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Boss mechanics

Boss mechanics are really something i hope IS will be succesfull with. And i mean succesfull from class and group composition point of view. Too many times in mmos bossess are more or less about dps check, even there would be some kind if tricky mechanic behind the fight. At the end its still just about dps.

First step is to get balance between tanking, healing, damaging and supporting. Making it really work like quad system instead of holy trinity. That is the starting point, but still not enough. Now there should be different kind of boss mechanics, which are not all about dps. Making some fights more about supporting and surviving would be really nice to have. Making buffing and shielding allies or making CCs and debuffs on boss more important than dps are the real options. 

On top of that if hybrid class combinations are equally valueable in groups than pure dps, pure healer and pure tank, then i guess IS has truely nailed it.   

Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    I think all fights should be like Patchwerk from WoW.

    ...or Hogger...







    Kappa >:)
  • Actually some mechanics in WoW are pretty nice, but still in almost all cases its still about dps rush or the boss rage timer will end the fight. And who cares if group needs to CC the boss for longer time and slowly bring it to death. That will also need skill, and theres no rage timers needed at all.

    Also if bosses can be beaten with different strategies, that would be nice too. It would give different group compositions a chance to do it own way.

    I hope there will be decent amount of challenge or at least there will be different level bosses so theres something to everybody. I just hope its not like in Albion Online where you need only think your build from PvP point of view, because PvE content is just so faceroll and you dont have to think your gear or build PvE wise at all.
  • There is a mechanic in Wildstar where if you interrupt an enemy that is performing a telegraphed attack they are knocked down and take more damage from attacks.  Bosses and elite mobs have "interrupt armor" which makes them immune to a certain amount of CC, but once that armor is broken the next hard CC (stun) to hit them would actually stun the boss and put them in the weaken state like other creatures. It would be cool if Intrepid did something similar. Or at least make CC have a purpose in a boss fights because nowadays it is practically useless.
  • Zastro said:
    There is a mechanic in Wildstar where if you interrupt an enemy that is performing a telegraphed attack they are knocked down and take more damage from attacks.  Bosses and elite mobs have "interrupt armor" which makes them immune to a certain amount of CC, but once that armor is broken the next hard CC (stun) to hit them would actually stun the boss and put them in the weaken state like other creatures. It would be cool if Intrepid did something similar. Or at least make CC have a purpose in a boss fights because nowadays it is practically useless.
    Excatly. Slowing down and rooting bosses should be one option and why not even making stuns possible. If the CCs are too powerful then bosses may have some kind of resistances which shortens specific durations. That total immunity is just so dull.
  • Patchwerk would be an ok encounter to base trash mobs on, or as one mechanic out of three for a boss mob - but was overly simplistic as an encounter by itself. Maybe throw in adds spawning every 10% and a short AoE stun to mess the healers up.

    While DPS checks have their place, I don't personally see rage timers as a valid way to implement them. I mean, if I'm the boss and I have 40 people attacking me, I'm not going to wait 6 minutes before I let lose on them - if I have the ability to do 500% more damage, I'm going to do that from the start.

    If you want a 6 minute timer on an encounter, have the encounter call his mate down the hall - who then takes 6 minutes to get there. If you don't kill the first encounter in time, you are left fighting two boss encounters at the same time.

    I've said it before, I think, but I hope they look to EQ2 as a basis for their raid development. 

    EQ2 made use of CC - even though boss mobs were immune to CC in general, in some fights it was essential in relation to controlling adds. They could take it further, and Wildstars CC armor mechanic is a good way to do so.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    I wish Steven would release a video to let us know his vision regarding these "little things" rather than a "macro" plan.
  • I wish Steven would release a video to let us know his vision regarding these "little things" rather then a "macro" plan.
    As do I.

    That said, with things like raid content (and even harder single group content), I don't expect the content the game starts out with to be anything other than rudimentary and/or proof of concept. They would want to put encounters in place to see what the playerbase do in order to defeat them, and then develop content on from there.

    I know in most MMO's I've raided in, the best raid content started to come 12 - 24 months after release.

    I know I personally won't be judging the raiding scene (maybe a better term to use than "end game") based on what is available at launch or soon thereafter.
  • Noaani said:
    I wish Steven would release a video to let us know his vision regarding these "little things" rather then a "macro" plan.
    As do I.

    That said, with things like raid content (and even harder single group content), I don't expect the content the game starts out with to be anything other than rudimentary and/or proof of concept. They would want to put encounters in place to see what the playerbase do in order to defeat them, and then develop content on from there.

    I know in most MMO's I've raided in, the best raid content started to come 12 - 24 months after release.

