rewards and progression from areenas or battlegrounds, but those should be just side income with mostly cosmetics prizes. I guess you could get arena coins, which could be used like discount coupon to buy gear from crafters f.e.. Crafter would of course get full payment.

    Some rewards could also be player crafted. Arena vendor could set buy orders so players can sell some stuff to fill reward pool. 
    Exactly. I'm not asking for the ability to make bank solely through Arena PvP, just to put enough incentive where I don't feel like I should be doing something else - at least for the first few matches.
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