Action Combat Hopes/Opinions

ArchivedUser

I know it is just the first stage, but these are general concerns enough that they can apply generally to most stages of development.


Grounded Movement - 

Not sure how else to describe this one exactly, but please try to keep the movement of characters more restrained and realistic feeling. In the video you can notice that the dodge roll and melee attack lunging is pretty significant. It really makes it look and feel bad to me.

Hopefully basic movement and dodging will be less dramatic and zoomy, and separate from what abilities can do. Those should be able to do more by comparison of course. It even makes movement based spells and abilities like that cool blink ability and charges seem more noticeable/empowering/class prideful  feeling if that makes sense. It just distinguishes it more. You can see it happen.

Essentially, please try to make it feel more restrained to reality to some degree, but still useful.

Vanilla WoW for example feels slower/grounded and smooth, but the abilities really distinguish what you can do and that feeling is what I am hoping this game achieves in this new action based way. I despise how all these new/failing mmo's like to make the character zoom around... Just feels goofy to me... Pretty important thing to nail even just this feeling considering how often you would use it.

Limited Weapon/Skill Bar Switching- 

Please do not let this be too big of a thing. If you do have it. Please make the switching limited. Kinda like how a warrior in WoW would have his main weapon and be able to switch to a limited ranged weapon option for dealing with runners or initiating from afar. Maybe having the secondary option being limited to just 1-3 abilities at most if it even has any, but having the main part of  your class fully achievable.

I hate how WoW has nearly eliminated the class identity in its game. You can do nearly anything other classes can do for the most part. All classes have access to at least some form of what other classes were known for which just sucks...


Hit Effects - 

They probably will, but just in case. I hope they add in hit effects so you can see, hear and feel if your effects hit rather than just seeing numbers show up. Make us know there was a impact.


Classic Camera Perspective - 

Is it possible to still get the classic camera perspective from a distance away rather than from right up close? I like the classic WoW camera for example. Maybe a middle ground between them? As a MMO I would hate to be zoomed in too much like that. I understand and like this, but if there is a way to achieve a middle ground that would be awesome (7+months to find out) xD...


Some Stationary Spells - 

Please add in some stationary spells too, ones that make you feel like you are summoning something big. I get and like the movement, but having some that do require more concentration and channeling in place or at a slower pace would be a good idea and potentially help balance some too. High end skills for example like summoning a flame tornado for example, but smaller skills you move just fine, and maybe some medium ranged you have to slow down movement a bit as you cast.

It makes the thing your casting stand out from the other abilities a tad, and makes them feel more special and even intimidating if its against you. The oh shit moment comes out and you have to stop that guy fast, or prepare to avoid it unless you want to take a major blow.


Jumping Less Repeatable (no bunny hopping) - 

Please make it so that you cannot spam jumping like that... Just a small delay or something to make it feel more grounded to reality/gravity and weight. If you can just keep bunny hoping so much it would really ruin some of the immersion for me. Have a badass and fun fight and see some dude just bouncing around kills the fun mood for me. (Personal thing against bunny hopping in general...)

ArchivedUser

Im quite sure the physics of the game are not there yet.
Low gravity jump, dodge and other stuff will probably be fixed with them.

Overall I think these are just alpha stuff and IS being a smart team these are likely on the workbench already

Never seen this good team before.
High communication, skilled devs.
 My only concern is theyll try to please too many people and the original vision gets lost.

ArchivedUser

In my opinion the combat in wow is just boring, most range classes stand in place like some turret and just pull of attacks (especially the mage classes) in regards to making some spells stationary that should only be really BIG spells tbh i agree with most of this though :>

ArchivedUser

To me the combat video looked like a MOBA.  However, I'm willing to try it out.  One of the attractions for me when I first discovered Ashes was tab targeting.  But, I will play Alpha 1 and see if I can adapt.

ArchivedUser

The physics is not what I am talking about. It is the fact that you can see the person hoping over and over again in a pretty quick fashion, and that they make the players zoom around far too much in the movement. I just hope they restrain that a bit. Making the zoom/lung/dash/rolls sooooo dramatic, far and repeatable, and that the jump has more of a landing delay where he has to land first and prepare before another jump.

They are clearly tightly controlling these aspects through script. it is all about dialing it down to the right level. It won't break the game in these changes, but just make it feel a bit more polished and comfortable.

It may even make it more balanced in some situations. Tab targeting is already a problem to balance vs action combat with the potential for one to miss too easily while the other is more like a lock on system. Add on bunny hopping and it becomes even more difficult in a dumb and unnecessary way...

My changes for the most part are minor ideas are minor things and only a few really change anything more than number values. Like instead of dashing at distance/speed 8.5 it will dash at 6.5. If you jump, after landing it takes 2-3 seconds before being able to jump again instead of like .5 or 1 or whatever.

ArchivedUser

I agree with most of your points to an extent. BDO combat is a gigantic turn-off for me. Between the characters zipping around and the ridiculous numbers spam when attacks land, the combat looks spastic and ugly.