    I know I personally won't be judging the raiding scene (maybe a better term to use than "end game") based on what is available at launch or soon thereafter.
    But... there are so many examples of games (not only MMOs) that they can inspire from. Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning, Torchlight 1/2, Diablo, PoE, Grim Dawn, hell even Hand of Faith 2, Darkest Dungeon... and so on.

    Considering this I believe it wouldn't be fair for us - the players - to NOT expect something above average from the start (and not just slightly above average). If the year was 1999 I'd understand.
  • @Crusader2010

    It isn't an ideas thing that makes me think the first raid level encounters will be somewhat simple. I mean, as you pointed out, there is no end of inspiration for encounter design out there.

    I'd be surprised if more than 10 people have a hand in raid encounter design, and I can tell you now that 1 million players will come up with things 10 developers would never have thought of.

    Once the developers see the kinds of things we come up with, they can start planning encounters around that.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Once the developers see the kinds of things we come up with, they can start planning encounters around that.

    True, they will need to adjust present and future encounters so as to not allow certain "tricks" the players will use to avoid the designed hard(er) parts.

    Yet, I don't think this is going to be easy considering the amount of class combinations and such that we have. If only one "customized by sub-class" ability is going to cause the issues, then there is even a chance that ability will be changed and not the boss fight.

    That was always the case I think, with every game. In my post I was referring to the quality of fights more than the "hidden" Q&A testing that will take place when the game releases :)
  • I actually think this game design itself is going to be a game changer.  If everything looks more realistic, yet still in a high fantasy world, there won't be crazy graphics and colorful markers telegraphing everything a boss does.  And if there's no dps meters and crazy add-ons, people will actually have to pay attention to mechanics and environment more than just watching cooldowns.

    I'd like to see the "dungeon journal(s)" (like in WoW) to be player-made, or at least until all of its secrets are known to the community.  That way even older encounters can still feel fresh and new.  At the most I'd like to see 'Wanted' posters up near where the boss was encountered with maybe a rumor about one or two of its abilities.
  • Caelron said:

    I'd like to see the "dungeon journal(s)" (like in WoW) to be player-made, or at least until all of its secrets are known to the community.  That way even older encounters can still feel fresh and new.  At the most I'd like to see 'Wanted' posters up near where the boss was encountered with maybe a rumor about one or two of its abilities.
    It would go against almost everything Intrepid stand for if they implemented anything at all like this.

    Players may gather the information themselves, and some of it may even be shared, but there won't be a single repository - in game or otherwise - where you can go to find all the information on all the encounters.
  • Caelron said:
    I actually think this game design itself is going to be a game changer.  If everything looks more realistic, yet still in a high fantasy world, there won't be crazy graphics and colorful markers telegraphing everything a boss does.  And if there's no dps meters and crazy add-ons, people will actually have to pay attention to mechanics and environment more than just watching cooldowns.
    You have good point here. That there wont be any add-ons and dps-meters will take the focus away from cooldowns, which is a good thing. Combining that to varying boss mechanics and alternative ways and options to kill the boss are the keys for success. 
  • All 1 phase face roll tank & spank, DPS checks.  Be less whining that way.
  • Crymoar said:
    All 1 phase face roll tank & spank, DPS checks.  Be less whining that way.
    Outstanding! I really hope we dont see much of that crab anymore. It is about time to raise dungeons and raids to new level from the mass.  
  • Ferryman said:
    Crymoar said:
    All 1 phase face roll tank & spank, DPS checks.  Be less whining that way.
    Outstanding! I really hope we dont see much of that crab anymore. It is about time to raise dungeons and raids to new level from the mass.  
    Steven has said they are putting in raid encounters that they expect only a small percentage of players to actually kill.

    That means, to me, they are fine with some whining.
  • Noaani said:
    Ferryman said:
    Crymoar said:
    All 1 phase face roll tank & spank, DPS checks.  Be less whining that way.
    Outstanding! I really hope we dont see much of that crab anymore. It is about time to raise dungeons and raids to new level from the mass.  
    Steven has said they are putting in raid encounters that they expect only a small percentage of players to actually kill.

    That means, to me, they are fine with some whining.
    Well i really hope they are fine with that and the fights wont be just generic tank n spank. And some fights can of course be like that, but i just want to see good amount of variations. I hope that some bosses will be really hard to kill and only some will manage to do that after decent amount effort. 
  • Ferryman said:
    Noaani said:
    Ferryman said:
    Crymoar said:
    All 1 phase face roll tank & spank, DPS checks.  Be less whining that way.
    Outstanding! I really hope we dont see much of that crab anymore. It is about time to raise dungeons and raids to new level from the mass.  
    Steven has said they are putting in raid encounters that they expect only a small percentage of players to actually kill.

