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Rare loot, grind hard, win easy.

Hello guys. As a backer who started playing MMOs 13 years ago and played them non stop every day I can say that I've had some experience with this genre.  And in all those years what I started to hate about mmos was the loot/gear system that modern mmos brought us. Take Tera for example. You start playing, and every time you level up to a certain level for example 10-18-24-28-36 etc, you simply enter dungeon and get yourself a new weapon. And then you enchant it to your heart content because its super easy. I grew fond of games like the good old Lineage 2 where you could buy low-medium quality armor/weapons to a certain level (and damn they were not cheap even for shitty items) in a city but then you had to grind your way to a better, high level equipment. Dropping full item from mobs or even parts for the item (for crafting) was hard AF. Sometimes you even had to have special class character with you in party who specialised in looting items from mobs. And if you finally managed to get your hands on the high quality item you wanted you got a great deal of advantage over others. You could see the result of your effort. What Im trying to say that in this game I would love to see some of those "good ol times" things that seperated passionate people from the plebs who simply play 1 hour every 2 days and the devs give them a handicap by ****, simplified dungeons, pathetic crafting and incredibly simple grind. I would love to see the grind to win mechanics. And remember when certain items were so rare only 5 people had them on the whole server? Damn those were the times.... What do you guys think?
PS.: I was out of the loop for a long while so Im not sure if the devs mentioned something like that or not.
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Comments

  • I do know that Steven said there will be legendary items, so rare only one might have it on the entire server(maybe one on the planet due to the node system changing the world), also all items will eventually break down and be destroyed(even legendary). So the "grind" and crafting will be in depth and you can get your rares you are looking for. As far as the progression system of just receiving items, that I am not sure although I know a big pillar is economy in their model and I highly doubt they would go down that route if they want full time crafters to be a thing"which they said they do"
    Just my notes of what I know.
    Sgtfire
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    I would appreciate it, if I would find a proper loot in the dungeon and there can also drop great items! That's my way of playing. Hard fights = good loot. In addition very good craft items. For example, socked with super rare loot stones and runes of raids, boss mobs and dungeons ...; and it works. ( for me well 😊 )

    So you can keep your beloved weapon. Assuming she has 12 sockets, then you're just looking for new runes and stones. And if, for example, you have a certain combination of these sockets (example: 12 white star diamonds), you have an additional effect on your weapon, "white star fire" (also visible effect) plus increased values of XYZ and effect`s XYZ.
    I should become a game developer. Haha.

    Different combinations of stones and runes give = infinite possibilities of effects and improvements. I am a genius. I get money for this idea? 😘





  • So you want Ashes to cater to people that can play Ashes non stop every day?
    I know your life is probably super amazing, but most people have to work.

    I don't think the game should be simplified or made easy for those who only play so many hours a week. That's on them, and they should expect to have to put in the same number of hours as everyone else. Nobody should be expected to have to play Ashes as a full time job to get benefits either. There are likely many compromises between the two extremes.

    I liked grinding for gear when I could stay home all summer and just game. Not anymore. I look for more meaningful game play. Not immediate pay off game play, just more meaningful.

    IS has mentioned they would like to avoid anything that feels like a grind/requirement. I like their thoughts on legendary items, there should only be a few at most.
  • things that seperated passionate people from the plebs who simply play 1 hour every 2 days

    ...

    Plebs? Really?

    ...

    No. I find this attitude...unfortunate...and absolutely do not want the game designed around it. If you are looking for a grind-to-win game you know where BDO is. I've heard that BDO has a serious retention problem due to the insurmountable advantage veteran players have over newer players, so I don't understand why you would want AoC to suffer from the same flaw.

    I do support the idea of a player's effort resulting in significant financial reward within the game. But I absolutely do not want to see super rare RNG-based super-weapons dropped. That type of drop is a MMO relic that needs to go.

