Action Combat vs Tab Targeting - An Inherent Disadvantage???

ArchivedUser

I have heard that you can select whether you will use action or tab targeting for combat.  Wouldn't choosing action combat offer an inherent disadvantage over auto targeting?

ArchivedUser

Hasil said:

I have heard that you can select whether you will use action or tab targeting for combat.  Wouldn't choosing action combat offer an inherent disadvantage over auto targeting?

Not necessarily. In my opinion, tab targeting will equal more predictable and roboticized movement, which can be easily predicted in pvp. I'll always prefer free-flow combat for pvp, that way my actions are less predictable. Attacks will always have a travel time, so tab-targeting will be pretty useless in pvp since you can just dodge.

Tab targeting will be ideal likely for mass farming of mobs and dungeons in some cases likely when you want it to be more automatic, but action will always be my go-to for survival in most or all cases. Plus I love the more in depth feel of action combat. I never feel hindered when I use it.

ArchivedUser

The post above explained pretty well but keep in mind that theyre trying to mesh the two systems so they both feel natural and are useful to use. They want both systems to be used in pvp as well and will try to make sure that going complete action or complete tab target won't be an advantage or disadvantage

ArchivedUser

Tab-targeting is easier to use but at the same time your movements will be restricted due to it, with action combat you can do more of these 'insane' moves but it takes more skill I guess ;3 

ArchivedUser

I thought both will be used but action combat will be tied to specific (types of) skills and tab-targeting for other skills. I thought the devs will decide which skills get which mechanic, not the players...no?

ArchivedUser

we just need to see how it plays out. tab-targeting might be better for archers and mage from a far and action combat for melee but don't know how it would play out yet will need to test when we can.

ArchivedUser

Hasil said:

I have heard that you can select whether you will use action or tab targeting for combat.  Wouldn't choosing action combat offer an inherent disadvantage over auto targeting?

You will select action skills or tab targetting skills, but the same skill is not available as a choice between action or tab target.

ArchivedUser

Action PvP/raid mechs
Tab PvE farm.
Remains to be seen if it will work.

I hope that devs will be willing to overhaul if tab targeting creates problems in PvP

ArchivedUser

Steven gave an example of this previously. His example/scenario was for a Ranger with a "charged shot." So the players will be able to pick and choose between the two. In some situations they would be better as Tab Target and others as Action.

Tab Targeted Charged Shot: His example was that this might be more powerful in single target damage. Maybe even having a snare or something attached depending on how you build it.

Action Combat Charged Shot: His example here would be the ability overall doing less single target damage but instead when you charge it and fire it fires in a "line" and can pierce multiple enemies. Potentially even having a burn over time or something similar.

So, in the example given, it's clear that each would have a benefit and it would really depend on the situation. Both, in concept, seem viable. It really just comes down to individual preference and need. I think most indications are that players will have a 75/25 split at most. So the combat sounds like it will truly be a hybrid form in it's final iteration.

Here is the link if you want to listen in yourself. The question starts at 1:08:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXIpLC__7fA 

ArchivedUser

Glory said:

Steven gave an example of this previously. His example/scenario was for a Ranger with a "charged shot." So the players will be able to pick and choose between the two. In some situations they would be better as Tab Target and others as Action.

Tab Targeted Charged Shot: His example was that this might be more powerful in single target damage. Maybe even having a snare or something attached depending on how you build it.

Action Combat Charged Shot: His example here would be the ability overall doing less single target damage but instead when you charge it and fire it fires in a "line" and can pierce multiple enemies. Potentially even having a burn over time or something similar.

So, in the example given, it's clear that each would have a benefit and it would really depend on the situation. Both, in concept, seem viable. It really just comes down to individual preference and need. I think most indications are that players will have a 75/25 split at most. So the combat sounds like it will truly be a hybrid form in it's final iteration.

Here is the link if you want to listen in yourself. The question starts at 1:08:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXIpLC__7fA 

The way he explains it makes the system sound interesting. However, I could not imagine the difficulty in balancing something so complex. Especially when you factor in the 64 different class combinations.

