Options

Concept- Identity, making 'YOU' matter.

This is my thoughts on the latest stream here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcozxUDr8wA&feature=youtu.be
...this is a text wall. But I think its worth it in the way it tries to tie together peoples thoughts and feelings, with ashes basic concepts, in a very tightly woven system. This took all day to try and express and conceptualise and I got tired. It could be structured much better no doubt. Apologies for that.


Concerning the need for skill based combat, crafting to matter (which means gear has to matter), the need for individual identity but as a required part of a team, and the concept of a legendary quality system with legendary boss fights; I am beginning to get my head around how to materialise such a world out of the Aether, in a way that makes sense in a fully mutually dependant way. Where not just the node matters to you, but what every other player has done, is doing and intends to do. Where 8192 roles are actually required, even if they are not filled by 8192 players.

1. First picture the scene that legendary players would not be legendary if they were common, anymore than gear would. And such players are not legendary because of the gear that they wear, but because of the battles they will fight, in a heroic way. Which ties legendary gear to legendary bosses, epic gear to epic bosses and so forth. In other words....gear quality is tied to adversary existence. So the higher the quality of gear in circulation, the harder the bosses in circulation. The more quality gear exists, the more of the quality adversaries exist. This is the starting picture. Your ever escalating lust for greater power, results in the world pushing back ever harder. Note that there is nothing about locking adversaries to specific locations mentioned here. It is the adversary that matters rather than their location and Steven has already broken this typical mutual relationship. Varied and individual environments will need to be crossed, in order to track mobile adversaries, through any kind of hostile territory and terrain, that may well require the utility skills of all 8 archetypes, even if they arent all necessarily required for the final combat. Neither should the location of the components required for the tuned gear, necessarily be found in the same place at all times and may also need dynamic tracking.

2. Rarity must come with quality/grade status. And taken to the extreme, there would be 1 player for 1 role...or more correctly, 1+ legendary player, with specific/tuned/harmonic legendary gear to take down 1 specific/tuned/harmonic legendary nemesis. The problem most games suffer is like real life.  If a countries population is 1,000,000 and you have 1,000,000 nurses, the country wont survive, because the nation is dependant on a myriad of specialist niche roles in innovation, creation, maintenance and destruction. Yet somehow in the modern world people just train for any job they want, whether such a position exists for them or not, creating a glut of staff in some professions and a shortage in others. Just as in a gaming world where the DD is OP, you will get a server full of damage dealers and you probably didnt want that. It would be much more efficient then, to ensure a role existed for each player to start with (8192 of them in the case of an ashes 'community' server, rather than the 8 needed for typical isolated/independent multiplayer groups like a themepark system). Which means there must be a whole range of predefined roles that are selected from and become locked out when taken. This should be painting an image of a tree with several branches, with a hierarchy of quality/specialisation, that get locked out by the players through a mix of both personal preference and in-game progression. But what happens if a player doesnt play any more or wants to switch roles ? And should a veteran of such a position not be able to share the experience of the role that they have mastered ? We can model this....

Level 4 Legendary (16-32 player progression)... 1-2 players x4 professions x1/1024 legendary nemesis = 4096x2 legendary roles (Race & Secondary Class specific)
1024 specialist combat roles of which there is 1 specialist nemesis for each, that requires 1 legendary gear set (for both the mentor and matched novice). These can only be provide by 1024 specialist gatherer pairs, 1024 specialist processing pairs and 1024 specialist crafting pairs. Thus we have a group of 4x1-2 players associated with 1024 unique legendary nemesis. The training and gear required for this would be rare and time consuming. The nemesis would not exist until the gear exists and the combat specialist unlocked who would wield it. The nemesis would cause damage equivalent to node penalties until vanquished. The gear would give buffs to the node instead. Only the tuned/tailor made legendary artefact would be able to destroy the tuned tailor made nemesis and destroy itself in the process (also requiring additional protective support). Perhaps that nemesis destroys other peoples nodes and leaves you unharmed, so you can enjoy the buffs and laugh at the misfortune of others. Perhaps your neighbour will burn your city down, to get the artefact, to kill the nemesis that is destroying theirs. Perhaps the specific type of damage the nemesis does is of no concern to the build makeup of your node, even if it attacks you at leisure.

