My opinion on raid loot/gear rolls

As I understand it, AOC will implement this mechanic. In a world where content/raids are going to change with nodes going up/down, I don't see the real need to roll for loot. Steven already mentioned that raids are going to be super difficult and it will require lots of patients and tactics to go through these things.

But if certain gears are localized in certain raids and that you have a small chance to get in a raid provided that you have enough DPS/HPS to get in a group and only if you put up a good DPS/HPS will you be eligible to roll for loot and on top of that, that raid content might be locked out because there will be a siege on the node the next day etc ..etc.. See where I'm going with this? It's going to invite a lot of elitism.

Look how successful ESO is, it doesn't have any roll to win mechanic and yet everyone is competitive in that game. So I hope Steven will reconsider this mechanic, ultimately it won't be a game changer for me especially if crafting could also be a viable way to make legendary gear. So I'm not really a fan of round robin roll for loot WoW style, I just think it's getting old. I would prefer however if every player has a small chance for a personal drop of gear rather then all of us rolling for it.
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Comments

  • I have always liked the idea of...

    1. Boss Dies
    2. You get a scale or some hide or some rare item from boss
    3. You take that to the armorer or whatever and make a rare piece of gear / weapon

    It makes sense lore wise cause some big bosses gonna have lots of skin to "farm" so everyone can get a piece. 
  • Spun666 said:
    I have always liked the idea of...

    1. Boss Dies
    2. You get a scale or some hide or some rare item from boss
    3. You take that to the armorer or whatever and make a rare piece of gear / weapon

    It makes sense lore wise cause some big bosses gonna have lots of skin to "farm" so everyone can get a piece. 
    IS did say that crafting will be a method to get the best gear along with loot from raids so possibly we will get crafting materials from bosses.
  • Yes, they just mentioned this. Who gets loot is still TBD during testing, but resources like skins or other resources will require a crafter with the required level in gathering to harvest. Once done, the boss will be "spoiled" and no further resources can be looted. Depends on how it goes during testing. If there are 3 gatherers in the group do they all get to skin, or does the boss only kick off a single resource of that type and then is done. Will make for some great infighting and ninja looting in some cases. "Today is McFuzznuts turn to skin the boss. Hey! Hey! Sepiroth1337! Get away from the corpse! It isn't your turn to loot! Dammit, he ninjaed the skin! Get him! Dammit, he is in our alliance! We can't attack him! Add him to the ignore list!"
  • In a current podcast Steven said that you will probably need a Master Gatherer to loot crafting elements from bosses.  This is a mechanic that is different from any game I've played, but interesting.

    Otherwise I'm all for the game giving each person their loot without it being rolled on in any way.
  • T-Elf said:

    Otherwise I'm all for the game giving each person their loot without it being rolled on in any way.
    They have never said that there would be individual loot. Quite the opposite, there will be multiple ways chosen by the leader of the group. Your traditional Need/Greed, Free Roll, and others were all mentioned. Individual loot was a no.
  • Spun666 said:
    I have always liked the idea of...

    1. Boss Dies
    2. You get a scale or some hide or some rare item from boss
    3. You take that to the armorer or whatever and make a rare piece of gear / weapon

    It makes sense lore wise cause some big bosses gonna have lots of skin to "farm" so everyone can get a piece. 
    see I know this is not a mmo but dragon age as a series has done a great job in this regard.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Why can't they just do what ESO is doing where if you loot a gear that binds to you, you can still trade that loot within the members of the group your raiding only for a limited time before you lose the chance of ever trading/selling again.
  •  "Today is McFuzznuts turn to skin the boss. Hey! Hey! Sepiroth1337! Get away from the corpse! It isn't your turn to loot! Dammit, he ninjaed the skin! Get him! Dammit, he is in our alliance! We can't attack him! Add him to the ignore list!"
    ^ take note of this scenario ... 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    T-Elf said:

    Otherwise I'm all for the game giving each person their loot without it being rolled on in any way.
    They have never said that there would be individual loot. Quite the opposite, there will be multiple ways chosen by the leader of the group. Your traditional Need/Greed, Free Roll, and others were all mentioned. Individual loot was a no.
    What I said is an opinion, not what's planned.
  • It's a delicate balance. I play ESO and I think gear is just too easy to come by. The sheer volume dropped means that everyone has the gear they need. You don't want a system that disenfranchises people because they can NEVER get their gear, but equally a saturated environment just results in boredom.