Grounded Attacks:  I had no real issue with the dodge/roll in the action combat demo. I expect they will smooth out any issues with the animations, but the distance did not seem overly large. After all, some of those spells had a significant AoE range.

Those being sent to Verra are supposed to be the absolute best. As such, I have no real issue with them moving about like top level athletes (or, like the top level athletes they undoubtedly are).

Weapon Switching:  My understanding is that players will only have 8 or so slots available in their action bar, and each attack will be weapon-specific. So, for instance, if you place 6 bow-specific attacks on the action bar, there will only be room for 2 sword-specific attacks left. If you wanted to fit in an additional sword-based attack, you'd need to sacrifice one of your bow-based attacks.

Stationary Spells:  A mix of stationary and mobile spells would be ideal... at least for spell casters. I definitely agree with you on this point.

Bunny Hopping:  I love bunny hopping. I don't do it much myself in combat (outside of combat is a different issue), but I definitely enjoy seeing others hop around like demented bunnies.

Good post. I don't agree with all of your positions, but you definitely started a good discussion. 

ArchivedUser

Bunny hoping is ridiculous and adds no skill.
Could be removed for aesthetic reasons.

Weapon swapping. I have 2 visions
1)Main weapon which combined with the class makes the identity of the playstyle.
Secondary weapon. Not an actual weapon but more like a tool for certain class abilitie chains. Here are 3 examples.

Eg. Warrior. Two swords on his hips. One greatsword on his back.
The main weapon is twin swords with which the warrior fight. After performing two chained abilities the warrior sparta kicks the opponent to the ground. Next ability chain animation that lasts1.5s: warrior puts away twin swords and pulls out the greatsword as he slowly walks up to the opponent on the ground and performs a strong atk.

Eg 2. Archer main weapon bow on the back, secondary weapon dagger on boots.
Opponent gap closses on archer. Archer ducks down to avoid atk, next chain ability unlocks, archrr pulls dagger from boot or belt and stabs opponent on foot, rooting them. Third chain abilty unlocks, archer pulls arrow and unleashes in the face of the rooted enemy.

Eg 3(PvE). Group is fighting hords of mobs. Mage is blasting enemies with staff. Group will be overun by the hord soon. 
Mage stucks staff on ground gandalf style, second chain unlocks, mage selects From Secondary Weapons a Tome, chain strapped on his hip (could have selected an orb for different ability). After selection third chain unlocks, mage reads from Tome performs a massive AoE ability saving the group.

This is a system with secondary weapons that are tied to chain abilities(single player combo).


2)Actual weapon swapping. Warrior character. Twin swords on hips. Greatsword in back.
10 ability slot bar for Twin swords.
10 slot  bar for greatsword.
Weapon swapping animation takes 2 or 3 seconds in which the character sheaths twin swords and draws greatsword.
The duration of weapon swap ensures that swapping betwwen weapons is used after judging what set of abilities you need for a specific situation and thst yiu are willing to sacrifice 2-3 seconds of valnurability to adapt to the circumstances. 
It also prevents from weapons being treated like a couple BiS abilities that can be swapped every split of a second but as an actual playstyle.
I also hate how weapons put out of thin air.

ArchivedUser

I would like to see normal attacks dealing dmg/effect at the very end of the animation.

I would like to see abilities deal dmg/effect at the end of their animation.

I would like to see blocking, dodging, leaping, counter attacking overide normal attacks and abilities, cancelling cometelly their animation/damage/effect. Completelly.

This would make the combat really action packed and based on decision making and quick reflexes, rather that glitchy button mushing Meta rotations.

ArchivedUser

I would like to see:
Unique debuffs tied to certain classes
Unique resistances (not complete immunity but rather high resistance, or increased protection) against certain effects, tied to certain classes and their distinct identity.

ArchivedUser

@TricksyKitsune I see what u meant now.
I agree with not being able to jump instantly when u land. Not with 2-3s but with making it more realistic.
Im not familiar with bunnyhop term and thought it meant high jumps.

Overall the movement seems still unrealistic and clunky but considering its alpha phase with over a year to release its ****ing awesome.
Theyre going for realistic feel in a lot of functions and doubt theyll skip combat.

ArchivedUser

My opinion of the action combat system is that it is "Too Elder Scrollsy, missing punch."

By "Too Elder Scrollsy" I mean melee attacks and spells are just there, swinging blindly away while a number informs you you have hit. the melee attacks seem plain, and might need some diversity from the "swing from the left, swing from the right" thing, or we are going to see way too much of it in pvp, where mobile combat is a given.

Also, There is little to no reaction to receiving a hit, which is pretty common in Elder Scrolls games, and make it all look wierd, imo. I'm not sure if those meteor attacks hit the player or not, but im the melee and arrow fighting I did see the player not reacting at all to taking damage.  I realize there is a balance to be struck with action combat like this, but this isn't an fps.  Draw ins, blowback, positional based attacks, stuns and roots are all part of combat, and the character should be animated and voiced as like they are in the thick of it, instead of a little hud thing telling you.

