Combat System in Ashes of Creation

ArchivedUser

Hello Ashes Team and the Community, how are you today?

today i watched some Videos in Youtube about Ashes of Creation again, and this Game looks amazing! Good Job for this

The Reason for this topic is, i want to talk about the Combat system, i think this a big point in this game. in the videos i saw the combat in AoC looks kinda slow and with Tab targeting.

i played Blade and soul for years, and there you had a action combat system with a little aiming lock system, i think people who played BnS know what i mean. The combat system was not hard, not slow, it was pretty ok in my opinion. But Quitted BnS because it was boring. but the combat system was pretty good.

today after watching videos in youtube, i saw a video about black desert, and saw a pvp video and the combat system (i never played black desert and i cant say much about it) and i only want to talk about the combat system too.

i dont know its allowed to put a youtube video link here but i want to show you the combat system, it looks even better than in Blade and soul, i saw the combat system and its crazy and awesome, effects, animations nearly everything in combat looks perfect even the characters. (no im not a fanboy of this game, just like i said i never played it)

https://youtu.be/q5VNDee_qGg  

BUT is it possible that Ashes of Creation can also get such a combat system? if yes i think this game will break every mmorpgs for ages!

feel free to comment your opinions and give feedback for devs, lets make this game great!

ArchivedUser

To be perfectly honest, as fun as the combat was in Black Desert, believe me I had a ton of fun with it, it gets problematic when people stack up. Action combat you see, is by far less forgiving on inputs and latency, which kinda limits the scale of PvP. (Sieges in Black Desert were a nightmare). It also tends to get as cheesed as possible.

Right now, AoC are working on a tab-targetting system, with a bunch of skill shots, which might make you feel a bit more actiony.. but it won't have two people in an arena constantly going in circles with immunity dodges because the moment you'd be struck by your enemy's combo your life was basically over.

And PvE with that gets repetitive fast, especially bosses. It looks cool but, it's only worth using two maybe three skills if your class is lucky. 

Not bashing on BDO, great combat, great fun, but maybe limiting from a technical side?

ArchivedUser

okay but the combat system in blade and soul was also good, it was not completly tab targeting but it locked the enemy near you. it was also pretty good, but lets see what the ashes of creation team will make

ArchivedUser

If you watched the LiveStream, you noted that Intrepid stated many times (in prior streams as well) that the combat system has not been implemented yet.... These are base level place holders that you are commenting on. You have to wait until the system itself is released to get an actual depiction.

ArchivedUser

That combat system isn't even good, its too fast and unrealistic and hurts my eyes. I just hope Ashes combat will be on a slower pace and more strategic. At some point in the video I couldn't even see the character's moves and she even disappeared among the mobs. And the mobs animation were so poor that it felt like they were just standing there like a punching bag.

ArchivedUser

Valerian said:

That combat system isn't even good, its too fast and unrealistic and hurts my eyes. I just hope Ashes combat will be on a slower pace and more strategic. At some point in the video I couldn't even see the character's moves and she even disappeared among the mobs. And the mobs animation were so poor that it felt like they were just standing there like a punching bag.

to have a slow combat system in a mmo, is like i dont know wtf back to 1980's, i mean even Tetris gets faster from time to time.

A fast Combat system is good, so people need "skill" to kill his  oponent, instead of tab targeting, staying like a wall and smashing buttons *faceroll* over his keyboard.

I mean people tab target another player, walking away and have no vision to him (enemy is behind him) , but still cast skills on him cause target is locked, this is stupid in my opinion.

i mean it doesnt need to be extreme fast, but as fast as B&S it was good balanced, not to slow, not to fast it was ok

ArchivedUser

@Sylarr
From what i recall, BnS Action-Combat is actually " reactive combat " 
( or " counter-active playstyle " )

That doesn't sound very good imo. It'll be the same type of pacing for every confrontation. Not saying all of BnS is like that ( never played it ) , but thats what i recall hearing. But sure is better than BDO

https://youtu.be/IIKIoOM5gJI?t=1m43s

I think it was mentioned in this video - feel free to watch the whole thing.

