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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
PvP game balance
Now this particular post is about nerfs and how a class should be unique and how it is affected by pvp game balance.
Now the game that am talking about is WoW and how they became the fun police by nerfing everything and they destroyed the fun and lively hood of their own classes because of game balance.
The point I am trying to make is kind of vague so here goes.
In testing with Ashes of Creation Rangers are OP cause of their mobility. Having a significant advantage so I guess that needs to be addressed. So lets say the class gets adjusted or nerfed by making less mobile.
1 (point one)Well first of all there will be a Ranger that will be not having so much fun cause class is not as OP as it used to be plus it is a litte more difficult takes more skill to win but it was all for fairness and fun for the other players but the Ranger well is having less fun cause class just got nerfed.....
But the Ranger well has a slow so he just uses his slow more often and still just as OP as he was before just little more difficult but Ashes of creation notices this and ends up nerfing the cooldown on that slow. Which leads us back to point one
But the Ranger then realizes that he can get a speed buff from some magic item and speed buff plus nerfed slow makes him just as OP as he was before. but Ashes of Creation Realizes this and nerfs it. Which leads us back to point one.
After a certain amount of times well Ashes of Creation will become the fun police through pvp game balance. This is one way to lose hundred of thousands of subs. (by the way WoW pvp cummunity is dying). It does not matter if you are right for doing or not you will become the fun police.
Best thing to do is do extensive pvp testing in arenas and world pvp. Do all the nerfing before games goes live and do even more testing when it comes out. try to do all the game balance changes in one quarter. And in after one qaurter only do much needed nerfs. But if you get really picky and make this ranger ability like that mage ability tand this self heal like that self heal and come out with never ending nerfs then you will literally destroy your pvp player base.
Granted there are just some things that cannot be anticipated. We all do the best we can.
So finally ranger mobility is were is should be Great. Right? But now as compared to other classed well there really no point in playing ranger than lets say a mage which is in fact what you are shooting for equality. But this statement is no longer true Wow I should play a hunter they are really mobile. Or wow I should play I should play mage cause they do more damage cause if they did more damage then Ashes of Creation would be there to nerf it.
So basically you have to make all the melee classes the same and all the range dps classes the same if you want to attain game balance. So basically you have melee dps and range dps and those are your two classes for the entire game they just have different animations (arrow instead of a fireball in ranger vs mage. (This is an exaggeration but holds a lot of truth).
Point is there only so much nerfing you can do before you destroy a class and make lets say in my example. A Ranger would be nothing more than a mage that looks different.
Should not each class have their own unique abilities that sets them apart from each other right? As a dev team you should come up with creative ways to do class balance other than just hitting it with a nerf bat.
The reason I mentioned this is because as the term goes Ashes of Creation has a lot of player agent and as far as i know every piece of gear will be allowed in rated pvp plus 8 class that can be augmented in 8 ways. PvP game balance will be a nightmare the more choices palyers have the tougher it will be to balance. So you will have classes that will be more suited for pvp. They will be the ones that win more real wasy to figure out.
One option to solve this problem is have it fairly easy to have a pvp toon just for pvp like an alt. Multi-classing is lots of fun anyways. I think it would be great if people could play 3 or 4 different classes which is totally possible in Ashes of Creation cause number of abilities not to high. Plus it is fun to play different roles like mage/tank/bard. So the game should be alt freindly. But if it is to grindy to have let say just 2 classes well......player is basically stuck with first class.
Another option is to make pvp rewards per class (8) not subclasses Already mentioned in another post.
I guess in testing Ranger mobility is OP. Well mobility is OP in most PVP games and as far as dps goes well ranged class have the upper hand also true in most PvP games. It is plain game mechanics. If I play a warrior and spend half my time chasing a target then dps is minus 50 percent there is really no solution for that. At high rating pro level melee not to so good. And if there is a tank that is kind of not to mobile guess not to good for pvp either. Nothing to do with dps or this ability is like that ability. They will just get kited. Some classes are just more suited for pvp than others better just to make it alt freindly so people can play one of classes.
I played WoW 3 classes hunter mage pally and had a warrior but not to serious, they went down that dark road of making all the classes the same until they literally gutted and destroyed some of those classes. I mean I had a mage which was suited for pvp which i really liked and after all the nerfs it was still suited for pvp but was so boring compared to what it used to be I stopped playing it.
Now the game that am talking about is WoW and how they became the fun police by nerfing everything and they destroyed the fun and lively hood of their own classes because of game balance.
The point I am trying to make is kind of vague so here goes.
In testing with Ashes of Creation Rangers are OP cause of their mobility. Having a significant advantage so I guess that needs to be addressed. So lets say the class gets adjusted or nerfed by making less mobile.
