The Problem with "Darkness" and other Blinds

In the interim until AoC hits Alpha, I've been consuming a decent amount of LoL content, and a YouTuber named FoxDrop (sorry I could not find the video I will be referencing) had an thoughtful little rant. He was complaining about the Champion Graves' blinding skill (https://imgur.com/H6Lma0k), which I immediately remembered, because it was similar to how "Darkness" was described at the start of the most recent livestream (June 4th, 2018). FoxDrop was basically arguing that he did not enjoy the mechanic, because it was very powerful, since it is a complete disorientation, and it is unfun to be caught in it. I do agree, that it is a strong cc, and it really sucks to be cc'ed, but it also sucks to get stunned, right? While I do think that it is an interesting cc mechanic, if you read the title of this post, I'm sure you're expecting me to start crying and bashing on it any moment now. Well, the wait is over. FoxDrop goes on to make a point that really resonated with me. Blind is the only cc that makes you look bad in front of your allies. Let me follow up with some of FoxDrop's points, to the best of my memory. When you are blinded, and don't know where you are in relation to the rest of your team, it is very easy to then mis-position and cost your team a fight, or at the very least, your life. In the heat of the moment, allies not affected by the blind, might not realize you are blinded, and although you may be running the wrong way, they seek to aid you, and die for it as well. Blind effects put the blame on the blinded. You still have control of your character, and you were the one to walk the wrong way, unlike with a fear, where you can't choose the direction you flee in. In a game like AoC which is supposedly going to have positioning be very important, with Tank classes even being able to alter battlefields, a blinding effect can be devastatingly punishing.

Now I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, I think blind can be a really healthy mechanic if it can be implemented in a way that will not lead to toxicity, like Graves' Smokescreen sometimes does in my ranked games. In LoL ,Graves skill Smokescreen can be immediately broken by moving out of the aoe zone, but if "Darkness" is a debuff that is placed on someone(s) for any significant amount of time, it could be very powerful, and unfun for the recipient and their allies. In addition, the smokescreen effect still allows those inflicted to see the very immediate surroundings, and closed in from the outside, to try and lessen the devastating impact. LoL has a similar effect in the Champion Nocturne's Ultimate (default R) Ability, which causes "nearsightedness" for all enemies. I find this to be less offensive, as everyone is blinded, and so no one ally can blame someone else, because they can see them running the wrong way. In addition, you can see very close allies, and there is time to bunch up and still walk together as a team, regardless of which way y'all choose to walk, since you are all blinded, you can't really blame one person.

I have not seen the effect yet, but the real intent of this post is to get some nice community discussion on the topic, and debate pros and cons of the Blind effect, as well as brainstorm ideas on how to correctly implement such an effect in the healthiest way. I do think a true blinding effect would be cool, but if i could propose some of my ideas, I would hate to see this be a single target ability that induces a timed blind debuff on an enemy. Alternatively, if it was a casted aoe zone, with obvious and pronounced effects to denote both where the zone is, as well as who is affected, that would be also extremely powerful, but less conducive to toxicity. That being said, I'm sure the more creative members of this community could come up with cool solutions I would have never thought about, and I do encourage discussion, so join me in trying to make AoC the best that it can be.

P.S. I usually don't post anything anywhere unless I find something I feel strongly about, or have a strong opinion on. Don't be dissuaded if you have a contrastive thought, as those with different backgrounds and ideas are the most interesting to me. Sorry for the wall of text, and unedited nature of this post, please don't ding my reputation or arguments too hard for it. I would be happy to receive any tips for formatting in the future as well.

Comments

  • You have not even seen the skill yet so how are you meant to know what it the pros and cons are. theory crafting is great but you need some facts to base a theory on and not the theory to replace facts.
  • Well in D&D Daylight can cancel out Darkness.  So there you go.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    T-Elf said:
    Well in D&D Daylight can cancel out Darkness.  So there you go.
    I think anything with darkvision can also see ^^
  • nagash said:
    You have not even seen the skill yet so how are you meant to know what it the pros and cons are. theory crafting is great but you need some facts to base a theory on and not the theory to replace facts.
    I just want some community input on similar mechanics. I wanted discussion, not shooting the topic down, simply because the skills aren't out yet. I understand we have very little to work with, that allows for more creativity in ideas.nagash said:
    T-Elf said:
    Well in D&D Daylight can cancel out Darkness.  So there you go.
    I think anything with darkvision can also see ^^
    Do we have darkvision confirmed? And how did the daylight skill work in D&D? Any ideas how the AoC team could implement it?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    In D&D Darkness is magical and therefore Darkvision will not work.  Daylight is a spell that will cancel Darkness and also it can be used to light up a dark space.  Daylight is also good to use on fiends, undead, and other evil types to drive them away.
  • Blind should be not be a total black out, a level headed player should be able to somewhat compensate for the disorientation.