  • I have been an avid crafter on SWG and one of the main appeals of this game is the player economy and the crafted gear being best in slot. So why dungeon grind etc?  Well from what I can remember (taking into account there has not been much discussion on crafting yet) they intend to have lootable components required to to be given to a crafting specialist in the item you want made.  The legendary one per server type things will be loot equivalent to best in slot but have unique appearance FX and possibly unique skill/trait but will not give any significant combat advantage.  That at least is how I understand it.  With that in mind it is probable that 20 hr a day players will get the legendaries but that will not give them a long term combat advantage over the players who cant play that much.  It is just a speed to achievement situation. Which in my opinion makes sense.   
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    I think there should be items in the game that are really hard to get, but people should be able to get them, because they are good players, and not because they play 24/7.
    Imagine, you work 8 or more hours a day, you come home and you get PK-ed by a NEET who dos not work and has all the time in the wolrd, is a worse player than you are, but has better gear because has more time in the game...
    Personally I would be frustrated, and would stop playing, and with that I would stop paying the sub as well.
  • Trem said:
    I think there should be items in the game that are really hard to get, but people should be able to get them, because they are good players, and not because they play 24/7.
    Imagine, you work 8 or more hours a day, you come home and you get PK-ed by a NEET who dos not work and has all the time in the wolrd, is a worse player than you are, but has better gear because has more time in the game...
    Personally I would be frustrated, and would stop playing, and with that I would stop paying the sub as well.
    And how can ppl get them best? If they drop random. everytime you play, you have the chance, there drop`s anything. And you can craft good items also.
    So you can choice, will I have the loot way or you lvl your crafter.
    I like a game more where I can get much cool items, amor and weapons.
    And not such a boring always the same thing.
  • Well, I would prefer that the Legendary items would drop of bosses with legendary difficulty, Which you only can kill if you are a good player, and not if you play much.
    I mean I am an RPG player and and I would rather say:

    - Oh yea, we killed the legendary chaos Demon who wanted to destroy the continent! And we took his sword, it is the most awesome sword that I have ever seen!

    than:

    - Oh, I killed 3000 rabbits, and one of them had the sword of a legendary Demon... How did it get there? How did it even fit?


    Which one is cooler? :smiley:

  • Trem said:
    Well, I would prefer that the Legendary items would drop of bosses with legendary difficulty, Which you only can kill if you are a good player, and not if you play much.
    I mean I am an RPG player and and I would rather say:

    - Oh yea, we killed the legendary chaos Demon who wanted to destroy the continent! And we took his sword, it is the most awesome sword that I have ever seen!

    than:

    - Oh, I killed 3000 rabbits, and one of them had the sword of a legendary Demon... How did it get there? How did it even fit?


    Which one is cooler? :smiley:

    Both not. Because --> I would never wear demonic blades. 😱
    But I like the version, if the good player is able to get the bossmob down and
    then grab the loot. 🙂
    And I like too, if a game is equal for all.
    But I don`t like, boring dungeons or less or no loot..😱😱😱
    And btw, if the GOOD player always will win, you will have so or so, many others, who will cry also.., because they can`t play so good.
    Ok but they can craft, maybe that is really a good alternative option.
    So what.
    It is always a balance act.^^






  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @Trem I understand your point and agree you should have to do very difficult things to get the legendary and I'm sure that will be the case I think that I.S. want Legondaries to be one of a kind not one that everyone gets eventually.  I'm sure they will have top tier weapon schematics etc that demonstrate you are awesome enough to kill that crazy tough elite world boss NPC monster with a group of 40 and get lucky enough to get the loot drop.  But obviously not being one of a kind means these will not be as awesome to own as the one of a kind types.  I sadly only play a couple of hours a day and therefor will just have to accept I wont get the unique stuff but can sleep peacefully knowing that If I am a better player than the owner I will still be able to slap the fancy pants legendary owner around the battle field with my master-crafted weapon.
    I would like to add a caveat to that last comment.  I am an extremely average PVPer so in all likelihood I won't be slapping anyone around the battlefield regardless of weapon level.  :/
  • I expect that AoC will be harder than WoW to acquire great loot but easier than EQ1 which involved camping for weeks sometimes. 
  • Fortune said:

    Both not. Because --> I would never wear demonic blades. 😱
    But I like the version, if the good player is able to get the bossmob down and
    then grab the loot. 🙂
    And I like too, if a game is equal for all.
    But I don`t like, boring dungeons or less or no loot..😱😱😱
    And btw, if the GOOD player always will win, you will have so or so, many others, who will cry also.., because they can`t play so good.
    Ok but they can craft, maybe that is really a good alternative option.
    So what.
    It is always a balance act.^^

    ////

    You cant have both good game and equal game. This game is going to be monthly subscription. That means that 90% of the community will be hardcore players who play more than 3 hours a day. Thus those players, veterans from other MMOs, who keep the game going by their monthly subscription, will quit the game if its going to be another mediocre MMO where "everything is balanced because people are butthurt about not having top gear since start and getting owned by people who spent hours to get excelent gear". The game needs to be challenging. I understand that in this day and age where people expect everything going their way because they cry long enough, its hard for some people to understand that easy games are shitty. But thats exactly the reason why MMO genre suffered as much as it did. Pay to win everywhere, guides, simple dungeons...yuck.








