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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The architecture that appears when the node advances to the next stage reflects the race that contributed most to the growth of the node.
So, my point was that I'm going to do what needs to be done to ensure that the node I'm a citizen of progresses to become a Vek Scientific or Divine node.
That could involve de-leveling my own node at some point to accomplish that.
With regard to node v node conflict - that means I will be keeping an eye out on rival nodes close to reaching the City stage and do whatever is necessary to ensure that my city isn't locked out from becoming a Metropolis.
I don't think those rivals for the Metropolis stage are going to be on my border - I think they will be farther away.
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But, you raise some great questions that I haven't thought much about since the first couple of months I review the Nodes vids.
I might be conflating aspects of Castle influence and Zone of Influence
How many nodes are in one ZOI?
How many ZOI's are associated with a Castle?
Steven says that all of the nodes associated with a Castle must Military nodes and can only reach the Village stage, max.
So... how many nodes are associated with a Metropolis?
This indicates to me that the ZOI does expand as the stage of the node advances and that the ZOI could encompass multiple smaller nodes.
I think that the primary architecture will match that of the Parent Node, but the types of smaller nodes could be a hodgepodge based on whatever seeds the devs planted in the region.
I don't know that the architecture of the smaller nodes will match the architecture of the Parent Node.
I don't even know for sure whether the architecture always matches whatever race dominated the camp or whether the new architecture could reflect the race that contributed most to the advancement to the next stage.
Whichever the case, I would be doing whatever it takes to ensure that my home Node primarily reflects a Vek Scientific or Divine Metropolis.
If that means I have to node v node warfare to ensure that my Scientific Node is one of the 5 to become a Metropolis so be it.
If I have to de-level my Town to make sure that it continues to primarily reflect Vek architecture, I will do that.
And, of course, I can't do that alone, so I would have to depend on a community of players to help me achieve that vision, but it's also quite likely to entail some node v node conflict with nearby Nodes and possibly some neighboring Nodes.
Though again, I don't think that the rivalry for the Metropolis stage will be with neighboring Nodes. I think there will be more distance.
TL;DR
It seems to me that if the radius of a node depends on the node's development and the ZOI of a Stage 6 Metropolis may encompass multiple smaller Nodes, that means that the ZOI expands as the Node expands.
The castles.
Castles come with three nodes that are excluded from the general node/ZoI system.
Though, I'm still trying to play catch up, so I could be wrong.
When a nodes ZoI takes over a smaller node, that node can only level up to one level below the parent node. Once at that level, any experience earned in that node funnels up to the parent node, until the parent node has leveled up allowing the daughter node to gain a level again.
So, a level five node could have three level four nodes in it's zoI, and these could also have a number of level three nodes.
This means that is that guild wants to keep a single architecture type, they need to control the population of potentially more than a dozen nodes.
Again, not saying it's impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely and a whole lot of work for no material benefit.
In effect, the ZOI expands when the Metropolis expands. So, the ZOI becomes the size of a Metropolis ZOI rather than the size of a City ZOI.
I used ZOI rather than Node because I was referencing the expansion of neighboring City ZOIs/nations into a Metropolis/empire sized ZOI rather than neighboring/border (smaller) Camp and Village Nodes on the outskirts of a City becoming a Metropolis Node.
I play RPGs primarily for RP, so, of course I'm going to be highly interested in the architecture and fashion and gear and augments and culture of my race.
And I'm quite sure their will be many, many players also interested in making sure that their home nodes reflect the culture of their race - especially since Ashes has racial progression.
Because it won't just be the architecture, it will also be the NPCs and building types and services and racial quests and racial augments that become available.
I expect if I want top end Vek augments, I'm going to have to get them from a Vek Metropolis. Same with top end Vek food and top end Vek mounts and pets.
I don't think community will change quite as much as you may be suggesting.
I think local communities will remain fairly stable as we build up and defend our home towns and transform them into cities.