    Less This:
    And more this:

    Hell even this:


    Anything is better than a black screen.  It's just not fun and you can get the same effect with other methods.

    Hopefully the Devs read this lol
  • I think it should be an AoE. You target an area with a cloud of darkness and in there you can not see anything unless you have a light source. The cloud would be 2 meters in width and the closers you get to the outside edge of the spell the less the darkness effects you. That way it is a powerful spell that forces people to move or to stay still and not see yet it's also weak as it can be negated by just moving some where else.

    This would be handy if you had enemy rangers or mages in the back line supporting or doing damage and you want them to move out of range or get closer. This is how I see the spell.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    @Zanger

    The " Blind idea " is partially in how i envison the Bard. I think of the Bard who specializes in " Manipulation Magic " + Hyms, Musical Instruments - something mention in a few other Threads

    ... with this in mind please feel free to try your best and imagine this Fan-Story i made a while ago ... you " might " enjoy it :3
  • @Digital_Wind that image from mario tennis seems a little to cartoony to me but i wouldn't mind something similar. To the OP, if you play LoL then you should have an understanding of Nocturne's ultimate ability. I imagine a blind to be of that level --> a vision cut of approx. 5-10 seconds but the player can still see their immediate surroundings within a radius so they are not completely oblivious to an attack. I think i can agree with u that Grave's smoke screen is a load of bullshit and ought to be changed though
  • Dwarf>Bard>Rogue>Trickster God>Cook = I squirt Lemons in you eye.
  • Im happy about the skill it matches my shadow mage theme lol. 

    Im sure ill be able to 1 up some people with the blind ability and others will have a hard counter for me, just the nature of the beast. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    I fight with my eyes closed as do 85% of the Professional gamers - I am against this on the ground that it make it harder for the scrubs to compete as they waste their time on a pointless ability.

    Joking of course....

    How about a Bard/Rogue giving a "lag debuff"?
  • Zanger said:
     When you are blinded, and don't know where you are in relation to the rest of your team, it is very easy to then mis-position and cost your team a fight, or at the very least, your life. In the heat of the moment, allies not affected by the blind, might not realize you are blinded, and although you may be running the wrong way, they seek to aid you, and die for it as well. Blind effects put the blame on the blinded. You still have control of your character, and you were the one to walk the wrong way, unlike with a fear, where you can't choose the direction you flee in. In a game like AoC which is supposedly going to have positioning be very important, with Tank classes even being able to alter battlefields, a blinding effect can be devastatingly punishing.
    These two points are why I think blindness is more of a pro than a con.

    Positioning is very important in AoC and as you say classes such as Tank are about "controlling the battlefield". 

    Now a way to counter someone "controlling the battlefield" is to have class skills that make controlling the battlefield more challenging a.k.a splitting the team up - by using blind, root, fear... common CC abilities.

    As a player (or a good group- keeping in mind Ashes aim to encourage players to play together) - what will distinguish your skill in comparison to others- is being able to communicate to resolve these problems.

    If you are blinded and running the wrong way you really should be communicating to your team. If you have a good team:

    1. They will quickly remove the CC if they can
    2. They will move as a whole group with you to avoid you being separated
    3. They will use an ability on you to bring you back to the group
    and so on...

    A good team will NOT put the blame on the blinded

    If we are talking about the scale of blindness I think God of War does it well. The fight with Dark Evles has it so darkness is in front of your character (which makes sense if your playing in 3rd person). You can still see your character, and you can somewhat see the direction if incoming attacks. It blacks out most of the screen like a shadow. I felt it was limiting but not to the point where it became unfun. To me it made the experience enjoyable and challenging.

  • Blinded in Everquest was challenging. If you're in a group, you say your blind. Stop movement by single tapping backspace. Wait for someone Cast cure blindness on you. If by yourself you wait usually it's not lasting long enough to cause your death but long enough to think about continuing the fight. 
  • jtravlz said:
    Blinded in Everquest was challenging. If you're in a group, you say your blind. Stop movement by single tapping backspace. Wait for someone Cast cure blindness on you. If by yourself you wait usually it's not lasting long enough to cause your death but long enough to think about continuing the fight. 
    im hoping cure blindness isnt required. blind should only last 4-6 seconds and skilled players should know its uses and work arounds
  • In Wildstar, Blind did this to your screen: 

    Related image

    You essentially could only see a thin mid section of the screen and everything else was "blacked out". It usually only lasted a second or two. No idea how Intrepid are going to do it, but it doesn't have to completely black out our screens to be a "blind" effect.
  • Reading the thread all I could think of was Wildstar's system. I liked it and think is was a good middle ground and the fact it moved around making it challenging. Good players and teams don't blame players for CC stuff. Realize RNG happens and count for it.
    Have to remember 2 things in a raid
    1 S*@t happens
    2 S*@t happens

    Lot of my most memorable experiences in these games come from the scramble wins because a key player got CC'd and caused chaos.
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