Level 3 Epic (8-16 player progression)...1-2 player x4 professions x8/1024 epic nemesis = 4096x2 epic roles (Secondary class specific)
Crafting/gathering/refining/combat would be pretty dull if there was only ever one gear set required of you and one boss for you to fight, once in a blue moon (even if 1023 other legendaries exist for you to avoid). So the legendary gear upgrade is a subset of Epic gear and epic adversaries. Here there are an additional 1024 Epic adversaries that can be attacked and defeated by any of 8 Epic players of this 8x more generic build type. Each of these require their own support team like the legendary. Each Epic role branches into 8 legendary roles.

Level 2 Superior (4-8 player progression)...1-2 player x4 professions x64/1024 superior nemesis = 4096x2 superior roles (Archetype specific)
There are 64 superior build types that can take down any superior adversary as the tuning is not so specific as epic or legendary.

Level 1 Fine (2-4 player progression)....1-2 player x4 professions x512/1024 fine nemesis = 4096x2 fine roles (magical/physical specific)
There are 512 fine build types that can take down any fine adversary as the tuning is not so specific as superior, epic or legendary.

Level 0 Normal (1-2 player progression)....1-2 player x4 professions x1024/1024 normal foes = 4096x2 normal roles
There would be 1024 each of gatherer/processor/crafter/combat build types that can take down any normal adversary as the build tuning is agnostic (Mentor+Student).

Thus each role is optionally doubled up, to allow auto-scaled content difficulty through zerging the content with double the numbers, but only when mentoring identical builds.
The same total reward for the same difficulty of content, should however be shared among more people to allow and reflect the true risk vs reward.
Any legendary crafter/gatherer/processor can now craft/gather/process for 1024/1024 normal gear sets, 512/1024 fine build sets, 64/1024 superior build sets, 8/1024 epic build sets, and 1/1024 legendary build sets for combat/craft/gathering/processing, to keep them and the gatherers/processors busy.
Level 0 is for 1-2 player, 1 target AoE cap skill progression, that can only be mastered when all 1024 level 0 foes have been defeated and unlocks level 1, through level 1 gear component rewards (select 1/2 fine build branches for gatherer/processor/crafter/combat).
Level 1 is for 2-4 player, 2 target AoE cap synergy skill progression, that can only be mastered when all 512 level 1 foes have been defeated and unlocks level 2, through level 2 gear component rewards (select 1/8 superior build branches for gatherer/processor/crafter/combat).
Level 2 is for 4-8 player, 4 target AoE cap synergy skill progression, that can only be mastered when all 64 level 2 foes have been defeated and unlocks level 3, through level 3 gear component rewards (select 1/8 epic build branches for gatherer/processor/crafter/combat).
Level 3 is for 8-16 player, 8 target AoE cap synergy skill progression, that can only be mastered when all 8 level 3 foes have been defeated and unlocks level 4, through level 4 gear component rewards (select 1/8 legendary build branches for gatherer/processor/crafter/combat).
Level 4 is for 16-32 player, 16 target AoE cap synergy skill progression, that can only be mastered when 'your personal' level 4 foe has been defeated.

PvP progression should come through a similar AoE cap progression, but this time through build unique synergies and conquering all build types of all quality.
Each AoE should come with quality based scaled 'synergies' that are build specific and the PvP player is required to use all of them.
That can only be accomplished by mutual experience with all possible build types as both allies and enemies.
Because a specific build is required to beat a specific PvE adversary, it matters not if a PvE player attacks the PvE nemesis to gain progression components, or a PvP players defeats that PvE build to gain their build components.
Legendary gear should target specific archetypal, secondary & racial differences in PvE and PvP.
Epic gear should target specific archetypal & secondary differences in PvE and PvP.
Superior gear should target specific archetypal differences in PvE and PvP.
Fine gear should target specific magical/physical differences in PvE and PvP.

Comments

  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Wow, this mindset is so bizarre to me - but that's OK. 
    Different strokes is what makes the world go round - and ultimately what gives us 8192 different roles which don't need to be predefined.