I didn't say anything about excluding races. I don't know why you brought that up.
Also, I don't know why you mentioned a single player.
A single player can't transform a node into a Metropolis.
Which means I have to find a server where there are enough people who wish to create a Vek Science or Divine Metropolis and who will be willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill that vision. Which shouldn't be too difficult to do since there will be racial starting areas, and, as I said earlier, I might need to compromise and accept a Ren'Kai Science or Divine Node.
But, in addition to building a community that has the shared vision of a Vek (or KaiVek) Science or Divine Node, that means we are likely going to have to engage in node v node warfare. Sometimes that may be with neighbor Nodes - especially in the early stages because we will want to prevent our home Node from getting locked out or absorbed and/or because we want tor try to lock rival Nodes (Military and Economic Nodes) at the Town stage so we don't have to worry about rivals being at the City stage.
It says the ZoI expands to other zones, which we all know and have been talking about. Problem is, it doesn't say what the effect of that expanded ZoI is.
You need to find a quote that says the ZoI of a node pushes the architecture of the parent node on to the child nodes within it's ZoI - not a quote simply confirming that ZoI's exist and can expand in to other nodes.
I would be willing to wager a considerable amount of actual money that this would not be the case.
Since the race of a metropolis is out of the hands of players, it goes against everything Intrepid stand for in regards to player agency to implement something like this.
Racial mounts are a thing in Ashes. We know this. Each race has *one* racial mount. If I were to guess, I would say that this racial mount was a part of a questline that could be done before level 20 - conjecture, but with as much basis as saying they will be tied to racial specific nodes.
Racial augments for abilities are a thing as well. We know this as well. However, we have absolutely no reason at all to think that players need to perform any kind of action at all to earn an augment. There is no talk on ability augments being dropped or quested, or tied to node progression in any manner.
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So far, the only thing we have been told race affects in terms of nodes is the architecture, and we have been told it affects only the node itself, not the ZoI.
Everything else is your conjecture.
That is fine, you are allowed to have things that you hope the game will become. Thing is, you are posting it as if that is what Intrepid want the game to become, and stating that is how specific systems are being designed, when we have no reason at all to think that is the case.
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There are four starting areas in the game, but Intrepid have already said players can pick and chose what area they wish to start at regardless of race, so they aren't exactly racial starting areas, even if they have been called that in the past.
If you think you can use a starting area in order to get away from other races, you will likely be disappointed.
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The reason I bought up excluding other races is because there is no way you are going to succeed in getting one race - especially a race as generally unpopular as orcs - to level up a metropolis with anything other than pure luck without excluding other races. Even if you put in a solid attempt to bring as many of either orc as you can along, statistics are still working against you if you leave the general population in the mix as well.
Now, if you had have said you want to work on either elven sub-races, I'd say statistics are more on your side and it may *actually* work. In either case though, the number of people involved in leveling up a metropolis (not exaggerating when I say a thousand or more), it would still take a whole lot of luck to get it one specific race.
That is patently false.
The type of Node is somewhat out of the hands of the players in that it's fixed by location by the devs. But, we get to choose which type we want to focus on once we determine where the types are located.
The racial style of architecture is first determined by the race that contributes most to the development of the Node when the Node reaches the Camp Stage. We will also be able to tell the racial style based on the race of the NPCs that dominate the camp.
So, if we level Node A to a Camp and see that it's a Scientific Node, it will always be a Scientific Node. If we see that there are Vek NPCs there, we know the architecture of the Camp is also Vek.
If Node A is de-leveled down to 0, but the next time Py'Rai contribute most to the development of the Node, when it reaches the Camp Stage, Node A will be a Py'Rai Scientific Node.
That is a certainty. And exemplifies how players determine the racial flavor of Nodes.
What I don't know is whether the Metropolis will automatically be a Vek Metropolis because the Camp was a Vek Camp or whether the new architecture and NPCs reflect whichever race contributed most in the advancement of the Stage. Such that a Vek Camp might progress into a Py'Rai Town and then into Nikua City.