• I'd rather Ashes of Creation resemble nothing to BDO, BnS, GW2, FFXIV (etc...).  Instead, I'm hoping Ashes of Creation to do its own thing 
• via 70%  Action Combat & 30% Tab-Target

( Tab-Target loves to follow its Target no matter how much the players tries to move around. The only possible chance to " dodge " an attack is a " defensive passives " via Automated System(s) in the background. On the other hand, some Action-Combat can have an excessive amount of spammable abilities - which is cringe. However, it does allow for more freedom of ability-combinations ... so as long as its not gated by a lmited skill tree/ limited ability-pool/ forced-upon abilities that must be used as opposed to letting the player choose freely/ etc ...    )

Plus, when action-combat is " out-of-control " via covering-up the whole screen (looks a BDO) ... that only makes it worse. Since players can no longer see what they are doing ... just button mashing. hence: BDO resembles senseless Hack-n-slash ...which is fun ( like in HyruleWarriors ) but NOT in an MMO setting

ArchivedUser

Sylarr said:

I mean people tab target another player, walking away and have no vision to him (enemy is behind him) , but still cast skills on him cause target is locked, this is stupid in my opinion.

i mean it doesnt need to be extreme fast, but as fast as B&S it was good balanced, not to slow, not to fast it was ok

Tab targeting and line of sight are not mutually exclusive.

Tab targeting and fast combat are not mutually exclusive.

If the only tab targeting games you have played were outright bad games, then I can see why you may consider these things to go hand in hand.

ArchivedUser

As far i know AoC will have a mix out of Tab Targeting and action combat or did i hear wrong? 

ArchivedUser

Julson said:

As far i know AoC will have a mix out of Tab Targeting and action combat or did i hear wrong? 

You have not heard wrong. The combat system is the current development focus. The system that has been seen so far will not be what is coming for A1P1 in Q4 this year. Everything presented so far were placeholder systems that came with UE4 as many people have pointed out. They have promised great and shiny things for the combat reveal, but beyond a hybrid tab target/action with combos from different characters abilities working off of each other very little is known.

ArchivedUser

Julson said:

As far i know AoC will have a mix out of Tab Targeting and action combat or did i hear wrong? 

If you mean, hybrid Action-Combat & Tab-target .. then yes. But we've only seen Tab-target at this point

ArchivedUser

Speed of combat has very little to do with skill.
Turn-based combat, which is about as slow as combat can be, also has player skill elements - different player skills than action combat.

In fact, action combat can just be face-rolling the keyboard.
In Bless Online, I can defeat most opponents in 6-9 keystrokes - even opponents a couple of levels above me. The combat is pretty quick despite being tab-target. But there isn't much skill involved. I rarely have to consider the attacks of my opponents.
I do have to be strategic when soloing bosses and mini-bosses in dungeons.
I just rotate through 2TT-1TT-2TT-1TT until my opponent is dead.
Most of the time, I'm still thinking, "Oh! Dead already??!!??"

Slower combat is supposed to give the player time to assess the tactics of their opponents and choose abilities to counter those tactics. Rather than just using the same rotation against every opponent.

I prefer free target and AOE reticles after playing NWO.
And I prefer faster combat than EQ and Pantheon and, I think, WoW.
Ashes combat seemed to be at a reasonably fast pace, comparatively.

High Fantasy setting means that we can target in any direction - even behind us. And attack through obstacles, like walls.

ArchivedUser

In bdo combat was great. Only 2 issues:
1.wayyy too big server latency (even when 1 v 1) it coused many problems with skill shots and cc. It resulted in "spam to win", desync(super annoying), teleport back to someones grab ect..
2. Aoe skills could dmg too limited amount of targets. Very very anoing in mass PvP.

(I played(hardcore) BDO for over half a year. Szejm Madmage wizard from guild RL )

ArchivedUser

First of all ''Join the club''. We have been saying this from the start 

And yes black desert has the best combat system of any mmo at the moment out there but this also causes for alot of unbalance.

I think that they should find there own flavour in this I totally agree in more action combat then tab target cause that is too retro and boring now but it does not have to be as complicated as bdo.
Just a few fine skills that look and feel awesome that you can chose and combo with.

I for once hope there skills don't look boring and static.
They wil bring in motion capture and have an awesome combat system.

ArchivedUser

SaintJoanna 

comparing an Upcoming MMORPG with a (failed) MOBA ?
... idk about that ... 

ArchivedUser

Everything we see for now is a place holder unless IS says otherwise, some people like combat from BDO and others prefer tab targeting it all depends on preference. Just wait and see what the devs will decide on in the end.

ArchivedUser

Eragale said:

comparing an Upcoming MMORPG with a (failed) MOBA ?
... idk about that ... 

MOBAs have items and usable abilities, does this mean that MMOs shouldn't have this too?  The idea that mechanics used in one genre can't be used in another is lazy. Games can fail for many reasons and isn't necessarily because every aspect of the game was bad. 
 
