Combat and Mechanics -- Make/Break

2

Comments

  • Yeah, wrong person. Sorry dude! >.<

  • Is that not flinch mechanics at work? Sure, they are not as blatant as in Lost Ark, but hits do create a momentary stall in the mobs' attacks.

    But upon further reflection, the problem with BDO's combat is not purely the minor flinch mechanic, but rather the other elements of combat combined with the flinch mechanics that make BDO's combat a snore-fest:

    Melee-only combat:  most of the mob groups I see in the many BDO videos I've watched are melee-only. In fact, all of them were, but I'm assuming that there is a moderate amount of PvE ranges threat that I just haven't found yet.

    Reach:  a player's attack has a ridiculous reach, effecting mobs that are clearly outside the reach of the player's weapon... which means the flinch mechanics effect mobs that are clearly outside the reach of a player's weapon.

    Slow movement and attack:  so many of the mobs lumber up to the player, take a goddamned second to stop, and then make their attack. This allows ample time for the player to begin his attack sequence to quickly whittle the mob's health while taking advantage of the flinch mechanic to further delay the incoming attacks.


    The severity of the flinch mechanics by themselves is up for debate. But taken with the other elements of BDO's combat, I feel that it makes for a terribly boring PvE combat experience. I feel that IS would do well to take note of these failings and ensure that they are not reproduced in AoC.
  • Nefelia said:
    ... taken with the other elements of BDO's combat, I feel that it makes for a terribly boring PvE combat experience.
    I initially wanted to say that this reply was off-topic, considering most of what we have been talking about was in relation to PvP combat mechanics, but I digress.

    Personally, I don't think about the reactions between players and monsters; though I will say games like Tera did an amazing job with BAMs and how they felt to engage.
    That said, I can't ignore the fact that you are right about difficulty in PvE--it's far too easy, especially in BDO.

    The thing is, with BDO the entire game becomes about two things at it's end (around level 61):
    1. Grind-out monsters as efficiently as possible for silver > Use that silver to obtain full PEN enchantment level gear (the best you can possibly do) and level up (since, technically there is no "max level", only soft/hard caps
    2. PvP and siege, period.

    Because BDO is so heavily based on grinding monsters for hours and days on end, they make a conscious effort to put the PvE difficulty down in terms of the average monster. They want players to watch a movie/series/anime, while grinding as the developers understand it's a very tedious and time-consuming part of the game.

    They make things a bit harder with elites or world boss monsters; here's a video from one of the desert's elite monsters:

    On a mechanical note, one thing that you won't really get from watching PvE videos like the one that you linked, is this: about half the skills in BDO have CC that ONLY applies to PvE, not PvP. So, while you may see a monster flinch (inflicted with a "stiffness" state, it's a type of CC and I think that's what you're seeing), that CC can't actually occur in PvP.

    I think the sub-par PvE can be fixed by increasing the amount of EXP you get per mob, decreasing the pack size, and increasing difficulty... but that's not the type of game BDO is. Just look at Maplestory; it's a 2D game about killing endless spawning monsters to increase your level. People don't play Maplestory or BDO for the PvE, they play it for the PvP (or social aspect in Maplestory's case, since it has no PvP).

    Sorry, that probably sounded like a rant, but basically to sum it up: some games have different focuses. BDO is definately a PvP  focused game. There are no stereotypical dungeons or instances (unless you count the desert instances like Akman, which are really just other zones to grind in) -- the only real end-game content is PvP/Siege.

    @Nefelia I'd love to discuss this with you further and I'm curious to hear what your opinion is on an optimal MMO after years of experience; if you want to talk about it, my discord name is: Soulune#4928 and I invite anyone who has an opinion what a perfect MMO should look like to message/call me on Discord (though, I may not respond until after 6pm EST).

    My experience specializes around combat mechanics and guild systems (as I've lead some very high ranking siege/PvP guilds over the past several games), but drops off when talking about PvE and crafting/gathering systems.

    I want to make an effort to understand other players thoughts and feelings on all of these subjects. It would make me a better player and allow me to offer more useful suggestions to the AoC community.