    RPGs, including MMORPGs, allow for a wide variety of different playstyles - which will lead to player characters with a wide variety of different roles.
    In my view, legendary players/characters are not defined by gear - rather they are defined by their roles in the community.
    Not simply who can defeat legendary bosses via legendary gear, but who breeds the coolest pets or the most prolific pets, who has the coolest costumes at costume parties, who decorates or builds the coolest houses, who has the coolest set of abilities outside of the min-maxed, cookie-cutter, flavor-of-the-month class builds, who organizes the most entertaining events, who hosts the most entertaining streams.
    Legendary, for me, will be the leaders of the cities and the people who stand out as being exceptional in my city. Might be the person with the best tavern in town or the owner of my favorite shop.

    I don't think I quite agree that Legendary gear and Epic gear should target specific archetypal and secondary differences.
    Rather, we should expect Legendary and Epic gear to have the traits and themes of the bosses/content that dropped the gear. More importantly, the resources dropped should have those traits and themes...and then we should have those resources crafted into the gear that best suits our character's race and archetype and artisan class.

    It should be the opposite - that the gear does not exist until crafted from the boss drops. My raid should be using Epic gear to defeat the Legendary boss. And then using the dropped resources to craft Legendary gear as a reward for defeating a Legendary boss.
  • Options
    Everyone wants to be the hero of the story, not the peon. If you want confirmation look at Life is Feudal that went for the concept of everyone is just a normal grunt, with a few people who are "special" if they paid for the privilege. Turns out very few people just want to grind mindlessly to profit another player.
  • Options
    Oh!
    nagash tagged my post - which reminded me...

    Legendary, to me, would be nagash showing up at a siege with his army of Undead followers - players wearing Undead skins over whatever type of armor they have.
    Wouldn't matter whether nagash had acquired Legendary gear yet or whether any of is army had acquired epic gear.
    nagash's Legendary role would be pushing forward the story of his Undead army spreading across the world.
    Doesn't matter whether nagash wins or loses - he becomes the Lex Luthor or Joker of his server.
  • Options
    Dygz said:
    Oh!
    nagash tagged my post - which reminded me...

    Legendary, to me, would be nagash showing up at a siege with his army of Undead followers - players wearing Undead skins over whatever type of armor they have.
    Wouldn't matter whether nagash had acquired Legendary gear yet or whether any of is army had acquired epic gear.
    nagash's Legendary role would be pushing forward the story of his Undead army spreading across the world.
    Doesn't matter whether nagash wins or loses - he becomes the Lex Luthor or Joker of his server.
    To be fair that is the glorious cult of nagash. I bring the gift of immortality and unity yet you flesh bags have yet to embrace my gifts.
  • Options
    @Dygz

    Being the best at something involves effort.
    The progression system ensures that effort is required..and proportional or fair.
    As opposed to rewarded through prejudicial favouritism.
    Like 'you' deciding who is best is a subjective thing from a personal viewpoint.
    It is only an objective thing from a collective viewpoint.

    The idea is that the gear has the traits of the bosses you defeat.
    Thats the whole point behind the synergy/tuned/harmonic concept.
    Nemesis identity /Relic relationship /Player identity and its unique group synergies associated with the gear are all inseparably related.

    The grading system just defines how 'specific' this relationship is.
    This specificity is what progression is at the end of the day.
    As you progress you fine tune your build and make yourself more unique.
    But most importantly, no body starts unique....they end up unique.
    They progress from just a general dogs body, to someone special.
    They carve out and develop their own role or niche.
    The system espoused simply reflects that.
    It ensures the niche they choose actually exists for them to occupy.
    Rather than the typical adopt a useless hybrid that everyone laughs at because they are useless.

    PS. Perhaps I mis wrote something.
    Synergies come from the bosses you defeat and reflect the bosses you defeat.
    Those synergies simply become more targetted with progression.
    You are in effect moving from genrera to several levels of ever more specific sub-species if you like.
    Which matches your build developments ever greater specialisation.
    You dont progress from physical to magical to tank to damage dealer moving sideways into a different style.
    You move from magical > magical tank > magical tank/bard > magical tank/tank-bard/human (even if the racial aspect is preselected at game start)

    The normal content drop normal components that unlock fine and enable you to tackle the fine boss.
    The fine content drop fine components that unlock superior and enable you to tackle the superior boss.
    etc.