The action combat we are getting might be similar in some ways to what we saw in Paragon as both games use UE4 and have third person combat. 

ArchivedUser

@McStackerson
There shouldn't be a correlation to MMORPG/ MMORTS/ MMOFPS/ etc ... to MOBAs. And if you do ... then that's Modern MMOs that fail to capture what a true MMO is ... something which has been forgetten in Modern MMOs. 

• for example ... How many " Modern " MMOs can boast that a Player met their wife/ husband in the " Modern " MMOs 
• MOBAs are lobby-based/ hub-based games - as such the mindset that went into EVERY aspect of that game ( like Paragon ) revolves around the development of that very same Game/ mindset ... and " Modern " MMOs kinda share that concept ... but not the Old ones
• Even a Mobile MMO is more of an MMO compared to MOBAs

MOBAs-to-MOBAs ... as to MMOs-to-MMOs

To be fair, i supposed there MIGHT be a rare-few aspects that can be adopted to MMOs ...  but thats a very touchy subject. And in desperate need of multiple Old-School-Veterans-MMO-Players to examine the further IMHO. 

ArchivedUser

We are talking about mechanics, not the game as a whole. Different genre's of games can have overlap in mechanics. No mechanic is bound to one genre especially in this case where MMOs are not defined by a specific style of combat. Paragon was a moba that used "action" combat and the way they designed abilities could be implemented in a MMO.

ArchivedUser

@McStackerson
Well ... i definitely see what you mean by that

Spoiler

For example
( Duly note, I am NOT a Old-School-Veteran-MMO-Player  ... wish i was though )

• My idea of the Summoner/ Fighter Archetype was something similar to this clip https://youtu.be/ZehOMh9iQk0?t=3m9s . The " clip " ends at 3:11 

• ( VERY SHORT clip ... not the whole video .. literally 2 secs )

• Despite it being hack-n-slash ... if it was heavily-condensed/ heavily slowed-down ... it could fit as either an ability or default-combo 

But its still much to consider.
especially since the Video Game in the link is a Hack-n-slash Console Game.
And MMOs should not be hack-n-slash. However BDO found an interesting balance of Hack-n-slash in an MMO ... only thing is ... BDO is stupid-easy ... with little-to-no challenge in PvE whatsoever

And 1v1 PvP only has tension upon initiation - after the first hit is landed , the "flinching mechanics" kicks-in and then you can unload all your combos with no difficulty.

Group PvP is spamming AoEs that fills-up the whole screen (practically)
So in a way BDO did NOT find the balance ... but its an interesting perspective 
All-in-all, it'll still take a group of Old-School-Veteran-MMO-Players to make a better judgement of what they know 

But its still a tricky subject. So kudos 

ArchivedUser

sry for double post

ArchivedUser

Wow im litterally AMAZED, today i saw this video from ashes, and must say HELL YES  https://youtu.be/gPgmna33pb4 this is absolutely amazing, i think the devs really reading the forums and take feedback from players and the community  i dont know if you already saw this video guys, definetly check it out

there are only 2 things i miss in the video:

1. If you have a sword or staff (a way to block) i mean any way of blocking, the dodge ability is definetly perfect.

2. a smoother action combat, (but im pretty sure the animations from everything, skills, character etc. they will definetly work on it)

otherwise i have nothing else to say to this video, i am so hyped right now LOVE YOU ASHES TEAM REALLY GOOD JOB !

ArchivedUser

This is sorta an old thread, but I'd like to add my input to this. EDIT: My apologies for the wall of text.

I very much agree with Sylarr that I'd hope that AoC has some elements like BnS. I'm currently playing it now, and I very much enjoy the PvP arena scene. I'm super hyped for AoC to come out, and that's the reason I'm here, and the recent videos showing the action style combat has really led to that hype. I know it's a work-in-progress, especially the whole combat system, so I'd like to offer some input coming into what looks like it'll be an amazing game that will be my new main game.

There's only one thing that I'd like to make sure doesn't happen:

• Please don't make it so that you only spam one or two skills and you're animation locked the entire time.

Going based off this old video: https://youtu.be/cMEuS892UlE

I can see that during the dungeon, at times, he's just spamming the Q key in order to use whatever skill that may be. That becomes boring where you just stand still and do things like that.

• I'd love to see animation cancels, or fast attacks that need dodging. Something that leads to a sense of actually working for your attacks or evading mob attacks. An example video would be something like this: https://youtu.be/8bNCFDDgkBo (for the uninitiated, you can see her constantly kicking and that shine going in a circle, it's actually an animation cancel caused by cycling the kick with a normal punch due to an item that allows that, but you can also see her having to use dashes to get out of the way of the AoE's).