  • soulune said:
    I initially wanted to say that this reply was off-topic, considering most of what we have been talking about was in relation to PvP combat mechanics, but I digress.
    I did wander a bit away from the original topic. I'm okay with that since this is a discussion rather than a debate.

    BDO has a limited appeal - even among PvP players - due to the necessity of a long and boring PvE grind. It is my hope that Steven is aware of the factors that makes BDO PvE as terrible as it is so that he can avoid making similar mistakes with AoC PvE combat.

    If that is not the case, then perhaps these types of discussion can better inform the devs at Intrepid Studios.

    I think the sub-par PvE can be fixed by increasing the amount of EXP you get per mob, decreasing the pack size, and increasing difficulty... but that's not the type of game BDO is.

    Even if BDO is a PvP game at its core, the fact that its PvE is so terrible is something that should be addressed. A lot of players do not reach the PvP end-game due to the utter boredom of the process of reaching that end-game.

    I do not know how well BDO is currently doing, but I am aware that it could have done a lot better with better PvE systems (along with less RNG and P2W, but those issues are way off topic and not useful to this discussion).


    BDO is definately a PvP  focused game.
    Unfortunately, I'm not particularly impressed with the PvP combat as well.

    From what I've seen, PvP is primarily a positioning match in which the person to get into the best position first (usually behind the opponent) gets the kill. Assuming gear parity, of course.

    I admit that I am basing this opinion on the videos I've seen.

    I want to make an effort to understand other players thoughts and feelings on all of these subjects.
    In regards to PvP combat, I do not find zipping around and unleashing burst to be compelling PvP play. Gap-closers and teleports will definitely be present in AoC, but I would much prefer to see a moderate cool-down on such skills.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Double Post.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Triple Post.  :(
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Aaaaand quadruple.
  • That Combo right there
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    I think a lot of people are talking about PvE only because even in BDO you could button mash in PvE.

    You shouldnt take PvE combat as an example because it only scratches the surface.
    In bdo PvE you have stupid AI along with stiffs and knockbacks.
    Im quite sure these properties united are brought up as flinch mechanics.


    BDO community hates the game devs because they keep degrading the game with poorly thought decisions.
    Yet they still play because of the potential they see in the combat system and hope for devs to find reason should say a lot.

    Animation cancelling that affects damage is the best Ive felt so far.
    The freedom you have in combat is palpable.




  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    That feel when you write a response and it doesn't actually post... @Nefelia , I will respond retype later XD #FeelsBadMan

  • Nefelia said:

    Even if BDO is a PvP game at its core, the fact that its PvE is so terrible is something that should be addressed. A lot of players do not reach the PvP end-game due to the utter boredom of the process of reaching that end-game.

    I think a lot of people are talking about PvE only because even in BDO you could button mash in PvE.

    You shouldnt take PvE combat as an example because it only scratches the surface.
    @Blackhearted has it completely right. Black Desert Online isn't about the monsters in PvE, it's about showing off the fantastic and responsive combat system. I am a very PvP-Centric, but I enjoy PvE in BDO because it allows me to experiment with combat. It's not fun to grind for hours on end, I agree, but that's just the type of game it is. If you don't like it, others might enjoy the grind; and that's completely fine -- to each, their own.

    Nefelia said:

    From what I've seen, PvP is primarily a positioning match in which the person to get into the best position first (usually behind the opponent) gets the kill. Assuming gear parity, of course.

    I admit that I am basing this opinion on the videos I've seen.

    Your concerns seem to be with the way combat/movement works and the emphasis on gear, based on the videos you've seen.

    First, I want to talk about how you're insinuating PvP shouldn't be a positioning match.

    Any average player can view combat guides and learn how to combo/animation cancel, with the same speed as a professional (after practice). So, why can't that player take down a professional? It's the difference in positioning. That's what a 3D game brings to the table -- the ability to position your character in a way that is advantageous to your victory.
    A professional knows how to exploit space, when to distance themselves, when to close-in, how their abilities/CC will affect the position of their enemy, and how to dodge (not just when, but where they will end up after dodging).