    For many, pursuing the best version of their character is a big motivation to play; that motivation needs to be sustained without spoiling that person or disengaging them.
  • Oiraeket said:
    It's a delicate balance. I play ESO and I think gear is just too easy to come by. The sheer volume dropped means that everyone has the gear they need. You don't want a system that disenfranchises people because they can NEVER get their gear, but equally a saturated environment just results in boredom.

    For many, pursuing the best version of their character is a big motivation to play; that motivation needs to be sustained without spoiling that person or disengaging them.
    I have to agree. After getting all the gear i wanted in guild wars 2 I felt my self losing interest as I had reached my end goal and I didn't have anything else to look forward to. It was only when the expansion came out that I want to play again.
  • This is a fine balance, as @Oiraeket pointed out. And honestly, if I have to chose between too hard vs too easy, I'll always go with too hard.. They can always fine-adjust the drop system, drop rates and so on, but there is no turning back if it is WAY too easy and suddenly before you know it the market is flooded with "rares" that are no longer rare. 
  • nagash said:
    Oiraeket said:
    It's a delicate balance. I play ESO and I think gear is just too easy to come by. The sheer volume dropped means that everyone has the gear they need. You don't want a system that disenfranchises people because they can NEVER get their gear, but equally a saturated environment just results in boredom.

    For many, pursuing the best version of their character is a big motivation to play; that motivation needs to be sustained without spoiling that person or disengaging them.
    I have to agree. After getting all the gear i wanted in guild wars 2 I felt my self losing interest as I had reached my end goal and I didn't have anything else to look forward to. It was only when the expansion came out that I want to play again.

    Not all gear was easy to get in ESO, sure compared to other MMORPG'S maybe it's a bit easier but you still have to grind and pay for legendary upgrade of all your gear. Besides, I grinded lots of sets for different PVP gameplay in ESO that made me stay in the game for years.

    The point I'm trying to make is, if your trying to make a game to appease both casual and hardcore players, you need a system from both worlds. But if you make a game where I have to roll to compete on a gear against other players, it's inviting elitism and (rage quits). ESO actually lets you share the loot vs fighting over loot. That doesn't mean it's easy to get gear when your running a dungeon. Some dungeons are hard, granted most are easy. But that's how it is with all new content with any game, it's hard at first until you finally get the mechanics down. 

  • I'd be quite pleased with AoC if they dispensed with the nonsensical practice of having bosses drop gear that players can actually use. Why would a 25-ft demon (for instance) be dropping armour that a Dwarf could wear? It makes little sense.

    Given that  crafted gear is meant to be the top gear, I feel that rewards should come from:
    - looting the raid bosses and perhaps some of the elite mobs in the raid, producing hides, scales, bones, venom glands, etc, that can be used by crafters in the production of armour, weapons, potions, poisons, etc.
    - gathering material from the chamber that the raid boss was guarding/hoarding: rare gems or veins, rare plants, sacred spring water, ancient treasure chests, etc.

    A few things would be needed to make this work:
    - make resources plentiful so that everyone has a shot at looting
    - make it so people can only loot once
    - make the bosses increase in strength based on the number of assailants. Make the increase mildly exponential so that lean groups are encouraged, and carrying weak members to milk the rewards is discouraged.

    The random nature of traditional dungeon/raid loot was an extreme turn-off for me when I still did that content. I'd love to see Intrepid Studios make some improvements to the traditional loot system.
  • Nefelia said:
    Given that  crafted gear is meant to be the top gear
    The best gear will be a combination of crafted gear and looted gear. Not crafted alone. 
  • TexTHKM said:
    Nefelia said:
    Given that  crafted gear is meant to be the top gear
    The best gear will be a combination of crafted gear and looted gear. Not crafted alone. 

    I stand corrected.

    I just hope that these gear drops make sense. Slaying a wolf should not reward you with a set of gloves. Nor should the slaying of a mutant mushroom monster reward you with a helmet.