• Plus also for tank players, if they actually have to press a button to block an attack, then that feels super rewarding by you actually doing something (See previous video -- even though this boss doesn't have many attacks that are blockable, there's an example at 58 seconds in where she has to press the 1 key for a block/counter skill -- if you can't see it, look for when it says counter after he hits her).

Those are just the 2 things that I'd love to see somehow implemented into AoC. It'd make tanking feel more rewarding for those players, and it'd also make anyone dealing DPS, whether ranged or melee classes, feel like they're more involved in the fight if they have to actively dodge boss attacks, as well as attempt to quickly rotate a set of skills for their DPS rotation rather than just spam 1 skill over and over.

ArchivedUser

kuuric197 said:

This is sorta an old thread, but I'd like to add my input to this. EDIT: My apologies for the wall of text.

I very much agree with Sylarr that I'd hope that AoC has some elements like BnS. I'm currently playing it now, and I very much enjoy the PvP arena scene. I'm super hyped for AoC to come out, and that's the reason I'm here, and the recent videos showing the action style combat has really led to that hype. I know it's a work-in-progress, especially the whole combat system, so I'd like to offer some input coming into what looks like it'll be an amazing game that will be my new main game.

There's only one thing that I'd like to make sure doesn't happen:

• Please don't make it so that you only spam one or two skills and you're animation locked the entire time.

Going based off this old video: https://youtu.be/cMEuS892UlE

I can see that during the dungeon, at times, he's just spamming the Q key in order to use whatever skill that may be. That becomes boring where you just stand still and do things like that.

• I'd love to see animation cancels, or fast attacks that need dodging. Something that leads to a sense of actually working for your attacks or evading mob attacks. An example video would be something like this: https://youtu.be/8bNCFDDgkBo (for the uninitiated, you can see her constantly kicking and that shine going in a circle, it's actually an animation cancel caused by cycling the kick with a normal punch due to an item that allows that, but you can also see her having to use dashes to get out of the way of the AoE's).

• Plus also for tank players, if they actually have to press a button to block an attack, then that feels super rewarding by you actually doing something (See previous video -- even though this boss doesn't have many attacks that are blockable, there's an example at 58 seconds in where she has to press the 1 key for a block/counter skill -- if you can't see it, look for when it says counter after he hits her).

Those are just the 2 things that I'd love to see somehow implemented into AoC. It'd make tanking feel more rewarding for those players, and it'd also make anyone dealing DPS, whether ranged or melee classes, feel like they're more involved in the fight if they have to actively dodge boss attacks, as well as attempt to quickly rotate a set of skills for their DPS rotation rather than just spam 1 skill over and over.

i feel the same, but i think they will implement such things too, i mean if there are no ways to counter or block this would be only faceroll your keyboard.

I think the AoC team have seen Blade and Soul too, the only thing i hope they doesnt implement is this stupid hongmoon block from the KFM, this absolutely ruined the whole pvp.

ArchivedUser

kuuric197 said:

This is sorta an old thread, but I'd like to add my input to this. EDIT: My apologies for the wall of text.

I very much agree with Sylarr that I'd hope that AoC has some elements like BnS. I'm currently playing it now, and I very much enjoy the PvP arena scene. I'm super hyped for AoC to come out, and that's the reason I'm here, and the recent videos showing the action style combat has really led to that hype. I know it's a work-in-progress, especially the whole combat system, so I'd like to offer some input coming into what looks like it'll be an amazing game that will be my new main game.

There's only one thing that I'd like to make sure doesn't happen:

• Please don't make it so that you only spam one or two skills and you're animation locked the entire time.

Going based off this old video: https://youtu.be/cMEuS892UlE

I can see that during the dungeon, at times, he's just spamming the Q key in order to use whatever skill that may be. That becomes boring where you just stand still and do things like that.

• I'd love to see animation cancels, or fast attacks that need dodging. Something that leads to a sense of actually working for your attacks or evading mob attacks. An example video would be something like this: https://youtu.be/8bNCFDDgkBo (for the uninitiated, you can see her constantly kicking and that shine going in a circle, it's actually an animation cancel caused by cycling the kick with a normal punch due to an item that allows that, but you can also see her having to use dashes to get out of the way of the AoE's).