1 (point one)Well first of all there will be a Ranger that will be not having so much fun cause class is not as OP as it used to be plus it is a litte more difficult takes more skill to win but it was all for fairness and fun for the other players but the Ranger well is having less fun cause class just got nerfed.....
But the Ranger well has a slow so he just uses his slow more often and still just as OP as he was before just little more difficult but Ashes of creation notices this and ends up nerfing the cooldown on that slow. Which leads us back to point one
But the Ranger then realizes that he can get a speed buff from some magic item and speed buff plus nerfed slow makes him just as OP as he was before. but Ashes of Creation Realizes this and nerfs it. Which leads us back to point one.
After a certain amount of times well Ashes of Creation will become the fun police through pvp game balance. This is one way to lose hundred of thousands of subs. (by the way WoW pvp cummunity is dying). It does not matter if you are right for doing or not you will become the fun police.
Best thing to do is do extensive pvp testing in arenas and world pvp. Do all the nerfing before games goes live and do even more testing when it comes out. try to do all the game balance changes in one quarter. And in after one qaurter only do much needed nerfs. But if you get really picky and make this ranger ability like that mage ability tand this self heal like that self heal and come out with never ending nerfs then you will literally destroy your pvp player base.
Granted there are just some things that cannot be anticipated. We all do the best we can.
So finally ranger mobility is were is should be Great. Right? But now as compared to other classed well there really no point in playing ranger than lets say a mage which is in fact what you are shooting for equality. But this statement is no longer true Wow I should play a hunter they are really mobile. Or wow I should play I should play mage cause they do more damage cause if they did more damage then Ashes of Creation would be there to nerf it.
So basically you have to make all the melee classes the same and all the range dps classes the same if you want to attain game balance. So basically you have melee dps and range dps and those are your two classes for the entire game they just have different animations (arrow instead of a fireball in ranger vs mage. (This is an exaggeration but holds a lot of truth).
Point is there only so much nerfing you can do before you destroy a class and make lets say in my example. A Ranger would be nothing more than a mage that looks different.
Should not each class have their own unique abilities that sets them apart from each other right? As a dev team you should come up with creative ways to do class balance other than just hitting it with a nerf bat.
The reason I mentioned this is because as the term goes Ashes of Creation has a lot of player agent and as far as i know every piece of gear will be allowed in rated pvp plus 8 class that can be augmented in 8 ways. PvP game balance will be a nightmare the more choices palyers have the tougher it will be to balance. So you will have classes that will be more suited for pvp. They will be the ones that win more real wasy to figure out.
One option to solve this problem is have it fairly easy to have a pvp toon just for pvp like an alt. Multi-classing is lots of fun anyways. I think it would be great if people could play 3 or 4 different classes which is totally possible in Ashes of Creation cause number of abilities not to high. Plus it is fun to play different roles like mage/tank/bard. So the game should be alt freindly. But if it is to grindy to have let say just 2 classes well......player is basically stuck with first class.
Another option is to make pvp rewards per class (8) not subclasses Already mentioned in another post.
I guess in testing Ranger mobility is OP. Well mobility is OP in most PVP games and as far as dps goes well ranged class have the upper hand also true in most PvP games. It is plain game mechanics. If I play a warrior and spend half my time chasing a target then dps is minus 50 percent there is really no solution for that. At high rating pro level melee not to so good. And if there is a tank that is kind of not to mobile guess not to good for pvp either. Nothing to do with dps or this ability is like that ability. They will just get kited. Some classes are just more suited for pvp than others better just to make it alt freindly so people can play one of classes.
I played WoW 3 classes hunter mage pally and had a warrior but not to serious, they went down that dark road of making all the classes the same until they literally gutted and destroyed some of those classes. I mean I had a mage which was suited for pvp which i really liked and after all the nerfs it was still suited for pvp but was so boring compared to what it used to be I stopped playing it.
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Comments
That is why this game has developers from a lot of western MMO's, but none from WoW (or none that are publicly admitting as much).
btw. I like countering system like: tank counter mage, mage counter ranger, bla bla bla someone counter tank ect.