    Hopefully IS ensures that only humanoid foes are capable of dropping weapons and armour.
  • When that wolf drops a full plate chest piece I always wonder if he would have beaten me if he could have figured out how to put it on.   
  • All you have to do is consider that maybe the wolf killed someone wearing plate and when you loot an animal, it is not what the mob has actually carried or swallowed, but what is in its den. The game just allows you to click and pick it up without having you go through the process of searching the corpse, gutting it to see what is inside, show you ruffling through piles of dung for that magic ring, or searching bushes or dens. But if that is a deal breaker for ya, good luck.
  • Gutted to hear that yet again, another promising new mmo with loads of innovative ideas, stays with Need or Greed. Its places players who've teamed and shared an experience with each other up to that point in direct competition with each other, and to start playing "entitlement accountants" with each others rolls on the loot. Yummy teaming experience that offers by default, not.

    Need or Greed (NoG) is not needed for a healthy economy, if that's some peoples concern. Scarcity, supply and demand does that. And that can be controlled via back end drop chances, without making players seesaw back and forth as competitors and team mates within gameplay.

    Gameplay (dungeons, raids, pvp etc...) should be hard. Looting should not be a part of that. Players should never be placed in competition with their team mates, if you want to encourage social play/teaming.

    A healthy economy that's paid for by toxic looting mechanisms isn't worth it. It bites the game in its ass. If you think "casuals can go suck a lemon", then remember, Need or Greed encourages "casual" gameplay, in that it encourages players to solo.

    If you want a healthy economy, you can do it without NoG very easily, at root, by controlling drop rates. NoG is not only unnecessary, but toxic to a game.

  • @captrench I understand where you're coming from. But how loot will be dispersed should be fleshed out before you start the encounter with your buddies such that entitlement doesn't play a part. The onus of that will fall on the leader.

    You also have a much higher chance of getting the gear you need through the Need or Greed system as opposed to getting one individual roll on the raid boss, especially if you roll with a trustworthy group.

    Player's arn't going to be turned away and solo if that's where the end game content and gear is at. Moreover, the premise of this whole game just sets us up for player driven conflict, be it violent, political, or economic. If that drama bothers you, you may be outta luck.
  • @Beolupus (not sure how to selectively quote posts here yet in this forum)

    "But how loot will be dispersed should be fleshed out before you start the encounter with your buddies such that entitlement doesn't play a part."

    That's sort of obvious. But it doesn't work that way. If you have to "flesh it out" beforehand, then that just proves my point. because if it were so obvious who is entitled to roll need vs greed in the first place you wouldn't need to discuss it at all, or "remind" people what they are entitled to roll on.

    But because we know that people can be random, and people do get upset when someone "steals" a need roll when they should roll greed instead, we need to play lawyer with each other before each mission.

    And the only reason we have to do this? Because of the Need or Greed system in the first place. Because its there. And its not needed at all. Its not a must have.

    The tension of someone making the wrong loot choice, whether accidentaly or deliberately is always there and polite people generally get screwed over by assholes or established groups who favour those they know. Even amongst "friends" tensions can get in the way of an otherwise relaxing game as someone rolls need for their alt instead of letting their team mate need it legitimately for their active character. Its a toxic system.

    I've played for years with games both Need or Greed and/or Master Looter systems, and also in games where each player gets and collects their own loot (lets call it Autoloot for the sake of discussion). I know both, and the difference that makes in communities and ambience during missions.

    Autoloot works better, and makes null and void any issues about loot rolls. It keeps the focus on the mission, the raid, the fun stuff. Playing loot accountant against my team mates does not enhance gameplay.

    Remember, Need or Greed is not there for the benefit of the player. Its normally a way for the developers to slow a players progress so the player has to play for longer to get progression. In fact, one could argue its a cheap way to stretch content without having to worry about the contents replayability so much.

    I've played mmo's enough to know enough about the pros and cons of NoG. Its toxic and does nothing but cause arguments and add tension in a game where people should be focussed on the content, teaming and gameplay.

  • captrench said:


    Autoloot works better, and makes null and void any issues about loot rolls. It keeps the focus on the mission, the raid, the fun stuff. Playing loot accountant against my team mates does not enhance gameplay.


    Autoloot has its own issues. People tend to faceroll when they know that their performance has to be "hit the boss one time for loot." ESO has autoloot and addons, so what did someone do. They created an addon that allows people to see what others have looted. So your "NoG slows it down and causes bad feelings" is the same. I get "Can I have that?" whispers during raids. When I say no, people rage quit, talk shit, and all the other behavior that NoG entails. Individual loot only works in games where the loot is bound and can't be traded. Ashes will have various systems for looting when grouped. It will be up to you to decide if that particular group is for you beforehand. No more joining a pug and coasting along, you are going to have to find people you know and trust to run with. The point of them building a community based game again.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018

    .../duplicate post...