ArchivedUser

gb1990gaming said:

Eg. Warrior. Two swords on his hips. One greatsword on his back.

The main weapon is twin swords with which the warrior fight. After performing two chained abilities the warrior sparta kicks the opponent to the ground. Next ability chain animation that lasts1.5s: warrior puts away twin swords and pulls out the greatsword as he slowly walks up to the opponent on the ground and performs a strong atk.

Eg 2. Archer main weapon bow on the back, secondary weapon dagger on boots.
Opponent gap closses on archer. Archer ducks down to avoid atk, next chain ability unlocks, archrr pulls dagger from boot or belt and stabs opponent on foot, rooting them. Third chain abilty unlocks, archer pulls arrow and unleashes in the face of the rooted enemy.

Eg 3(PvE). Group is fighting hords of mobs. Mage is blasting enemies with staff. Group will be overun by the hord soon. 
Mage stucks staff on ground gandalf style, second chain unlocks, mage selects From Secondary Weapons a Tome, chain strapped on his hip (could have selected an orb for different ability). After selection third chain unlocks, mage reads from Tome performs a massive AoE ability saving the group.

Examples one and two sound like something that belongs in a single player game. Particularly the slow walk to a downed opponent.

Keep in mind that a lot of the combat in AoC will be against fellow humans. Removing player agency for the sake of cool cinematics has no place in an MMO.

ArchivedUser

Nefelia said:

gb1990gaming said:

Eg. Warrior. Two swords on his hips. One greatsword on his back.

The main weapon is twin swords with which the warrior fight. After performing two chained abilities the warrior sparta kicks the opponent to the ground. Next ability chain animation that lasts1.5s: warrior puts away twin swords and pulls out the greatsword as he slowly walks up to the opponent on the ground and performs a strong atk.

Eg 2. Archer main weapon bow on the back, secondary weapon dagger on boots.
Opponent gap closses on archer. Archer ducks down to avoid atk, next chain ability unlocks, archrr pulls dagger from boot or belt and stabs opponent on foot, rooting them. Third chain abilty unlocks, archer pulls arrow and unleashes in the face of the rooted enemy.

Eg 3(PvE). Group is fighting hords of mobs. Mage is blasting enemies with staff. Group will be overun by the hord soon. 
Mage stucks staff on ground gandalf style, second chain unlocks, mage selects From Secondary Weapons a Tome, chain strapped on his hip (could have selected an orb for different ability). After selection third chain unlocks, mage reads from Tome performs a massive AoE ability saving the group.

Examples one and two sound like something that belongs in a single player game. Particularly the slow walk to a downed opponent.

Keep in mind that a lot of the combat in AoC will be against fellow humans. Removing player agency for the sake of cool cinematics has no place in an MMO.

That is a fair point.  which makes stuff like the ability for players to make screenshots, videos, and other methods of commemorating history and feats, in order to make their own lore, important.

ArchivedUser

Glowingwren said:

That is a fair point.  which makes stuff like the ability for players to make screenshots, videos, and other methods of commemorating history and feats, in order to make their own lore, important.

I've been using Nvidia's Shadowplay to capture video footage of my gaming for two or so years now. I am aware that there are other options as well, though I've been too pre-occupied to properly investigate these options.

Maybe someone better informed could elaborate on the options available to players.

ArchivedUser

SO far from the action combat stream that was recently released, I think there is one vital item that needs to be added to action combat, and that is some type of target focusing HUD artifact. What I mean is either a reticle or an outline on a player's target. I say this for a couple of reasons. 

1) It allows a player to know exactly who they are targeting with their spells, but it doesn't necessarily have to be locked on the target. For example, in Warframe when I'm in the Plains of Eidolon, I can fight multiple mobs and target specific mobs with a reticle that is placed in the middle of the screen. This is great for me so that I can actually shot my gun or swing my sword at who I want to target, without having to lock on to the target in order to do so.

2) Like those of us in the gaming community who are hearing impaired, there are also those among us who are sight impaired. We need a way to differentiate between our focus and other visual background noise. A reticle that is adjustable in size, color, and/or brightness, or an outline on a target that can be adjusted would make it that much better while playing Ashes of Creation for those of us who have issues seeing. There are more sight-impaired players in this world than many would think.

I think if the devs would really put some thought into adding this element to action combat, it would go a long way into having a better gameplay experience for all players of the game.

ArchivedUser

@Kaeg
There will be a reticle. Right before they displayed the combat video Steven told us that the UI, including the reticle, was not shown in the video because they are still working on making it look nice. 

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

@Kaeg
There will be a reticle. Right before they displayed the combat video Steven told us that the UI, including the reticle, was not shown in the video because they are still working on making it look nice. 

I hope we can adjust the center of the screen in relation to where the character stands.