  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Yeah, very small population cares about being the best.
    But, more importantly, being the best is not the only thing that makes people in MMORPGs matter.
    Also, being the best is not  necessarily what makes people in MMORPGs legendary.

    The title of the topic is: Identity, Making 'You' Matter
    And then you focus the OP on being "best" and legendary boss fights.
    ???????

    I don't understand what you are referring to as the progression system or how that relates to the topic. Are you talking about Leveling in the game or what you outlined in OP point #2?
    In RPGs, rewards are commonly subjective and not just about who is "objectively best" in combat based on numbers. There are many ways to reward people for effort in their roles without "best" as a factor - even in MMORPGs.

    Nemesis identity and relic relationship doesn't necessarily relate to player character identity or group synergy. If I am an Ice ArchWizard, I'm probably not going to be wearing gear enchanted with the relics of a Fire Dragon, especially if that gear has a Fire themed appearance. And I'm probably not going to be using augments that are Fire-themed - regardless of what the rest of my group does.
    Because my role is Ice-themed; not Fire-themed.
    And, what's important where it comes to ID and making oneself matter is being notable in my role as an Ice ArchWizard; not necessarily being the "best" Ice ArchWizard in terms of numbers in combat.
    Perhaps, if I can use the relics from a Fire Dragon to provide Fire resistance and I can mask the Fire-themed appearance with an Ice-themed appearance and I expect to spend a lot more time fighting Fire-themed foes, that relic might be used for that identity and might in some indirect manner synergize with the rest of my group.

    I can't agree that the grading system and relationship of nemesis identity/relic relationship/player identity and unique group synergies associated with gear is what progression is about.
    Nor can I agree that nobody starts unique.
    Uniqueness can start with a name.
    When I want to ensure that my character is unique and stands out from the moment I leave character creation, I choose a name like Humuhumunukunukuapuua.
    And then I give the character quirks, like only being able to wear starting rags for armor. That character had to learn to matter in other ways besides being best at combat. But, was legendary in any case because it was notable to see a max level character adventuring in max level lands only wearing starting rags for armor.

    Making your character unique -if that's the goal of the player- begins with a unique name. And continues with a unique race/class combo. In Wow, I would typically run a Forsaken straight out of character create over to the Tauren starting area or a Tauren straight out of character create over to the Troll starting area.
    Because that provides a unique starting experience.
    Building the uniqueness of your character continues with skill choices and gear choices. And, in Ashes, will include augment choices and affiliation with religion and social organizations.

    For some groups, the synergies may not come from the relics and gear much at all.
    Hopefully, group synergies will primarily come from using augments and secondary archetypes to complement individual strengths and weaknesses.
    A group that is focused on an Undead theme or a Shadow theme may not care at all about the relics from defeated Fire Dragon... beyond the sale price of the relics.

    Individual players carve out their own niches in a wide variety of ways that aren't necessarily associated with wearing the best gear in the game. That sort of playstyle is niche not merely due to effort, but also due to lack of interest.

    The gear progression you presented, again, is bizarre to me because I don't expect to be seeking Legendary AOE gear.
    The EQNext game design included an ability called Unsummon. And my goal for that game was to have a character who maximizes Unsummon. Which would not mean that the devs have to create Legendary gear designed to maximize the Unsummon ability. Rather, it would be up to me to find or craft the gear which maximizes the stats that best support my chosen role. And it would be up to me to find groups who enjoy my talents and/or who can use my talents to their advantage - especially if we can synergize our abilities.
    In Ashes, I expect to be seeking gear that maximizes my Stealth. If I defeat a Legendary Fire Dragon, I don't expect to be using Fire Dragon relics to make my character unique or to synergize with my group.
    Even if I choose to try to defeat Legendary Shadow bosses in order to get the best Shadow gear in the game, I expect most of my encounters with Legendary bosses to come from needing to defend my Metropolis from Legendary creatures. Whatever Legendary creatures appear to threaten my home. Those creatures are not necessarily going to reflect my role.