That seems a bit too chaotic, but I'm not aware of the devs weighing in on how that works.
It's not particularly relevant to node v node warfare.
Whichever the case may be - when the Metropolis does pop to the next Stage, it should reflect the dominant race of the Parent Node. Especially, the NPCs, but any new buildings as well. And that should continue with the style of buildings the player government builds.
It doesn't really matter if the architecture of Node C doesn't change immediately when its absorbed by the ZOI of Node A. The NPCs that pop there, and continue to arrive there, should reflect the race of the Parent Node. And, when the government of Node A builds new buildings in Node C, they should reflect the dominant race of Node A.
Pretty sure that's the type of thing "a Node's Zone of Influence" refers to.
I have no clue what you think it means.
The Node's Zone of Influence increases but it doesn't actually influence anything.
Again, even if that weren't true.
If I'm a Vek and I want Node C to reflect the Vek culture of Node A, I'm going to work to make sure that happens, if I'm a leader of Vek Metropolis A.
Even if that means de-leveling from Stage 3 to Stage 0. Or maybe I only have to de-level it to Stage 2 to make a Town C or City C predominantly Vek.
When you hear people like @Aggelos say they hate Elves, I hope you don't really think they're going to let an Elf village that gets absorbed by the ZOI of the Dwarf Metropolis remain an Elf village. If they hate Elves, they're going to do whatever needs to be done to turn it into a Dwarf Node.
There is no way that races have one racial mount that remains fixed at Level 20 with no way to upgrade it to a Level 50 racial mount. That goes against everything the devs have said about the Ashes works.
Ashes has racial progression that includes quests and tasks that will be rewarded with racial augments - among other things.
You may not have been told about that, but I was told about that at PAX West.
And I'm pretty sure that Steven has mentioned that outside of PAX West.
All content in the game is tied to node progression.
You say that the only thing we have been told race affects about the node is the architecture is the architecture, but that is not true. We have also been told that it affects the race of the NPCs that predominantly populates the node.
I don't understand where or how you think the racial progression is going to occur?
You think a Vek is going to be seeking max Vek racial progression at a Py'Rai Metropolis??? Really? What sense does that make? A Py'Rai Metropolis is going to drop max level Vek racial augments??
There are four racial starting areas.
We don't have to start at a starting area that matches our race if we don't want to.
But it will be common for people who care about race to start at the racial starting areas that match their character's race and work to ensure that the Node they are progressing to Metropolis is matches their race. Especially people and guilds who hate specific races.
I am certain that @Aggelos is going to make sure that the Node he calls home does not become an Elf Metropolis. And I am also quite certain he will strive to ensure that there are no Elf Nodes within the ZOI of his home Node.
I didn't say anything like using starting areas to get away from other races.
It's not necessary to get only one race to level up a Node to a Metropolis.
The Metropolis will reflect whichever race contributes most to its development.
So, it doesn't have to be all Vek. It just needs to be predominantly Vek.
And whether it's going to be predominantly Kaivek will most likely be determined by proximity to the Kaivek starting area.
Whether Orcs are popular in Ashes is yet to be determined. We don't know enough about what the races have to offer our characters in terms of racial progression which will support our class choices to know how popular or unpopular Orcs will be in Ashes.
But, it's probable that a server can be found where Orcs collectively choose to "dominate".
At the end of the day, a Metropolis will always predominantly reflect one race because that's the way node progression works. The architecture and NPCs that congregate there reflect the one race that contributes most to the development of Node.
I'm using Vek and Scientific Node as my example because that's what I'm interested.
Whether or not there are enough players for Vek to maintain a Metropolis is irrelevant to the discussion.
It's not just going to be Vek striving to build a Metropolis that reflects their race.
Dunkir will be doing striving to create a Dunkir Metropolis.
Empyrian will be striving to create an Empyrean Metropolis.