ArchivedUser

lollolkoko said:

The way he explains it makes the system sound interesting. However, I could not imagine the difficulty in balancing something so complex. Especially when you factor in the 64 different class combinations.

While there are 64 "classes" remember its 8 Primary Archetypes with 8 specializations/configurations of each Archetype.   

The Archetype is the role, the class is how you fill the role (ie do your job)

So the skill balanced will be on the way the secondary archetype tweaks your skill.   Since you don't get to pick skills from your secondary its not like we have to worry about someone taking the best 6 skills from their main and the 2 best from their secondary.  You get 0 skills from the secondary, so the balancing won't be too bad.   

ArchivedUser

I agree with lollolkoko overall. This game does appear to have balancing difficulties. Not just among the classes but even the weapon and armor sets. The amount of flexibility they are going to provide will lead to more potential outcomes/combinations. So Intrepid will have to keep a good eye on potential balancing.

However, I also will say that I like this approach more. I like the idea of a lot of flexibility and customization. Makes your character feel more personalized.

ArchivedUser

Glory said:

Steven gave an example of this previously. His example/scenario was for a Ranger with a "charged shot." So the players will be able to pick and choose between the two. In some situations they would be better as Tab Target and others as Action.

Tab Targeted Charged Shot: His example was that this might be more powerful in single target damage. Maybe even having a snare or something attached depending on how you build it.

Action Combat Charged Shot: His example here would be the ability overall doing less single target damage but instead when you charge it and fire it fires in a "line" and can pierce multiple enemies. Potentially even having a burn over time or something similar.

That sounds absolutely fascinating.

From what I've gathered from the very little info we've seen so far, action combat abilities will have a larger hit radius (and therefore total AoE damage potential) to balance against the 'auto-aim/auto-hit' nature of tab-targeting.

Of course, this is all speculation and guess-work at this point. I am very much looking forward to Alpha 1.

ArchivedUser

Action combat has always been inherently AOE focused. broad radius attacks are more or less mandatory to compensate for latency. That's why Action combat done poorly is just AOE spam and can feel sloppy. To accurate and it can punish the player experience.

there will most probably be some aim assist to bring Action on a similar peg to a locked/tab single target.

I don't know how they intend to hybridise both systems. do they intend to switch on the fly locked reticule/free camera and cursor?

time will tell.

ArchivedUser

lollolkoko said:

The way he explains it makes the system sound interesting. However, I could not imagine the difficulty in balancing something so complex. Especially when you factor in the 64 different class combinations.

Aside from what @Jahlon already said, that's why they'll focus on group balance and not class balance. With such an amount of variety a rock/paper/scissor between classes is inevitable.

Glory said:

However, I also will say that I like this approach more. I like the idea of a lot of flexibility and customization. Makes your character feel more personalized.

That's the thing. On the one hand people want to be able to play a tank in silk armor, fighting off monsters with a flower in one hand and a cooking pot in the other, yet (the same) players wonder when things are not balanced

Individuality contradicts balancing - let's hope IS find a good compromise.

ArchivedUser

c0ug4r said:

That's the thing. On the one hand people want to be able to play a tank in silk armor, fighting off monsters with a flower in one hand and a cooking pot in the other, yet (the same) players wonder when things are not balanced

Individuality contradicts balancing - let's hope IS find a good compromise.

I'm glad they're looking at balance in this way. I hope classes will have an identity and that their design encourages or even requires collaboration. I don't want characters to be able to do everything themselves and that the class is just a name, because >insertclasshere< can dps/heal/tank the hell out of everything and everyone.

ArchivedUser

I can honestly see the pros and cons of both, but I suspect that the "specialization" in one or the other is going to be the devs way to balance this out. 

Since roots/snares are going to be on the action side, I plan on going mostly all action.  This will be huge in pvp for keeping melee players out of range. 

However, I'm also going to at least use a few points/abilities in the tab targeting trees for a base attack of sorts.  This is all subject to testing of course, but I will use that tab targeting as a basic attack/damage while I use the action combat trees as the specials.  It's like a meta that compliments the use of the actual base attack/specials that you have on your hotbar.