I know how you feel and know what you're talking about because I have seen similar things like this happen before - and I'm sure others have too
1) My first approach of conveying the idea of Ranger being more mobile is extending this ability shown in PAX West
- https://youtu.be/InlLlJa4PAw?t=2m8s (stop at 2:12)
Now imagine if the Ranger's ability was extended to something like " ricocheting " off an object? ( as displayed in the link below ) . But the direction of the Ricochet could be up to the Player ( via a slight-left ricochet OR a slight-right ricochet OR straight ) ... or decided on an in-game-physics- similar to this https://youtu.be/k70IWHiXl18?t=1m57s ( stop at 2:14 ) ... only ... not thrown back
- but rather an extension of the ability if there's contact on another
object ( via a tree-bark, Boulder, Castle Wall, Building, etcc ... ) In short, it'll the make the environment something to consider when in combat (and not being spammable)
- I've thought about showing a " naruto-anime clip " ... but i can't seem to remember any noteworthy clips that'll represent the idea any better tbh
( i don't want Ashes of Creation to be inspired off of Anime but, i can't deny that there are some neat/ decent ideas from some of them in regards to action-combat )2) Soo ...Intrepid does plan on the Ranger having some sort of Close-Combat-Prowess. So my guess is that all Close-range Combat *for the Ranger* abilities will be brief - i'd imagine like a 2-hit or 3-hit close-range-combo and the only 2 videos i can think of for a decent representation of this are
- https://youtu.be/SsWI6X5NZWs?t=18s ( feel free to stop watching at 0:31 ... or keep going )
- https://youtu.be/IF1yGLu8Ay0?t=2m47s ( watch until the end - pay attention to the Dash attack )This next one ... I'm extremely fortunate that i found a "Near-Perfect-Clip" ... because i was worried that i may not find it tbh
The importance of the Old SevenSwords MMO is that ... Its (apparently) kinda relevant to to what Ashes of Creation is ...- https://youtu.be/ZnoHtzaQeMs?t=40m14s ( you can stop watching at 44:20 )
What Steven said about the ... " Rock, Paper Scissors Column-Style " Combat ... i immediately think of this imageNow ... I know that the biggest difference is that an MMORPG for PC will naturally have more Resources & Options for Balancing Combat - so i'm confident that combat will not imitate a Mobile MMORPG ... especially with the Large MMO-Experience that Intrepid Devs is boasting about. Its already hinted that the " Rock. Paper, Scissors Style " Combat will be expanded upon .. when Steven mentions the word " Columns " in the above video-link
Its really important that its re-watched at 40:14 and NOT 40:41 - big difference
Lets take the ranger again well if you take the same ranger and put him in an arena which could be a small area not like a battleground per say then his mobility will be hampered or nerfed cause he will run into a wall real quick while kiting. But in a Battle grounds mobility is a huge advantage. So melee dps unless on defense are also at a huge disadvantage.
But lets stick to the ranger so you put a ranger in an arena (3v3) yes he is more mobile but no where to run depending on how big or small the arena is (so map balance is also an issue small maps favor melee dps huge maps range dps) but rangers dps got nerfed a little bit (from what I hear) So now we have a ranged dps with nerfed dps because of high mobility being op but in arenas mobility is not so OP so there is no reason to play ranger in arenas from a multiclasseer point of view. might as well just play some other range dps in arenas that does more damage and win more. So you have to ceate a reason for a ranger to be picked maybe bring some buff to the table just as an example.
Now there is no avoiding this when the games come out there will be three classes that will rise to the top as the preferered pvp classes. Heals are pretty important so most like by cleric x x and more likely than not the other two classes will be different and not say cleric mage mage but could be.
Now to the pvp community it will be no secret and to the non pvp community it will also be no secret they will notice that the teams with cleric x x just win more and that poeple are always looking to play cleric x x. All you have to do is monitor which comps win the most.
Since it was said that it would be fairly easy to change subclass then only eight classes should be balanced if you go for all 64 you as a dev might be overwhelmed.
so you have 8 classes three of them are the best suited for pvp shich leaves five.
The best thing to do is buff the bottom two classes to be more effective in pvp. And then figure out how much better are the top three class for 3v3 (Steve said game was going to be balanced for 3v3). Are the number 4 and the number 5 and the number 6 classes that far behind that they actuallly need a buff or revamp.
But well the balance for 3v3 may not be suited for battlegrounds.
Here are some options
Have Templates for 3v3 2v2 and 1v1 and batltegrounds. for example it might be that some abilities or items might be to powerful for 1v1 so a certain class will alway win.
As far as arenas and some of the battlegrounds you could look at them as a MOBA so that part of the game would have different rules than lets say a raid.
The maps should take in consideration game balance. If you are just going to make a box and put four pillars in it and in another one three pillars those types of mabes have a tendacy to favor ranged dps.
But if you get creative and make good maps that take in consideration melee dps vs ranged dps then the game will be more balanced. No reason to pick melee dps if all the arenas maps are huge with four pillars in it.
There is a huge pvp community people that mainly play human vs human games that know most of the in and outs of pvp. And if the game is not balanced correctly or if you go down that road of make your spread sheets look really good (players have spread sheets too you know) they will just go play aonther game.
The only reason I am posting is because I know for a fact that the WoW devs could build a space ship to get us to planet Mars and back in less than a month but could not balance pvp even if their lives depended on it. Those guys could actually have the classes somewhat close to balance and all the sudden bunch of changes come out because well this ability is five percent better than a similar ability that a mage has not taking in consideration that the class being nerfed is not per say the best pvp class.