Kaelar will be striving to build a Kaelar Metropolis.
Tulnar will be striving to build a Tulnar Metropolis.
There will likely also be some individual Empyrian, Kaelar and Tulnar player characters who choose to become citizens of a Dunkir City/Metropolis.
You have yet to show me how you plan to combat the experience that far more popular races will add to the node you are trying to level up primarily via one race.
How many people do you expect to need?
What we don't know is what will happen when the node levels up again. It is foolish to think the racial flavor the node takes on at level 1 or level 2 will stay with a node until level 6.
Further, you are forgetting that every node that falls within your nodes ZoI then passes it's experience on to your node - if that node is unable to level up further. All of that experience coming from those other nodes has the experience of the players that earned it attached to it.
So while you *may* have the players of one race to influence a node up the first few levels, when you get up to level 4 or level 5 and have many nodes all providing their additional experience to your node, you will need more than just a small band of players to keep the node that unpopular races flavor.
As I've said earlier, a metropolis will have upwards of 1000 people contributing experience to it. Probably more than twice that much in reality.
I mean, it isn't even as if us players can keep track of this. We don't know which race is providing more experience, and for all any of us know, a band of Tulnar may be logging on during the servers offpeak times and providing a mountain of experience to your node that you have no idea about.
You may only need the plurality of experience to be of one race, but ensuring that in itself is a mammoth task for anything short of a very large group of people when you factor in the scope involved.
So, while the architecture of a given node is technically determined by player action, it is not done in a way where players can reasonably affect it, as the scope of it is simply too great.
I think the issue here is that you think most players will pick a node based on race. I can tell you now, most players won't. Most (95%+) of players will pick a node based on either the nodes type or property.
Being a leader of a node doesn't put you in a position where people will follow you, nor is it required for a siege.
If you are now talking of trying to maintain multiple nodes with the same race, including one at metropolis, I hope you have 500+ people to help you out - or have no expectation of holding on for more than a few weeks.
If you start attacking a node purely because of it's racial architecture, expect every other node around you to work together to pull you down - as you literally just painted a big target on your back.
I short of de-leveling the node and then providing masses of one race to re-level it (while the residents of that node are no doubt hostile to them - as they did just de-level the node) there isn't anything that can be done.
We don't even know if mounts have levels, so this comment is taking a huge leap. All we have been told is that races each have *a* unique mount. This was a while ago, and so it may change - but we have not heard about that change as yet. Not sure what to say to this that I haven't already said, so instead of saying something new, I'll quote myself. Not sure how you plan on getting away from a racial starting area in a game without racial starting areas.
I'm going to leave you with a final thought - an exercise to see if you can think independently.
Do you think, with everything that Intrepid stand for, that they will make a game with 9 races, make racial progression important in the game, and then tie that racial progression behind having a metropolis of your specific race, and limiting the number of metropoles on a given server to 5?
Is that not the antithesis of player agency?
1: There will be players striving to ensure that their Metropolis reflects their race. Again, I'm using Vek as an example because that is a race I plan to play.
Doesn't matter for the example whether it's Dwarves or Humans.
There will be guilds and communities of Dwarves striving to ensure that it's Dwarves contributing most towards the progression of their node in to result in a Dwarven Metropolis.
2: People who want to ensure that there is a Dwarven Metropolis (or any other racial Metropolis) will most likely start forming their community via social media well before launch, choose a target server and then start building up a node relatively near the Dunkenzell starting area.
3: If there appears nearby to be a large contingent of -let's say Elves- that rivals the size of the Dwarves, the Dwarves are likely to war with them in order to get their Camp filled with Dwarven NPCs. And/or if Elves have a camp in neighboring Nodes are likely to war with them in order to ensure that the Dwarven Node does not get locked out of the desired development. This is especially true if the community of Dwarves hates Elves.
4: It doesn't really matter how popular the race is when it comes to warring. Sometimes people don't mind being the underdog.