  • N1trix said:
    I would love to see the grind to win mechanics.
    There’s no such thing.  The only reason to force people to grind is if you don’t have enough real content to occupy a person’s time. Grinding is losing.

    Not that I want an “easy mode”, where you just look up the gear you want so you know which dungeon to walk into and casually grab it.  That’s pretty lame (and I play TERA so I know what you mean).  There should be rewards that require effort to get.

    But there’s a reason people don’t make games like the original Everquest anymore.  Game design has improved and evolved since then, and MMOs aren’t the sole purview of shut-ins living in their parents’ basements anymore.  People with lives also enjoy them.  That’s going to be the largest potential market for AoC.  Cutting out normal people to appeal to hardcore 1337 d00dz would be suicide.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    This entire thread is a dissapointment of the direction the human race has progressed...


    I digress.


    Anyways to answer your statement/questionable "grind". Absolutely no. There should be a max level gear that takes a certain attainable level of materials to craft. Improving the gear to a "stronger color" should take materials that do require some grinding. But hell no not weeks worths of time. 

    You want a game to succeed? Appeal to a working class audience who actually supports the game. Or all you get are kids and man-children with little to no societal contribution.


    Now Steven HAS stated there will be legendary items/weapons in the game
    that will be server specific and limited. Those apparently require lots of resources and GROUP support.


    That is totally fine as it requires other people who support you, and lots of resources.

    Which is GREAT. Because that means people with snarky uppity supiriority complexes wont get it like this post. "Plebs" indeed.



  • Perseus01 said:
    N1trix said:
    This entire thread is a dissapointment of the direction the human race has progressed...



    Ikr, its incredible how many people are nowadays butthurt by simple words....world of snowflakes...we need another world war to cleanse the world of that human garbage...

    What Steven said is great. Something similar to what I was looking for. But I hope it will give you an edge over others. For example in Guild wars 2 its incredible hard to get legendary skin but never the less, its just a skin. I hope AoC legendaries will have some great stats to back their rarity.
    Yet, you play the guinea pig and fall right into Satan's trap,  degrading your own species. Your no better than the "shit". 
    I can already tell the community of this game will be awesome ^^
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    N1trix said:
    This entire thread is a dissapointment of the direction the human race has progressed...



    Ikr, its incredible how many people are nowadays butthurt by simple words....world of snowflakes...we need another world war to cleanse the world of that human garbage...

    What Steven said is great. Something similar to what I was looking for. But I hope it will give you an edge over others. For example in Guild wars 2 its incredible hard to get legendary skin but never the less, its just a skin. I hope AoC legendaries will have some great stats to back their rarity.
    You are a really great person there pal. Cant wait to see who will help you acheive it 😂



  • N1trix said:
    Perseus01 said:
    N1trix said:
    This entire thread is a dissapointment of the direction the human race has progressed...



    Ikr, its incredible how many people are nowadays butthurt by simple words....world of snowflakes...we need another world war to cleanse the world of that human garbage...

    What Steven said is great. Something similar to what I was looking for. But I hope it will give you an edge over others. For example in Guild wars 2 its incredible hard to get legendary skin but never the less, its just a skin. I hope AoC legendaries will have some great stats to back their rarity.
    Yet, you play the guinea pig and fall right into Satan's trap,  degrading your own species. Your no better than the "shit". 
    I can already tell the community of this game will be awesome ^^
    It really is, no sarcasm.
  • N1trix said:
    Perseus01 said:
    N1trix said:
    This entire thread is a dissapointment of the direction the human race has progressed...



    Ikr, its incredible how many people are nowadays butthurt by simple words....world of snowflakes...we need another world war to cleanse the world of that human garbage...

    What Steven said is great. Something similar to what I was looking for. But I hope it will give you an edge over others. For example in Guild wars 2 its incredible hard to get legendary skin but never the less, its just a skin. I hope AoC legendaries will have some great stats to back their rarity.
    Yet, you play the guinea pig and fall right into Satan's trap,  degrading your own species. Your no better than the "shit". 
    I can already tell the community of this game will be awesome ^^
    Like any comunity, there are bumps but you have to take the good and the bad in life
  • You must not have seen his previous comment @nagash lol
  • You must not have seen his previous comment @nagash lol
    Yeah he flamed out big time.  I think there’s no creation with those ashes.  :o
  • You must not have seen his previous comment @nagash lol
    Oh I see.... 
  • I've said it many times in many places: My observation over the years is that the highest quality people inevitably gravitate to geekdom in one form or another. Lamentably, those quality people aren't the only geeks in the world.
  • see this is why I like undead more 
  • nagash said:
    see this is why I like undead more 
    There is plenty of corpses in the local graveyard, want some ?
  • nagash said:
    see this is why I like undead more 
    There is plenty of corpses in the local graveyard, want some ?