• Plus also for tank players, if they actually have to press a button to block an attack, then that feels super rewarding by you actually doing something (See previous video -- even though this boss doesn't have many attacks that are blockable, there's an example at 58 seconds in where she has to press the 1 key for a block/counter skill -- if you can't see it, look for when it says counter after he hits her).

Those are just the 2 things that I'd love to see somehow implemented into AoC. It'd make tanking feel more rewarding for those players, and it'd also make anyone dealing DPS, whether ranged or melee classes, feel like they're more involved in the fight if they have to actively dodge boss attacks, as well as attempt to quickly rotate a set of skills for their DPS rotation rather than just spam 1 skill over and over.

In general, I agree with you, with one exception. I don't want to see a system where animation cancels are a big thing. I don't really want to be locked down by animations, especially while using action combat, but most of the games that I've played that had animation cancels beyond a limited dodge ended up with a complicated system of mastering skills not based on how the skills best fit the situation, but rather on how to cancel as many animations as possible. It makes it feel much less tactical and more twitchy, in my opinion, which I'm not a fan of.

ArchivedUser

Animation cancels are normally a cheat to bypass cool downs to increase DPS beyond remit.Animations aren't necessary, aborted skills are....where any aborted effect is forfeit.Agree we need an extensive interrupt based combat system with variable skill based consequence.

Nobody likes being locked out of control over their character, not withstanding the CC options that are designed to do that. But even this should give players a CC counter. Graded CC and counters rather than on/off switches would also allow much less frustrating gameplay.

You can have any number of dual combo presses with direction key + mouse buttons, each of which can substantially increase combat options. Allowing manual rather than macroed combat.

ArchivedUser

Black Desert combat is hideous from a visual standpoint. You see the target and cover it in particles and the next time you see the target its dead on the floor. No skill, just button mashes because you can't track what's going on behind all of their smoke and mirrors. I enjoy action combat but only when i can see said combat.

ArchivedUser

From what I see in BR testing the combat needs a second look- and fast. Stam drain for not moving forward and hitting roll dodge or any direction- it doesn't roll if you are not moving in that direction anyway so you lose stam and get nothing. Directional dodge rolls are necessary in a game with PvP as well as an active block.... Probably need to look at directional double taps to do dodge rolls I think. Who wants to dodge in only one direction INTO the damage you see coming unless you coordinate the movement directions with another key? The shield and sword requirement and use to have a block is not a good design in my opinion. I think those two things are really bothersome to me already and that lack of an active block for incoming damage will almost certainly ensure that you only see Rangers and Mages rolled. Not sure why you would define loading up sword and shield and taking a stance as block- it isnt, its having 'set' you MUST use and stance you then must take to mitigate damage rather than the players response to active combat. Seems with the BR tests the combat is done in molasses and if it feels as if about 50% of the control of the char is just being throttled out of your hands.

ArchivedUser

Cainor said:

From what I see in BR testing the combat needs a second look- and fast. 

What do you mean with second look? @Cainor
The BR is (as you said) testing. They are looking  constantly at it and try to fix bugs and improve everything with the data they get.

About shields:
A shields purpose is to block. Why is it in your opinion bad design if shields block in AoC?

ArchivedUser

What I mean @Augentier is that if BR is preview of what the intended mechanics of combat are, before they get any deeper into it I think they need a HARD look at the mechanics. Not the data, but the FEEDBACK from those playing it. Does that make more sense to you? Multiple keystrokes to perform basic functions is clunky and not a good experience for things like dodge rolls or blocks specifically. When the action taken to mitigate damage is twice the keystrokes of the action to DO the damage, as a player I experience what feels like throttling of my play to respond to what I see.

ArchivedUser

I actually agree with @Cainor about the combat so far. It feels like it is based more on RNG and luck and less on player skill than I would like to see. Player skill is very important, and a person's reaction time should count as something in combat. I am concerned that in the effort to prevent macros from being used, the skill of a real-life player has also been hampered accordingly. I could use a bit of reassurance from the developers that this is NOT what they have planned for the future of combat in AOC. 

For example: The time it takes to hit an offensive skill and see the result is rather quick. However, the reaction time of the one getting hit is much slower due to the fact that they must hit a couple of different keys to the attacker's key strokes. Every transcriber can tell you that it takes much longer the more key strokes your fingers must go through to get the end result. The defender is already at the disadvantage. Why cause them to have even more of a disadvantage defending?

There are a few things about the combat that in my opinion need to be streamlined otherwise us piano players and transcribers are going to own everyone else out there with our ranged, shoot from a bush from a mile away gank tactics and extremely quick finger skills.