It is highly unlikely that on every server, Orcs are so unpopular that some other race holds the dominant Town closest to the KaiVek starting area.
It is most likely that there will commonly be Villages and Towns near the KaiVek starting area that are made up predominantly by Orcs. And that the KaiVek will strive to ensure that they maintain the dominance in that area.
But, again, that's just one example. The same will be true near the starting areas of the other races. There will commonly be Dwarven Villages and Towns near the Dwarven starting area. And they will fight to ensure that the area remains primarily Dwarven. Doesn't matter if they succeed. There will be node v node wars if Elves encroach upon the area. Especially with those Dwarven communities who hate Elves.
You seem to think it will be common for people to ignore the race of the starting areas and just hodgepodge - what- randomly?
Right.What we don't know is what will happen when the node levels up again. It is foolish to think the racial flavor the node takes on at level 1 or level 2 will stay with a node until level 6.
It may be that the racial markers are fixed once the Parent Node reaches Camp Stage or it may be that there is potential for the racial markers to change every time the Node advances. If that's the case, the people who want to ensure their Metropolis is a Dwarven Metropolis will fight any neighboring nodes with rival numbers that are not Dwarven to ensure that most of the contribution to Node growth in the region is by Dwarves.
It's not foolish to think that the racial flavor the Node takes at Stage 1 or 2 will remain until Stage 6. It's what's most likely to happen near the starting zones. It's not guaranteed. But, it's what's most likely to happen.
I'm not forgetting that at all.
I'm not aware of anything stating that all of the experience coming from the other nodes has all of the experience of the players that earned it attached to it.
Once the ZOI expands to encompass the other Nodes anything that happens within the ZOI contributes to the growth of the Parent Node.
Even if that is the Parent government tearing down old buildings and creating new ones that reflect the race of the Parent Node. AFAIK.
The parent Node might be vulnerable to siege while that is taking place. Sure.
I don't understand why you think it would remain just a small band of players wanting to maintain the racial influence of Metropolis.
Oh. Right.
You think the only benefit is architecture style.
But that is not the only benefit.
Anyways, I have to go hop on a plane.
More later.
Like, needing to siege a Kaelar Metropolis in order to try to open the door to upgrading my Vek City to a Vek Metropolis so I can gain access to max level Vek racial progression.
And it might not be just a small band of Vek sieging that Metropolis. It could be a huge alliance with the Nikua and Tulnar because we prefer the more rustic architecture and Nature aesthetics, powers and benefits, over the Imperial architecture of the Empyrean.
2: While racial progression, racial augments, and racial quests and tasks being tied to Node progression is not conjecture...
You keep referring to node contribution as if it's sheer numbers of people that count most towards greatest contribution.
But for all we know - and this pure conjecture - greatest contribution could be the government leaders tearing down Elven buildings in the child nodes and rebuilding them as Dwarven buildings.
Also, for all we know, it's going to take a Dwarven Library in a Dwarven Metropolis to unlock the top tier Dwarven lore.
Again, that kind of stuff is the epitome of player agency work to change the content that is available in the world. It's what makes the world remain dynamic after reaching max level.
I suggest everyone re-watch the Nodes Part 1 video and contemplate what is meant by the development of a Node locking out the content of other Nodes and how that pushes players to fight for the content they want unlocked.
If there are differences(I mean combat or economy affecting difference) based on node race, they will pick the one which is the strongest, and they will force it out, that's guaranteed.
Otherwise they will not going to care in 95% of cases.
I could see it being labeled as playerbase agency, as Intrepid are providing the playerbase as a whole the ability to influence things. Thing is, while they are providing this to the playerbase as a whole, they are not providing it to the individual player so it isn't player agency.
I seriously think you are underestimating what it will take to get a node up to metropolis, and you also seem to be totally ignoring the interplay of the mechanics around it.
I mean, it isn't player agency if the results of my efforts are as determined by some random people three nodes over as they are by my own actions. When you start talking about leveling a node up to metropolis, that is the kind of interplay that is happening.