  • @UnknownSystemError

    That's a pretty weak counter.

    People tend to faceroll when they know that their performance has to be "hit the boss one time for loot".

    If you are discussing an open world game, where the fear/worry/annoyance is mob stealing, that's nothing to do with the loot system, but rather with the system used to allocate loot rights after a mob kill. Doesn't matter what loot system if you have in that scenario. So, not relevant.

    ESO has autoloot and addons, so what did someone do. They created an addon that allows people to see what others have looted. So your 'NoG slows it down and causes bad feelings' is the same."

    And again, the problem here is that the developers didn't obfuscate looting mechanisms sufficiently to solve the problem with NoG. If a player can bypass in game systems meant to hide loot distribution, it means one of two things. Either its bad code that players can easily get past (same issue as "hax! in pvp etc...) or the developers always intended the game to be open and just provided a token gesture almost cosmetic "autoloot" system that can be bypassed by players with the blessings of the devs, leading you exactly back to where you started, as you yourself describe, with other players wanting your loot.

    So, again, not relevant to my point.

    Individual loot only works in games where the loot is bound and can't be traded.

    Nope, loot can be traded in all games I've seen Individual loot/Autoloot within. City of Heroes/Guildwars2 etc...

    And again, Bind on Pickup/Equip are generally associated with games with Need or Greed, which just adds to the tension when an item that's Bind on Pickup has just been ninja'd by someone, so even if they wanted to trade it with you, they cant. And again, that just makes everyone more suspicious and tense during loot rolls. Yummy teaming experience that is.

    Bind on Pickup in a game with Autoloot means nothing really. If I'm getting my loot I don't need to know what you got. Its me vs the RNGeesus, not another player I need to lawyerise/play loot accountant with.

    Ashes will have various systems for looting when grouped. It will be up to you to decide if that particular group is for you beforehand. No more joining a pug and coasting along, you are going to have to find people you know and trust to run with. The point of them building a community based game again.

    And this is all platitudes. Every game before it could and did say something similar. Communities in games end up mirroring the systems within them. Toxic systems lead to toxic communities. And the evidence of what NoG does to teaming is plain to see.

    Defending it is just a weird form of Stockholm Syndrome.


  • @captrench "Remember, Need or Greed is not there for the benefit of the player. Its normally a way for the developers to slow a players progress so the player has to play for longer to get progression. In fact, one could argue its a cheap way to stretch content without having to worry about the contents replayability so much."

    Believe it or not, some people including myself like that the progression is slowed. Not everyone needs to be able to easily access the end game loot. That struggle and exclusivity (call it toxic if you like) is actually a draw to the game. The issues that surround NoG are more prevalent among more casual gamers whom are more inclined to group with randoms. However, there are a lot of successful games for players in this category already ala GW2. This game features player driven conflict including open world pvp, it may not be as relaxing as your hoping. If someone ninjas your stuff, killem :smile:
  • Beolupus said:
    @captrench "Remember, Need or Greed is not there for the benefit of the player. Its normally a way for the developers to slow a players progress so the player has to play for longer to get progression. In fact, one could argue its a cheap way to stretch content without having to worry about the contents replayability so much."

    Believe it or not, some people including myself like that the progression is slowed. Not everyone needs to be able to easily access the end game loot. That struggle and exclusivity (call it toxic if you like) is actually a draw to the game. The issues that surround NoG are more prevalent among more casual gamers whom are more inclined to group with randoms. However, there are a lot of successful games for players in this category already ala GW2. This game features player driven conflict including open world pvp, it may not be as relaxing as your hoping. If someone ninjas your stuff, killem :smile:

    Progression can be slowed multiple ways, not just through NoG. Scarcity of items or materials can be controlled by many mechanisms, not just one. My only point was that players shouldn't kid themselves its a system designed to benefit the player. Its not. Its a shortcut to making better more replayable content, or more creative/less toxic systems that slow progression.

    And don't confuse my dislike of NoG with a desire to reach endgame content or gear as quickly as possible. I play games slow because I'm in no hurry. My point is not about wanting my leet lootz as qwik az pozz naoh plox ;)

    Also, please don't make your point "Plenty of other games that are more like what you want, go play those if you don't like one single system in this game". I like plenty of things about this game, and have put my money on it for those things (and a few other in development games too! Hey, I love games). But that doesn't mean there isn't room for criticism too.

