Why the obsession in linear leveling systems?

ArchivedUser

I'll say this many more times before I die, but my favorite MMO of alll-time was Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU...  One of my favorite aspects of the game was the leveling system and how it was not linear (start at 1 and go up from there, also not even sure if linear is the right word) but rather point based with professions to where you could completely customize your build.  For instance, you could rock out being a Teras Kasi Master (essentially a badass boxer) while also being a Master Rifleman by leveling up those professions.  Or if you wanted to, you could literally dip into every profession and have a little bit of medic skills, a little bit of resource harvesting skills and a little bit of combat skills.  You could also re-roll your professions at the drop of a hat if you wanted to try something new, and you wouldn't be stuck in your with the class you first chose (most games you choose your class at character creation, and then that's your class forever going forward).  Check this link for a little bit of an idea on SWG profession system http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Professions_(pre-NGE)

So back to my original question - why do y'all think the numbered leveling system has dominated games for so long?  Is it maybe just because it is most common and familiar to gamers and easier to sell?  Just out here trying to open Pandora's box

ArchivedUser

You have to copy and paste that link and not just click it directly or else it will take you to the lame arse NGE profession system.

ArchivedUser

There are a number of reasons.

The first and most obvious one (and only one I'm going in to in this post) is that it becomes very easy for players to build a character that simply doesn't function well - or even at all. This pisses a lot of players off, and many simply leave the game rather than trying to find out how to fix it.

Because of this, developers *need* to allow for fairly easy respec'ing system. This leaves players in a position where their character choices are essentially empty choices, as any and all of them can be made again.

When player choices carry no weight, the whole game itself carries a different feel to it.

Now, I'm not saying that games *can't* have non-liner leveling, as the game I am spending the most time playing right now (Path of Exile) has a non-liner leveling system.

What I am saying is that it is a choice. The developer of the game has to make a choice between many different systems, each of them come with consequences. Some systems require other things to go with them, and some systems exclude other things.

Steven and Intrepid have been fairly open about wanting player choice in Ashes to carry some real weight. As such, a pre-NGE SWG-style leveling system simply wouldn't work, as one of the things that system requires (as stated above as well as in the OP) is an easy path for respec'ing. This easy path removes the weight of any character choices, going directly against the stated goals of the developers of *this* game.

I wish there were more actual MMORPG's with a more skill based leveling system (PoE is an online ARPG, not an MMORPG). However, even though I wish that, I fully understand why *this* game isn't that game.

And I'm OK with that.

ArchivedUser

Noaani said:

There are a number of reasons.

The first and most obvious one (and only one I'm going in to in this post) is that it becomes very easy for players to build a character that simply doesn't function well - or even at all. This pisses a lot of players off, and many simply leave the game rather than trying to find out how to fix it.

Because of this, developers *need* to allow for fairly easy respec'ing system. This leaves players in a position where their character choices are essentially empty choices, as any and all of them can be made again.

When player choices carry no weight, the whole game itself carries a different feel to it.

Now, I'm not saying that games *can't* have non-liner leveling, as the game I am spending the most time playing right now (Path of Exile) has a non-liner leveling system.

What I am saying is that it is a choice. The developer of the game has to make a choice between many different systems, each of them come with consequences. Some systems require other things to go with them, and some systems exclude other things.

Steven and Intrepid have been fairly open about wanting player choice in Ashes to carry some real weight. As such, a pre-NGE SWG-style leveling system simply wouldn't work, as one of the things that system requires (as stated above as well as in the OP) is an easy path for respec'ing. This easy path removes the weight of any character choices, going directly against the stated goals of the developers of *this* game.

I wish there were more actual MMORPG's with a more skill based leveling system (PoE is an online ARPG, not an MMORPG). However, even though I wish that, I fully understand why *this* game isn't that game.

And I'm OK with that.

Well damnit I was hoping no one would make any sense so I could get some "Hoorah! Hoorah!" call to action type snuf going, but you basically nailed it. 

I will say though, the augmentation of skills in AoC with secondary classes does sound promising if they can pull it off..  I'm just tired of the same old skill sets for classes that are just so predictable from game to game, and would love to see more customization of your class rather than just being a warrior or just being a mage.  Like, let me get a tanking mage or a doctor of death or a ranged rogue, not just the same old classes.