    Positioning and movement is a giant part of PvP; anyone with sufficient experience knows this.

    As for gear... There isn't much to be said. I completely agree with you, a player with much better gear that is even slightly competent will overpower a player with significantly lower gear. Period.

    I will say, if you actually worked for years on full PEN gear in BDO, you would want to feel more powerful than other players; if that wasn't the case, then character progression wouldn't be a thing. The problem is, it's an unattainable goal for new/players who don't want to spend 12-14h a day grinding -- and even then, it's a lot about RNG.

    The developers actually announced a large change to their enchantment system and rework to the marketplace, so that issue seems to be getting fixed (from the notes I've read)... But we'll see. Pearl Abyss isn't the most community focused development team.

    Anyways, since you seem to like judging games via YouTube videos, here are a few good links that will maybe change your mind about how combat works/feels in BDO and why AoC should take a page out of their book:

    1. This video is of the Halloween event where the devs masqueraded around on a Sorcerer (Scythe/Magic wielding class) with God-Mode and max gear on, killing Red Players (PKers). Little did they know, this Ninja actually knew how to PvP and dodged/locked them down until they actually gave up and left. One of my favorite videos of player skill in a game.


    2. Here are some combo guides that I used, before combat was changed; they are still good, for the most part. They also demonstrate the skill memorization needed to PvP and CC chain correctly in BDO.

    Ninja:
    Ranger:

    Sorry, I really only main Ranger/Ninja, so those are the only videos I have lol.
    Enjoy! ^-^
  • soulune said:
    Anyways, since you seem to like judging games via YouTube videos, here are a few good links that will maybe change your mind about how combat works/feels in BDO and why AoC should take a page out of their book:

    One of my favorite videos of player skill in a game.

    Ninja:
    Ranger:

    Sorry, I really only main Ranger/Ninja, so those are the only videos I have lol.
    Enjoy! ^-^
    I have no idea what is going on in these videos, all I can see is flashing and dashing. 

    Combat should be clear enough so that outside viewers can tell what is going on. That is not the case for BDO. AoC should not be taking any pages out of the chewed up magazine that is BDO.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Seaber said:

    Combat should be clear enough so that outside viewers can tell what is going on. That is not the case for BDO. AoC should not be taking any pages out of the chewed up magazine that is BDO.
    I'm not sure how much more clear you want combat to be without taking away from the effects of the skills (they are pretty dramatic, I'll give you that.). The player is just evading in/out of skill ranges, then reengaging; it's all pretty standard practice in PvP.

    Like any game, it's pretty hard to understand unless you play it. I have very few hours in World of Warcraft and can't tell what's going on in PvP, either. Though, I wouldn't call it a "...chewed up magazine..." because of that, lol.

    If you can't tell what's going on in these guide videos or a player's recorded PvP video with low graphical settings, then I suggest you pay a bit more attention to the attacks and how they are telegraphed.
  • Seaber said:
    Combat should be clear enough so that outside viewers can tell what is going on. That is not the case for BDO. AoC should not be taking any pages out of the chewed up magazine that is BDO.
    Why? Last i checked we aren't trying to make an E-sport, it's not like the game needs to be designed for an outside audience. If the game is able to properly introduce the mechanics to the player, i don't see the problem.

    NOTE: not saying i want BDO combat, just thought this was a bad argument against it.
  • I can agree with Nefelia on the attack range of skills in bdo.
     BDO large scale doesnt work that well because there are too many, too large and too strong aoes.
    Most non-range classes are just trying to find smaller battles within larger battles to feel useful.
     Ranges would just spam aoes and anyone who wanted through would die.
    If the skills had lower range and smaller area of effect we could see large battles like those in movies.


    Nefelia you should probably know that zapping isnt as simple as pressing a button.
    You have to time the movement skills right if you want to avoid damage, direct it away from damage to where you can retaliate along with micromanaging the cds and stamina.
    Saying its just zipping around is only demeaning and an excuse to not study the ground of the argument.