    What will be very interesting to see, from my  view, is whether the gear in certain regions does reflect the creature and race and climate of specific regions.
    Will players in an arctic region tend to wear arctic-related gear?
    Will players in a volcanic region tend to wear Fire-themed gear?
    That could make for a fascinating form of synergy that would be rather unique to Ashes, I think.

    I also don't agree that we move from magical --> magical tank, etc.
    In Ashes, I'm choosing Stealth first. That happens to be Physical. But, I'm really choosing Physical-Rogue simultaneously rather than Physical --> Rogue. AFAIK.
    I haven't seen Ashes character create in Alpha-0.
    And I'm going for Vek/Rogue because that seems to be fairly unique rather than trying to be the best Rogue on my server. What my specific role will be, I haven't decided yet, but it's unlikely that it will be a niche designed by the devs. Rather, it will be a niche that I carve for myself.

    I do expect that Basic gear will be worn before acquiring Fine gear - and most commonly Fine gear would be worn before acquiring Epic gear.
    I'm not sure "unlocking" is how I would describe that concept, but that at least loosely describes how content is affected by node progression, so reasonably accurate for Ashes game design. Yes.
  • Options
    In the end, players are going to be who they want to be. The game gives us the tools, but we are the one who makes our characters and from that our legend grows. Making everything mathematical and stating how it should work in a logical sense will not work as we are human and we don't work like that. e.g. people wear weaker armour just to look nice when the stats of an item may be far superior, but it looks out of place. in the end, it's up to how the individual person plays.
  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Everyone wants to be the hero of the story, not the peon. If you want confirmation look at Life is Feudal that went for the concept of everyone is just a normal grunt, with a few people who are "special" if they paid for the privilege. Turns out very few people just want to grind mindlessly to profit another player.
    Not sure what you are trying to say.

    Much like node development increment the node level (quality if you like).
    Much like majority race determines node structures (overall build type).
    This takes the concept considerably further where the existance of roles dictates the content that is added...and its type.

    Every role (rather than player that occupies it) that exists, comes with its own storyline.
    More build variety...more varied story.

    It also eliminates the FoTM issue instantly among many other benfits.
    All build styles not only become relevant, they become required in a way.
    Its guaranteed variety.

    This is a role playing game. The difference is, unlike most games, these roles are all predefined with a purpose to exist. Rather than something to try for shits and giggles. Each role.....has a destiny.
  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    @Dygz

    I dont think I explained myself very well or you have completely missed what the OP is about.
    The stronger the identity the more unique someone is.
    See my response to @UnknownSystemError

    Its the individuality and degree of specialization that in effect drive story-line.
    These roles existence (or not) add or remove content.
    These roles are the leading players of that particular story.
    Some are specific, some are more generic.
    That is determined by the grading.

    These roles bring the synergy skills for use at the right time in the right place against the right adversary.
    Which is the story they drive for which they will be present.
  • Options
    The more unique someone is, the stronger the identity.

    It's the individuality and specialization that help drive the story line - that is not inherently tied to gear progression, although gear progression is typically a factor.

    The characters are the leading players of their particular story.
    The individual players define their specific role in the story - not the devs.
    The devs provide us with generic class roles.
    But, it's not even necessarily the class roles that define legendary player characters in an MMORPG, let alone their gear.

    Class roles don't necessarily bring the synergy of skills.
    Individual player characters will bring the synergy based on the specific abilities they choose and the augments they choose and the gear they choose - and then how the individual players choose to support the abilities of players nearby.

    And, then, as I said in a previous post, how the players choose to synergize their abilities may have nothing to do with the gear they acquired from defeating a Legendary boss.
    If the group is focused on Shadow-themed abilities, they are unlikely to be interested in using relics from a Legendary Fire Dragon. Their abilities will be synergized around a Shadow theme or, perhaps, and Undead theme, rather than a Fire theme.
    And it's also unlikely that they will be thinking about how they need to maximize their AoE gear.