    That means, to me, they are fine with some whining.
    Well i really hope they are fine with that and the fights wont be just generic tank n spank. And some fights can of course be like that, but i just want to see good amount of variations. I hope that some bosses will be really hard to kill and only some will manage to do that after decent amount effort. 
    This is what I'm hoping for as well.

    They have developers from games that have produced what I consider to be the best raid encounters ever produced for an MMORPG (that I have played), so my hopes are high.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    I give an example how different kind of boss strategies can be implemented in game, so those can be defeated with different kind of group compositions.

    Lets say we have a boss, which summons at phase 2 a really powerful monster (add), which is slightly faster than players and it starts to hunt them.
    1. Maybe off-tank can take the aggro and take the high damage.
    2. Maybe it can be CCed with slows/roots/stuns so it cant reach players.
    3. Maybe some class can speed buff allies so it cant reach players.
    4. Maybe shield buffs absorbs enough damage to survive.
    5. Maybe off-healing helps to heal through high damage.
    6. Maybe debuffer can reduce the incoming damage. (EDIT)
    And this was just an example how every role can be made important and how different fights can be created so those can be defeated with different strategies. 
  • roll a nat 20 and let all hell lose ^^
  • I would love to see end game bosses have many abilities and then "read" the group composition and uses a subset of those abilities. 

    For example:
    The Boss has 20 underlying abilities/mechanics but only uses 5 in any given fight. 
    Boss looks at the plays going against him and chooses the abilities based on that.
    -Group Melee DSP heavy..flies into the air for parts, tail sweeps for back damage
    -Group ranged DSP heavy...jumps to ranged, puts up temp damage shield against ranged
    -Group Heal heavy... extra AoE damage to push healers
     If there isn't real unbalances in group composition, they are chosen at random. 

  • Honestly I want to do away with dps or at least make it a very niche class. I want it to be about support, healing, and tanking. I want them all to deal similar damage but have different roles.

    • Tank should be able to control enemies and absorb a lot of damage.
    • Healers should be able to protect and heal allies.
    • Support should be able to crowd control, buff, and debuff. 

    The damage should be be pretty even but with support buffing allies, make it go faster. If this was the case then mechanics could be built around enemy control so that bosses aren't just one big tank and spank. Of course each archetype will be closer to one end or the other on the trinity and each subclass would push them in one direction or the other. Then on top of that we have a limited action bar so it wouldn't be too crazy to see each class get one or two hard hitters that you could slot in instead of a cc or utility.

    IDK, I'm tired of the dps mindset and how it has poisoned a lot of what it means to be a valued teammate or responsible raid member. It has gone from people knowing what to do in a situation to everyone being mindless glass canons that complain when a fight takes more than a few minutes. 
  • Loyheta said:
    Honestly I want to do away with dps or at least make it a very niche class. I want it to be about support, healing, and tanking. I want them all to deal similar damage but have different roles.

    • Tank should be able to control enemies and absorb a lot of damage.
    • Healers should be able to protect and heal allies.
    • Support should be able to crowd control, buff, and debuff. 

    The damage should be be pretty even but with support buffing allies, make it go faster. If this was the case then mechanics could be built around enemy control so that bosses aren't just one big tank and spank. Of course each archetype will be closer to one end or the other on the trinity and each subclass would push them in one direction or the other. Then on top of that we have a limited action bar so it wouldn't be too crazy to see each class get one or two hard hitters that you could slot in instead of a cc or utility.

    IDK, I'm tired of the dps mindset and how it has poisoned a lot of what it means to be a valued teammate or responsible raid member. It has gone from people knowing what to do in a situation to everyone being mindless glass canons that complain when a fight takes more than a few minutes. 
    It isn't DPS that turn people into mindless glass cannons on raids, it is sub-par raid content.

    Play a game with good raid content and DPS knowing what they are doing is as important - or moreso - than the tank and healers knowing what they are doing.
  • SWTOR had excellent, EXCELLENT, raid balance and were mathematically designed by the numbers in addition to a huge variety of mechanics.

    I expect AoC will have a lot of Tank n' Spank based on the Dev's desire to make all class varieties viable.  I also expect a lot of chaos inducing mechanics to hide this and to make it more interesting than a Tank n' Spank.

    Non-instanced, open-world, oppurtunistic events, provide limits on what devs can do for balancing, thus reducing it back to a tank n' spank model.

    tl;dr - Based on what the Devs said they would do, I would expect a lot of chaotic things like AoE to step out of and adds, on top of Tank and Spank mechanics.
  • Personally, before Boss Mechanics , the NPCs' A.I. is the first thing to tackle tbh
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