    Its simply as I said already, NoG is a toxic system that undermines the social aspect of teaming.

    But... I will not say one word against your individual preferences. If you don't get aggravated by NoG, if it doesn't bug you as a poor system, if it isn't hard for you to ignore and you even see a benefit, I'm fine with that.

    But for me and many others it is as I say, toxic, demonstrably. By the sounds of it, you'd be happy in a game without it too, if you progression was at a speed you were happy with.

    And lets not confuse casual games with "hardcore" games. Its irrelevant to the point, and just adds more stuff to argue about. Who defines casual, or hardcore? And what does it matter either way? There's no machismo in a playstyle. Apparently even Hello Kitty Online has raids?

    So... We're playing games, nothing more heroic than that. I'd like to focus on the main game proper, and less on the pvp minigame of "who has and needs what and do they need it more than me or will they be upset if I roll for it". Its definitely not fun and just gets in the way of good teaming. I get enough pvp ay work!

    I appreciate the tone of your reply by the way. I'm not here to rile people up or argue if I can help it. I really do think that NoG is a bad system.

  • @captrench Also respect your opinion on the matter mate. I will generally always lean to whats the most immersive. Personally, I want a high fantasy world simulator than a video game if that makes any sense.

    Like others in this thread have commented, they would prefer to see only realistic drops like scales, bones, skin, etc as opposed to actual pieces of gear from enemies whom would never have them. I'm of a like mind with this concept, but also taking the realism further in that there would just be one loot pool of monster parts for the whole group and its up to the group to divvy it up fairly (NoG is one implementation, but maybe there's something better).

    I also like the idea (which i think will be implemented to an extent), that only certain crafters will know what parts of the slayed monster are useful, so they will have an indicator that they can harvest something that others wouldn't see.


  • NoG is good because if 2 players need the same item one cant get angry because the other got it with a roll of the dice and it was a fair fight.
    No right to complain or place demands.

    Looting doesnt need to be "I needed it for my main and u got it for ur alt".
    There are ways to avoid that like being able to only roll items for ur class.
    Even a system that lets player choose 3 item categories they need the most.
    Roll against others with the same priorities and then roll equally on items no-one had priority on.
    Player chose his priorities and has no right to complain afterwards.
    Another fair fight.

    Instead of "You shouldnt have rolled on that" they are not able to do so when correct systems are in place for playing with shady people.

    If you have a team u can trust these are not needed and can stay turned off.

    NoG is not the problem, its all about how its implemented.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018

    NoG is not the problem, its all about how its implemented.
    I think this is the core of it (as with anything, no?). Implementation. 

    @captrench , you call NoG toxic and yet, I've been part of end game groups filled with multiple guilds and roll order for things from bosses is prioritized based on participation, who can make the best use of it, who is best skilled or could make the biggest impact with said piece of gear, etc. It's all determined ahead of time and logically thought out and agreed upon by all. You then might even have 2 or 4 people who both get first shots at certain things. In big community based games where the hardest content is not soloable and big amounts of communication, teamwork, and trust amongst members of the group is needed NoG/lottery systems don't cause toxicity at all because there is already a hierarchy in place within those guilds/communities. 

    NoG becomes toxic particularly in pick up parties and rando's. In this case, having a different option available is likely a good idea. I'm a fan of non-binding class specific drops that you can still pass on if you don't need,and if you already have one to then allow other classes to open lot on it. This is a slight variation on need or greed I admit, but it's still a bit better than allowing a player to horde several pieces of the same drop. 

    While great for leveling and mid-game I'm not convinced it's best for high level end game content; in particular, if it's a crafting item that can be used for many many things how do you decide how that should be looted/distributed? If a high level crafter is needed, then that limits who can acquire it (which I like actually) but how do you determine which of the 3 master leatherworkers get to skin the beast? 

    At the end of the day it comes down to what Blackhearted said: It's all about implementation. I would add: flexibility and options to that. 

    idea: allow pugs to select the type of loot system they want when queing in a matchmaker. 

    idea 2: have no matchmaker and instead a party search option. Allow people to note their preferred loot systems as part of a party marker next to their name and they can only be invited to parties that share those types of looting systems. Once a party is formed the looting system is auto-locked in and cannot be changed so players can't get vamboozled. 
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