    A lot of games have priorities and rotations but in bdo you had to actually learn the combos by practise because of the game mechanics and keybinds.
    When you learn the class it becomes literally faster.
    Regular vs pro is like a 10% attack speed difference.
    Having mechanics like in bdo simply make a game harder by offering a challenge in taming ur class.

    I dont think anyone wants another copy of bdo but just bits of the core of combat.
    Not the ccs nor abilities, but the mechanics under all that rubble.
    Skill flows and ani cancel create a rewarding combat that offers freedom and rewards those who put effort to learn them.

    Also you cant see those properties in gameplay vids without learning them first.
  • I really don't want this whole discussion to be about only BDO's combat; does anyone have a different game they enjoyed combat in? My other few would be Aion/B&S.
  • Why? Last i checked we aren't trying to make an E-sport, it's not like the game needs to be designed for an outside audience. If the game is able to properly introduce the mechanics to the player, i don't see the problem.
    Streams and videos are massive venues for advertising. Many potential players, that are not able to understand what is happening on screen, will not play. Leading to lower server populations. This is a problem because mmorpgs need massive amounts of players to function.
  • soulune said:
    I really don't want this whole discussion to be about only BDO's combat; does anyone have a different game they enjoyed combat in? My other few would be Aion/B&S.
    Tera Online 2012-2013
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018

    Tera Online 2012-2013
    What about it specifically? I really enjoyed farming BAMs and the end-game dungeons were pretty good.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    *Can't delete post, so just edited*

    For some reason a post I made two days ago, literally just posted.
    Please disregard.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Jahlon said:

    Everything you talk about really leverages flaws in the combat system, so the simple answer is that I hope Ashes designs a combat system where you don't do action cancelling, animation cancelling, etc.
    I share your thoughts on this. While utilizing these features can be a form of skill. It doesn't change the fact that these are, usually, the result of design flaws. Rather than intentional design.
  • Glory said:
    Jahlon said:

    Everything you talk about really leverages flaws in the combat system, so the simple answer is that I hope Ashes designs a combat system where you don't do action cancelling, animation cancelling, etc.
    I share your thoughts on this. While utilizing these features can be a form of skill. It doesn't change the fact that these are, usually, the result of design flaws. Rather than intentional design.
    We aren't talking about combat flaws; everything I mentioned in my original post was put in and kept in by the developers of their respective games (Aion's weaving, BDO's animation canceling, etc.).

    I completely agree that flaws in a system should not be used to ones advantage -- they should be reported and fixed. The only thing I am advocating here is combat complexity.
  • While I can certainly agree that from a mathematical and thus mechanical standpoint animation canceling generates better numbers per combo, my issue is that animation canceling is anti-emersion, and thus I have to question if it has any place in an mmorpg at all. Such things make sense in mobas because that is the kind of experience all players are coming for: a show of mechanical prowess. By contrast, few rpg players would relish being PKed by someone whose avatar movements defy conventional logic.
  • Lythawan said:
    While I can certainly agree that from a mathematical and thus mechanical standpoint animation canceling generates better numbers per combo, my issue is that animation canceling is anti-emersion, and thus I have to question if it has any place in an mmorpg at all. Such things make sense in mobas because that is the kind of experience all players are coming for: a show of mechanical prowess. By contrast, few rpg players would relish being PKed by someone whose avatar movements defy conventional logic.
    Moving through a complicated combat dance just to suddenly stop and “glitch” into a regular stance is clumsy, terrible design that put me in mind of old 8-bit games.  It’s a crutch that incompetent game designers implement and has no place in a quality game.

    I have faith that IS can make a combat system better than that.
  • Abilities should register output/effect at the end of animations.
    Normal atks should register output/effect at the end of animations
    Channeling casting abilities should register output/effect in accordance with discreption(lol AC and weaving makes channeling abilities useless. Swap them for direct abilities)

    Blocking
    Dodging
    Counter attacking
    Teleporting
    Gap closing
    These actions should cancel any ability used at the moment of the decision to react in a situation.
    These actions should cancel the output/effect of any ability used at the moment of the decision to react in a situation.
    These actions should cancel the ANIMATION of any ability used at the moment of tge decision to react in a sittuation.