If you look at literally any one aspect of WoW with a critical eye, it fails. The game has done nothing right at all, yet has a multitude of mindless lemmings playing it thinking it is good.
You may notice that the developers at Intrepid proudly state their work experience on the website. I challenge you to find a single developer that states they worked on WoW.
You won't find one...
This studio hires people with worthwhile experience.
Rather than, " Buffing/ Nerfing " Archetypes, why not make New Abilities that could substitute for the lack-of-{insert here} ? And i don't think 3 Archetypes Combination will be the Best
- ( you referring to Top DPS, Top Heals and Top Tank right ? )
I think that a few Archetype-Blends will be considered an " anti " against other (few) Archetype-Blends - but not to the point to where its unfair, but noticeable-enough to where it could be in the other's favorIf every class is given the things that it is lacking, all classes will be the same.
The only metric to determine if a given class is balanced in small scale PvP combat is if the number of classes that regularly beat the class in question is roughly the same as the number of classes the class in question regularly beats.
If this holds true, the class is balanced well enough.
tldr - It's up to the player and his extensive knowledge of the class to decide how to counter x situations based on the class's strengths and weaknesses; not the dev.
As long as they keep the rock-paper-scissors and group vision it should be fine. Its when games start catering to the players that complain the x class isn't good against y class and they continue to nerf/buff classes constantly as the 1 vs 1 meta keeps shifting due to the balances they keep doing that we get the rotating mess of PvP that the mentality often perpetuates.
Now balancing should come in when their "rock" classes aren't actually beating their "scissor" classes or one class is becoming good vs every class things need to become looked at.
Or if one class through testing or tweaking has nothing to offer a group engagement and is never being taken by groups because their kit is too underwhelming. Or the opposite one class is given priority over any other class because its kit is too good that it is seen as "necessary" in every engagement.
But any buff or nerf needs to be carefully looked at and reasons should be to open the game for more viable options, not due to 1 vs 1 scenarios.
I mean no matter what they do they will always be the best one or best comp. But can you say that your class is viable or have a valid reason to play your class.
I played hunter and mage in wow and there is no reason to play hunter when I could just play mage on a competitive level. It just cause of game mechanics. Unless you are a rogue in wow no point in playing melee.
Ashes doesn't even have developers that worked on WoW.
WoW was designed by amateur developers.
Ashes has a team of professionals.
I'm sure you've seen the difference between what a professional can do vs what an amateur can do in various situations in your life - designing and developing a game is no different.
I'm a strong believer in balance, and that skill should determine the outcome of a battle rather than class. I'm also a big fan of classes having unique play styles. I'm sure that IS is competent enough to balance classes while maintaining different play styles.
In the case of an OP Ranger several options for balance corrections are available without touching mobility or range: reduce damage of skills performed while mobile, while leaving the damage of skills performed while standing still; reduce effectiveness against heavily armoured (i.e. melee) targets; increase vulnerability to 'root'.
I'd have to actually play the game and the various classes to see how these 'nerds' would play out, but it seems obvious to me that there are multiple ways to correct imbalances without homogenizing the game.
Actually what happened to WoW is this.....They tried to make all the abilities of all the classes similar. So they had there spread sheets and started leveling out classes numerically and number of abilities not taking into account things like actually class performance. I would do arenas pretty much know whcih healers were the toughest to kill and which one the easies. Really a no brainer cause when that particular class lets just say resto druid is on the opposing team it just a lot more difficult to kill than lets say a monk real obvious to any one that does arenas all the time. No intelligence involved.
But the PvP department made changes based on spreadsheats so next thing I know best class gets buffed and worst class or second to worst class gets nerfed. I did not even play healers but really easy to know which ones were the toughest and wich ones were just ok and not so good.
So as far as PvP goes that game is terrible but just to be fair In other areas they get A pluses so they are not amateurs. WoW is a great game, It did not get old there is no game out there that beats WoW. WoW literally killed itelf by catering to casuals or chasing subsriptions.
Here are three examples of huge blunders.
Instant que This made so you really did have to know any one to play the pve side of the game. So no reason to be polite so people will play with you agains so a lot of servers went toxic.
In order to appeal ot people that are not used to having so many abilities which was needed for some classes they did something called the prune but they over did by alot they over simplified classes and classes became boring. Plus the skill cap was very low for some classes.
They insisted on putting he proverbial carrot in front of the players to make people stay online more. Thinking they were really good at it but players caught on that there are to many hooks in the game and drove them away. So they put the proverbial carrot in front of the player instead of making it fun because they are chasing their own carrot which is subsriptions and lost tons of players in the process kind of ironic actually.
plus many more.