    It's not possible to eliminate flavor-of-the-month builds.
    Min/Maxers will always come up with a flavor-of-the-month, cookie-cutter, "best" gear and "best" class build.
    Being unique is often about not being "best".
  • Options
    Yea, i don't think the game needs to tell you are awesome. A player should be considered "legendary" because of their actions and how they have affected their server. You will become known by working with or against other players.
  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Yea, i don't think the game needs to tell you are awesome. A player should be considered "legendary" because of their actions and how they have affected their server. You will become known by working with or against other players.
    Example one: ME!!!

    That is all
  • Options
    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    @nagash you need to make us mindless zombies first :mrgreen: only then will we acknowledge your awesomeness.
  • Options
    hrmph.  This brings full circle what I don't like about Cash shops.  There are few ways in a game to build reputation in modern MMOs. 

    Now, in some games it could be done through Building; say SWG where you could actually build a city.  In holy trinity games with small server populations like EQ; you simply had reputation because people were locked into your server game space and hey; if you were a good healer; you were a good healer and it was known.  In modern, multishard MMOs that's harder.

    In WoW you could gain a temporary buff by hanging Onyxia's and other dragons heads in your cities.  Most basically your wear your reputation and accomplishments on your sleeve.  

    Without a system of NPC recognition where they bow or build you statues or call out your name.  The only way to show your achievements to other players are through your acquisitions.  That unique armor, fiery sword, etc.

    Cash shops which let people basically look like whomever they want on day 1 with 20 bucks completely negates the look and feel of an accomplished hero.
  • Options
    Since we have open world housing, it should be quite easy for individuals to be known in their local nodes.
    The most popular taverns and shops in a town will very likely be owned by players, for example.
  • Options
    I want to sit in a tavern/inn somewhere I stumbled upon while adventuring and get to know that player or players. Sure I could aim to be another patron in the big city but the stories told off the beaten path are the most memorable. 
  • Options
    Yeah, especially when people aren't all doing the same exact static quests!!!
  • Options
    makinoji said:
    I want to sit in a tavern/inn somewhere I stumbled upon while adventuring and get to know that player or players. Sure I could aim to be another patron in the big city but the stories told off the beaten path are the most memorable. 
    Didn't steven say there are quests you can only get from spending time in taverns ?
  • Options
    nagash said:
    makinoji said:
    I want to sit in a tavern/inn somewhere I stumbled upon while adventuring and get to know that player or players. Sure I could aim to be another patron in the big city but the stories told off the beaten path are the most memorable. 
    Didn't steven say there are quests you can only get from spending time in taverns ?

    Yes, he did.  I found somewhere that as Taverns level up they can earn quests to give out.  Perhaps if you man the tavern you could make up your own, too.
  • Options
    T-Elf said:
    nagash said:
    makinoji said:
    I want to sit in a tavern/inn somewhere I stumbled upon while adventuring and get to know that player or players. Sure I could aim to be another patron in the big city but the stories told off the beaten path are the most memorable. 
    Didn't steven say there are quests you can only get from spending time in taverns ?

    Yes, he did.  I found somewhere that as Taverns level up they can earn quests to give out.  Perhaps if you man the tavern you could make up your own, too.
    May be they could be NPC guilds like monster hunters 
  • Options
    Pogybait said:
    hrmph.  This brings full circle what I don't like about Cash shops.  There are few ways in a game to build reputation in modern MMOs. 

    Without a system of NPC recognition where they bow or build you statues or call out your name.  The only way to show your achievements to other players are through your acquisitions.  That unique armor, fiery sword, etc.

    Cash shops which let people basically look like whomever they want on day 1 with 20 bucks completely negates the look and feel of an accomplished hero.
    I disagree. While cash shop cosmetics let players look different on day 1, how many MMOs that have cash shop cosmetics have also have in-game acquirable cosmetics by completing achievements? Few, because having badass looking in-game cosmetics will probably hurt their cash shop sales.

    After week one you can probably recognize the cosmetic sets from KS/Pre-purchase cash shop/on launch cash shop item so that you can assume they don't have anything good. That being said, if I want to show off my achievements down the road in this game I won't hesitate for a second to rip off my KS cosmetics to display that [insert this game's equivalent of a firecape from RS] item.

    Hell I won't wear my KS stuff for a while at launch because I'll probably be judged and/or PK'd by some salty dude in stock armor.
Sign In or Register to comment.