  • nagash said:
    nagash said:
    see this is why I like undead more 
    There is plenty of corpses in the local graveyard, want some ?

    This takes me back to my days of playing Funeral Quest. XD
  • N1trix said:
    Fortune said:

    Both not. Because --> I would never wear demonic blades. 😱
    But I like the version, if the good player is able to get the bossmob down and
    then grab the loot. 🙂
    And I like too, if a game is equal for all.
    But I don`t like, boring dungeons or less or no loot..😱😱😱
    And btw, if the GOOD player always will win, you will have so or so, many others, who will cry also.., because they can`t play so good.
    Ok but they can craft, maybe that is really a good alternative option.
    So what.
    It is always a balance act.^^

    ////

    You cant have both good game and equal game. This game is going to be monthly subscription. That means that 90% of the community will be hardcore players who play more than 3 hours a day. Thus those players, veterans from other MMOs, who keep the game going by their monthly subscription, will quit the game if its going to be another mediocre MMO where "everything is balanced because people are butthurt about not having top gear since start and getting owned by people who spent hours to get excelent gear". The game needs to be challenging. I understand that in this day and age where people expect everything going their way because they cry long enough, its hard for some people to understand that easy games are shitty. But thats exactly the reason why MMO genre suffered as much as it did. Pay to win everywhere, guides, simple dungeons...yuck.








    😂. Well, ...

    For me personally, a game is good, if it is not so easy. Very good indeed.
    But we have to think about the others.
    So how do you create a balance?
    In a way, for the people who can not play so many lessons every day?
    Let her succeed while she's making things. That may need a group,
    to get resources, but not permanently dependent on rushing non-stop through one dungeon after the next.
    Because if this does not happen, nothing will change.
    There have to be several ways to succeed in a game.
    Otherwise certain groups of players will be quickly disappointed and that will unfortunately be the biggest part. In addition, a variety of games enriches everyone.


    In the end I'm glad that I do not have to create such concepts. 😁



  • This is the age old discussion, and there truly hasn't been a happy middle ground yet :(

    In a loot-drop game, you can't really give crafted items the upper hand, or no one will run the content.

    If it's a crafted loot game, its really not fun running the content for "components" to use in crafting or upgrading later, in the same way as getting "items" to use now.

    The best experiences have been on either extreme of that.

    One interesting thing Albion online has done is that even drops from PvE NPCs are player made. The mechanic is that there's a black market these can be sold into when you make them, and then that's where the "NPCs get them from"

    https://albiononline.com/en/news/video-black-market-feature

    The other thing Ashes has going for it is that things will break. And if they break permanently, people will think twice about just always using their "legendary" item for day to day purposes... maybe save it for more important fights or content. I'm not sure that's "fun" either but would need some testing.


  • SWG had a good solution to your dilemma @Lethality NPCs dropped components and schematics that had to be taken to a crafter to make and the High End Group Pve content rewarded jewelry Which made a significant difference to your power.  The crafters were always busy the economy when the game was busy was good and there was still a reason to do group content. 
    Now I whole heatedly agree from a role playing point of view killing the dragon and raiding it's stash and finding the hardest weapon ever imagined is very very cool.

    In game terms tho everybody will eventually kill that dragon and get that sword and now everyone has the hardest sword ever imagined.... Well except the crafters who are sitting in their empty stores after months of collecting the best materials wondering if anyone would like a slightly crap sword to kill stuff with.

    If I remember correctly, in Ashes, crafters will be able to repair stuff too prolonging the life of really cool stuff.  But in Ashes the really cool stuff will be unique and not many people will be able to get it and it will be truly legendary  but they also want the crafters of note to be legendary too.  If you want the best potions go see Merlin, if you want the best hammer go and see Dwriven if you want the best sword go and see Cold Steel Stanly.  I for one am going all in on that vision of a crafting system.  *rubs hands together and ponders "shall I reserve PJ or Cold Steel Stanly" hmmmmm
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @PJ_Rydecker

    Yes that's true, SWG felt good in that regard! And as if on cue, Jeffrey just invoked SWG as an inspiration to the crafting system on the live Twitch stream in Germany just now!

    I'm really excited to see whatever shape it takes :)
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