ArchivedUser

I can agree to the appeal that the open leveling system has at first glance. However similar to what Noaani said it creates a vacuum of want.

In my example ill use ESO. If anyone can craft anything at anytime, why would I ever need a crafter? No one wants to voidout what would otherwise be an important cog in a community due to generic behavior.

ArchivedUser

ChuckSteak said:

I can agree to the appeal that the open leveling system has at first glance. However similar to what Noaani said it creates a vacuum of want.

In my example ill use ESO. If anyone can craft anything at anytime, why would I ever need a crafter? No one wants to voidout what would otherwise be an important cog in a community due to generic behavior.

Technically can't you already accomplish that by having multiple characters on the same server?  I'll go back to SWG example, but I seem to remember only being allowed one character per server until the force sensitive unlock...  And then even after that it was pretty limited, unlike WoW or ESO where you can have 11 and 8 respectively.

ArchivedUser

Mack_Simus said:

ChuckSteak said:

I can agree to the appeal that the open leveling system has at first glance. However similar to what Noaani said it creates a vacuum of want.

In my example ill use ESO. If anyone can craft anything at anytime, why would I ever need a crafter? No one wants to voidout what would otherwise be an important cog in a community due to generic behavior.

Technically can't you already accomplish that by having multiple characters on the same server?  I'll go back to SWG example, but I seem to remember only being allowed one character per server until the force sensitive unlock...  And then even after that it was pretty limited, unlike WoW or ESO where you can have 11 and 8 respectively.

If it's easy enough that I can make alts and get them up to par in skill level with my main, in any reasonable amount of time, then the game has already failed me regardless of how progression works. An expensive craft should hold value if it takes you longer to make your own crafter than it did to earn the currency of exchange.

ArchivedUser

I know many will use alts to bypass using or relying on other players for certain skill sets. I know there are many valid and invalid reasons to do so.

I hope the skill tree is hard enough to master that one player focusing all their characters (main+alts) can't master every aspect of gathering, refining, forging, and building/crafting.

As for the open skill system. For me it's like the White Wolf d10 system. It's super customized characters at first, but once everyone gains enough levels everyone's characters end up the same bland characters proficient at only the things needed to survive. Imo.

ArchivedUser

So for a class based system a linear leveling system is easier to develop and plan adventuring content for. 

But it seems like AoC is going to have a linear system for the class but be a bit more open for other things.  At least with the sailing system is going to have you learn the different skills as you do them so that you have to invest time in the parts of it that you want to be proficient at, and hopefully you'll only be able to master 1-2 sailing skills, much like their plans for crafting and gathering where you can only really master 1 or 2 skills.

If they have sailing set up like that I would hope that there are other skill sets in the game you learn by doing and discover.  Maybe running a tavern you start to specialize in what type of tavern you are running and gain some specific managing skills.

They could add these concepts to a lot of things.  Running a town or city can give you different skills that help you manage everything from security to economics, but we'll have to wait and see how in depth these extra skill sets go. 

Also I hope the time investment for crafting is such that grinding up an alt isn't easy, but as time consuming as maxing out an adventuring main so if you really want to do everything with alts its going to take you a lot of investment in time and resources.

ArchivedUser

You start at 1 and level your way up slowly adding abilities and thereby additional key binds required.

This is because for the overwhelming majority of people if you just drop them off into the game fully loaded and leveled they will never have a full comprehension of their class, roll and all the various key binds become to daunting to bother with.

You are then left and I'm sure you have mostly all seen this before; with legions of fully geared, leveled and ranked people running around who have no idea what they are doing. Leaving the top maybe 5-10% of players to carry everyone else.

Ashes of creation is selling itself as a game that will bring back hard(er) mode mmo cultures of questing, raiding, dungeons etc.. Foregoing things like the dungeon and raid finder which combined with things not mentioned and thing yet to be known leaves you with a game that is going to be absolutely dependent on a population of players who know their class right down to the details; which is for the most part why I am here.

ArchivedUser

If i'm answering your why question i'd say its because its the easiest way to map progression and as a player i generally love seeing myself level up. It's been part of nearly every game out there and it just feels good which is why it still exists today. That being said, there are games that can do well without leveling like Breath of the Wild but it's not something you see everyday

ArchivedUser

Why the obsession in linear leveling systems?

With out going into a long spiel, it is a system that is engaging and gives the player a sense of accomplishment. I also agree SWG was one of the best.