    In a proper combat design all abilities, class, race, weapon, other are useful.
    In games with weaving and AC only the abilities (classes weapon race other) with the quickest effect are viable in order to NormalatkUseabilitydodgeatk within 0.7s

    Brainless rotation, same abilities for all
    No reactive combat
    No judgment or skill
    Meta

    Let the best player win in a combat design in which it is impossible to cancel ability animations but still register output/effect
  • soulune said:

    First, I want to talk about how you're insinuating PvP shouldn't be a positioning match.
    I certainly recognize the importance of positioning and mobility in PvP. I simply do not like the way it is implemented in BDO.

    BDO may have actually done far better if it had not been an MMO.

    Anyways, since you seem to like judging games via YouTube videos,

    I do judge games via Youtube videos, and I do so shamelessly.  :)

    The visual appeal and flow of combat is important on a marketing standpoint. Most people spend a fair deal of time looking at game-play videos before making the decision to purchase a game. Game developers need to keep this in mind when designing their combat system.



    Nefelia you should probably know that zapping isnt as simple as pressing a button.
    You have to time the movement skills right if you want to avoid damage, direct it away from damage to where you can retaliate along with micromanaging the cds and stamina.
    Saying its just zipping around is only demeaning and an excuse to not study the ground of the argument.
    Regardless of the skill required to pull it off effectively, the zipping is one of the elements of BDO that simply holds little appeal to me.

    Perhaps the videos I've seen have over-emphasized how crucial the zip is to PvP combat? Perhaps not. I'll just note that some of the videos I've seen made it look like zipping was the most important element of positioning and initiating an attack sequence.

    Whether this is true or not in BDO's case, I'd rather not see AoC develop an over-reliance on teleports for PvP.

    A lot of games have priorities and rotations but in bdo you had to actually learn the combos by practise because of the game mechanics and keybinds.
    When you learn the class it becomes literally faster.
    Regular vs pro is like a 10% attack speed difference.
    Having mechanics like in bdo simply make a game harder by offering a challenge in taming ur class.

    This was the biggest turn-off for me, to be quite honest. Press this and that button for this ability, this one and that other one for to other ability.

    I was seriously considering buying BDO at the height of the hype (before P2W, RNG, gear gap, and grinding issues tanked that hype), but this element of the game play just killed my budding enthusiasm.

    I feel that finger-twister is an element that does not belong in an MMO, and that opinion largely informed my decision to delay (and later abandon) my plan to but BDO. I'd much rather have a customizable action bar, as well as customizable key bindings.

    Fortunately, AoC will not be emulating this baffling inclusion to BDO's combat system.

    Also you cant see those properties in gameplay vids without learning them first.

    Then it is your unenviable task to explain how they add positively to the combat system. Perhaps there is another game with similar systems that can serve as a better example?


    Regardless, @Blackhearted, @Soulune, I do appreciate your thoughts, even as I continue to be a stubborn and cantankerous critic.

  • soulune said:
    I really don't want this whole discussion to be about only BDO's combat; does anyone have a different game they enjoyed combat in? 
    League of Legends
    Overwatch
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Archeage 

  • Seaber said:
    League of Legends
    Overwatch
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Archeage 

    Lots of different types of games here (MOBA, FPS, to MMORPG). What specifically about these games do you think Intrepid can bring into AoC? They all bring something really cool to the table.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    soulune said:
    Seaber said:
    League of Legends
    Overwatch
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Archeage 

    Lots of different types of games here (MOBA, FPS, to MMORPG). What specifically about these games do you think Intrepid can bring into AoC? They all bring something really cool to the table.
    Something that is good in one game may not be good in another game. AoC needs to have combat that fits in AoC. 

    The fast strategic combat in AA was the most enjoyable by far. It had the pace of LoL but would stay fresh due to the uncertainty of mmorpg fights.

    I think updated AA combat would fit very well in AoC. Why that is the case and what I think should be updated requires a much longer post.
  • I want some wrestling moves incorporated like the piledriver, the clothesline, and the figure four leg lock.
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