I'm still waiting to hear how many people you plan to get to level your orc node up to metropolis... Wow, meaningful.
I'm done with you.
You post a load of rubbish, then when people pull you up on it you fail to substantiate your rubbish. Then when people post something with actual quotes behind it you label it as conjecture, and then go on with a whole load of your own conjecture that you attempt to get others to regard as fact.
You are as adverse to facts as Trump.
That is the foundational drive of Ashes.
I don't agree with your perception of individual players not having agency.
Ashes is a themebox. Each player will have things they cannot accomplish because one character will not be able to do everything in the dynamic world.
If players as a whole are unable to alter the racial influence of a the city they're building, as you mistakenly claim, that would exemplify a lack of player agency.
But, we've been told by the devs on many occasions that the Nodes will reflect the race that most contributes to the progress of the Node - both in structural appearance and the race of the NPCs that appear when the Node pops to the next Stage and as more NPCs arrive after the Node pops to the next Stage.
You seem to think that those racial NPCs will be merely cosmetic - same with style of architecture.
We know that the content of the world changes depending on the specific buildings that are built so I dunno why anyone would thing that the only difference in impact on the world between a Dwarven Library being built and an Elven Library being built is cosmetic appearance.
It is you who is underestimating the impact of race on the world in Ashes.
I don't understand your example of the results your actions and the actions of random people three nodes over.
Seems to have nothing to do with anything I've said.
If you're talking about what happens when your Node falls under the influence of the ZOI that expanded from a Node that was once three Nodes distant, well, yeah, you probably want to fight to make sure that doesn't happen if you don't have the same objectives.
Hence, Node v Node combat especially among neighboring Nodes.
What's the quote you want me to address?
I been trying to catch a plane and I am now on a plane reading from a phone.
I haven't addressed everything in that post I was responding to where I end with "more later".
But, yes, we probably have to be done because you mistakenly believe that racial Node progression is just about style of architecture and that because people can choose any starting area, most people will ignore the fact that the portals are racial because race is, what, a superficial trait with so little meaning in the game that most people won't care about racial progression?
There will be servers where most people don't care about that and there will be servers where people care a great deal about that.
But, sure, I'm happy to end this discussion with you and will try to get Steven to clarify these issues for us during my interview with him later this month.
(Facts?? You ain't got no facts!)
Oh. And, don't let me catch you on my server. Or, we'll have to test out that "node vs node" warfare stuff. (sadly, I can't pvp for ish, sooo...)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios
But, this is among the dev statements that indicate people aren't going to be acting like race is a minor factor when it comes to where they enter the game and the racial type of Node they strive to advance to the Metropolis stage. It's not just going to be about the architectural style and the NPCs that appear are not just going to be cosmetic skins.
"We want race to be an identity; not just a skin. We want it to mean something when it comes to the actual gameplay."
Mark 43:22
If the devs want races to be an identity and the cities will reflect the architecture style and be populated with NPCs that match the race with the greatest contribution, that says to me that the devs are providing a great deal of significance to the racial influence of the Node[s] besides mere cosmetics.
It's not going to simply be, "Oh, shoot, the buildings don't have the appearance I prefer, but I don't care as long as it's a Military City."
It just doesn't make sense to me that we're going to get much meaningful Metropolis level Dwarf racial progression and augments from an Elf Metropolis populated by Elf NPCs.
Dwarves are going to want a Dwarf Metropolis to maximize Dwarf racial progression.
And probably Nikua are going to want Nikua cities, specifically, because their interests are significantly different from Dunkir interests.
I'm pretty certain conflicts like that will be driving a significant amount of Node v Node combat.
"Why am I destroying that Metropolis? Because I can't complete my racial progression if I don't."
That's the kind of conflict that will turn completionist PvEers into PvPers.
But, again...
I will try to confirm with Steven tomorrow.
twitch.tv/TheoryForge
Fri May 11 6PM PST